twisted thinking

[October]

I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc. We're groomed by our predators to be trusting and open! It makes it so much easier to gut the oyster if its shell is never closed. To this day, I'm stunned when I discover just what manipulative creeps some people are.

When someone finds the recipe for that, post it to me please .

I think the place I would start from is that Ns do not know the difference between objective truth and objective non-truth, because they have no objectivity.  Everything is subjective, and therefore they are incapable of lying (in their own minds) because whatever they say, they actually believe at the point of saying it.  They make no attempt to connect their experience with reality, because their experience is reality.  And if we see something different, that is our problem.  Nothing to do with them.

Just as God created the world by speaking the words 'let there be ...', so the godlike Ns create reality by saying what is real to them, and expect the mortals around to believe them.  And it happens that way enough of the time for them to fall for the idea that they can actually create reality, and manipulate truth, to suit themselves.

Lets face it, they are surrounded by people who allow this to happen, with one or two of us black sheep standing looking on, saying 'that is absolute poppycock'.  Why should they listen to us while the worshippers remain?     

[Mati]

Stormy

I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc.

It is such hard work to have to learn to communicate in a different culture. I found that when I was with him, I started to become careless about what was the truth. It had all become so vague. It was like I was living in a fog. I could never get him to be exact about anything so things just kind of became other-wordly. Did anyone one else feel like this?

some estimates are that more than half of people are N to some degree

That is just too scary.

mudpuppy

Usually its about five to twenty degrees off center; just enough to shift the blame off of the N and/or to make him look either the victim or the hero.
You can't laugh off the 5 to 20 degree ones because they're the ones other people believe.

Yes I have noticed this. Do they do it by instinct or is it a skill they learn do you think? 

October

 

Ns on the other hand expect everyone around them to lie, and so believe no-one, and think (if they think at all) everyone as hypocritical as themselves.

Yes I have noticed this with nH. He did not trust anyone at all.  I remember having a disagreement with my brother about this. He got angry when I said that not everyone lies.

They make no attempt to connect their experience with reality, because their experience is reality.  And if we see something different, that is our problem.  Nothing to do with them.

Just as God created the world by speaking the words 'let there be ...', so the godlike Ns create reality by saying what is real to them, and expect the mortals around to believe them.  And it happens that way enough of the time for them to fall for the idea that they can actually create reality, and manipulate truth, to suit themselves.

Lets face it, they are surrounded by people who allow this to happen, with one or two of us black sheep standing looking on, saying 'that is absolute poppycock'.  Why should they listen to us while the worshippers remain?

Wow, you guys have an amazing understanding. I have always thought that people can be divided neatly into two types, those who want the truth and those who do not, and this explains why.  Are all personailty disorders like this do you think or is it just narcissism? 

 

[bunny]

I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc. We're groomed by our predators to be trusting and open! It makes it so much easier to gut the oyster if its shell is never closed. To this day, I'm stunned when I discover just what manipulative creeps some people are.

And then I pingpong back to the other position and assume that everybody is a lying scheming con artist and there is no one righteous, no, not one. According to some experts, that's not as extreme a position as I wish it were... some estimates are that more than half of people are N to some degree... but it should be possible to believe that, accept it, and go on with your life with your armor in place, without always feeling so bad that things are that way.


A person will tell you about their "issues" through their words and behavior. By observing a person closely, you can tell whether they are manipulative, deceptive, exploitive, and so forth. They usually give off major clues immediately. I think it's a lot about discernment and observation. I don't see any reason to trust someone unless they've earned it.

bunny

[October]

I have always thought that people can be divided neatly into two types, those who want the truth and those who do not, and this explains why.  Are all personailty disorders like this do you think or is it just narcissism? 

I don't know enough about other personality disorders.  I only know about NPD by looking at my family.   

In the outside (non family) world, there are people who seek to know the truth about everyone but themselves, and there are the braver kind, who seek to know the truth about themselves first.  Most people here fall into the latter category.   

Inside my family nobody wants any kind of truth.  What they want is the status quo; our family superior to every other family, our behaviour the norm; the benchmark by which everyone else is judged and found wanting.  And the Supreme Judge is my mum.  There is no awareness of any other reality than this one, and no desire to accept that reality, if it is ever glimpsed.  There is too much for them all to lose, including each person's sense of self as part of the whole, because the whole family is so enmeshed that nobody is able to survive alone.  I believe that as part of that there is no such thing as individual identity in my family.

I am the most isolated person in the whole family (and the nearest thing to an individual), and I struggle to survive, but I manage.  Not well, but I manage.  Nobody else is brave enough to even try.  They do not commend my struggle.  They ignore it and pretend it is not happening.    

[Stormchild]

I found this on the Web about a year ago, hurrah it's still there, and I think it's pretty relevant to the discussion at this point. It's about the "Pathological Dishonesty Disease" and how slowly and subtly Ns can weave a web of deception and how easy it is for others to be pulled in.

http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levbill1.html

[missm]

Inside my family nobody wants any kind of truth.  What they want is the status quo; our family superior to every other family, our behaviour the norm; the benchmark by which everyone else is judged and found wanting.  And the Supreme Judge is my mum.  There is no awareness of any other reality than this one, and no desire to accept that reality, if it is ever glimpsed.

Are you sure we didn't grow up in the same house?    I think the only difference I would put if I had written that is "Mom" instead of "Mum".  So glad to know that others are struggling with the same thing - it really helps me move away from questioning my own reality and just living in it - as far away from theirs as possible.  Thanks for posting this.

[longtire]

Stromchild, great link.  I found this link from that site.  This is the best description by far that I have found of the situation with my wife. It hit so close that I cried while reading it.  It gets a little confusing, but she is the self-titled "victim" and I am the labelled "victimizer."  Talk about twisted thinking...  I am glad I am no longer either a vitcim or a target, but getting back to being just a human being again.

http://exploringpersonalitydisorders.1hwy.com/#Victim

[October]

Are you sure we didn't grow up in the same house?    I think the only difference I would put if I had written that is "Mom" instead of "Mum".  So glad to know that others are struggling with the same thing - it really helps me move away from questioning my own reality and just living in it - as far away from theirs as possible.  Thanks for posting this.

Some days I am not sure of anything at all.     But if you did grow up in my family, then I am heartily sorry for it.

Re what you said about 'mum', my brothers and I have always called her this, but when she signs cards she always puts 'mam', yet we have never ever called her that.  How weird is that?  Lol!!!!!!  Dad uses it too, if he writes from them both, he puts 'mam and dad'.  'Mam' is what they each called their mothers.  ('Mam' is a N England variant, whereas we were all brought up in the south, where 'mum' is normal.)

And incidentally, she never puts 'love from'.  Just 'from'.  Speaks volumes.

They have absolutely no awareness whatever of reality.

[Stormchild]

Thanks for that link, Long - and for the thanks -

Yeah, I recognize waaay too many people in that description too. Some of the pot-stirrers and Ns I work with... as well as my own charmin' mother.

And I'm left shaking my head in amazement, again, that so many people take the bait. Jump onto the malicious slanderer's bandwagon, and never seem to recognize the malice and slander for what they are. They're looking right at it. They could easily see what it really is. They just have to want truth more than the 'fun' of playing 'let's all hate Judy'. Or whoever.

Jeez Louise... how many people ever, emotionally, get out of middle school?

Thanks again, Long. I'm emailing that link to myself at work, and putting it on my bookmarks list at home.

[Awen]

Oh boy can I relate to this comment:

Quote: When an N is faced with a problem their first reaction is to blame someone else and demand to be rescued.

You bet.  I can think of countless examples from 20 years of being with my NXH.  Here is one -

Used to live on an 80-acre farm, the majority of which for most of 8 or so years became overgrown field and pasture for NXH's hunting pleasure.  NXH decided one day to burn some garden refuse... in the field.  I pointed out that it was a windy day and the field quite dry and that NXH ought to recognize (especially being trained as a FIREMAN) that burning in a dry field on a windy day would not be a particularly safe thing to do.  (Let alone intelligent)  I hoped he'd had the sense to go on to do something else.  Nope. 

Sure enough, half an hour or so later, there is smoke coming from the field and after a bit I hear angry shouting.  Shortly thereafter I find the angry shouting is being directed at me, ordering me to go to the house and get my son (then age 12 or so?)  to help put out the field fire NXH had started by choosing to burn trash in a dry field on a windy day.   

Now frankly, I was not interested in sending my son out to clean up his dad's messes, especially as it occurrs to me that sending a 12 year old to fight a field fire is tantamount to child abuse.  I did however, call the fire department out.

My thanks for doing this was to get screamed at for not sending my son out right away and taking so long to call the fire department.  Never mind that I explained that it took so long as I did not at first realize what was going on and had not heard him yelling for quite some time.  As far as NXH accepting responsibility for his actions, NADA.  It was a total accident that the fire got out of control, lol.  Apparently even FIRE should know to always obey an N!

Frankly I was so angry with XNH for doing such a stupid thing I would much preferred to let him deal with the natural consequences of his actions ON HIS OWN without my intervention.  I only caved as I feared the fire could spread to the neighbors.

Ariel