ok - i was away for a few days, first i wanted to be off the computer, then i was involved in registering for fall term.... then i ended up borrowing another computer so i could be on the internet without crashing all the time. i think its finally set up & after this message i will be using the other computer so maybe i can even login & get private messages.
i wrote most of this a few days ago, but was gone longer than i thought.
i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction. it -felt- condescending and dismissive.
You said that, awhile back, and then went on to say that I was implying stuff and that "it" was "ok"....only "if" I wasn't implying stuff and now I hear my individual reaction being defined as codependant. [/i]
ok ........... this has been a major misunderstanding. we can stop discussing this, that would be fine, but i wanted to let you know obviously this was not what i was trying to say.
i had no intention of saying or meaning that 'it' was only 'ok' 'if' you were or werent 'implying' 'stuff'.......
even though you tell me it isnt what you meant, it -still- appeared from what you wrote (it was not clear to me) that you -were- ascribing to a belief that people reacting emotionally -were- being inappropriate........... at the very least, it wasnt clear, becuase of the sentence i pointed out. thats why i pointed it out.
now you are saying that =wasnt= what you are saying. welll..... i guess you had something in mind but it isnt what i heard. thats why i was trying to get clarification.
also, it seems as though my use of the word 'codependent' was misconstrued.
that had absolutely no intention of saying you personally are 'codependent' or name you or label you personally!>>>>>.....
i was saying, reacting to what i read that you wrote, that i didnt understand why someone would want to share what i saw as -more- responsbility than was truly theirs. i did say that that attitude seemed 'codependent' -- maybe a better term would be a blurring of boundaries or something else, i dont know. maybe it was misinterpreted that i was calling you or anyone else personally codependent. that wasnt the case. it seemed you were discussing the idea of people in general taking on more responsibilty that was necessary, and i didnt see that as necessary or a healthy thing either, and thats what i said. i wasnt trying to talk about you personally or call anybody codependent.
but i was =not= trying to not accept any apology or deny anyone the right to feel feelings.??
Sorry, this sounds like double speak to me. Am I supposed to feel better now?
Do you mean you did accept my appology and you are sorry you hurt my feelings by not saying so?[/i]
i mean, i did not even get the message that you were even apologising for anything. i thought we were talking about something completely different. i thought we were talking about ascribing responsiblity, and how much it is or isnt appropriate, and whether or not having emotional reactions alter a realistic appraisal of allocating responsibility...... thats what i thought we were talking about.
since you clarify that you were actually apologising to me for seeming to mislabel me, then please, be aware thats not what i read from your post - and im sorry that i apparently missed it, but for whatever reason it did not come across.
its obvious there are very deep divisions as to how this is looked at and interpreted and they wont be changed by talking about it becuase it just has to do with peoples world view.
IMO, the only way to change it is by talking about it but in that talking, to be sure we are talking about ....it......and not subtley insulting or defining eachother, as we go along.[/i]
well..... i was feeling just as subtly defined and insulted as well! that was the whole point of my objection originally, which i think is still some of the problem happening. the whole original objection had to do with defining people, (anyone, not just me) who either reacts with emotion or who seeks accountability in a trauma, as someone who is either not healthy about their reactions or not reacting appropriately. i felt this was unfair and inaccurate and argued that.
then other people got upset, and thought i was defining -them- with something else. i guess the bottom line is nobody likes to feel defined, right? who actually might have been doing it, and who just felt like it was happening, is open to debate and probably will be disagreed about. its really hard to interpret blank writing like this, everybody knows that.
its obvious we are defining things differently but on the big issues we probably agree...
Defining issues differently is one thing but defining people is something else. I didn't like you being defined as over emotional or that your blaming was some weird thingy that only over emotional people do. [/i]
well, i totally appreciate that and im glad to hear it. please understand, i just flat missed that in your post. my reply was trying to get clarification on the things you said. if i had thought you had apologised or said what you say you said, my reply would have likely been different.
But you turn around and define me as codependant and say I'm implying stuff. What stuff?? I've already said I feel insulted about that and disappointed. I clearly stated my feelings.well here is a misunderstanding. i did not say 'you were codependent'........ i said it sounded like a codependent attittude to take on responsibility that isnt yours. (thats general, for anyone, not just you personally). you say i read it wrong. OK!!! thats what clarification is for. so you are thinking i just turned around and started calling you stuff, which hurt your feelings, but, really, that wasnt my intent..... i was talking about the attitudes and generalities -i- thought we were discussing.. i had no intention of insulting or ignoring or anything like that.
Big triangle happening here.
What position am I in again? Perp? Resuer? (surely not now). Victim?i dont know. do we have to be in a triangle? i dont feel i am. i think maybe you stepped in to be a rescuer, but it backfired, becuase i didnt play a role that was expected of me?...... i appreciate you stepping in to help me, i repeat again, i absolutley did not get that out of the post that i read.
i have felt condescended to by almost everythign that bliz has written recently...
So rather than tell her that you do the same thing to me?? [/i]
that might have been how you felt or what you read. but, it just wasnt what i was doing.
....people are geting insulted very easy, ....
Here we go again. This is a derogatory statement about people in general which is not fair. When you feel that what people are saying is: "condescending and dismissive", that's ok but if, by chance, other people feel that way about what you are saying then they are just: "getting insulted very easy".
Yep, double standard for sure.[/i]
sela: i think its pretty obvious that i was getting insulted just as much as anybody else. if i wasnt, i would feel more able to continue the conversation rather than just stopping. actually, it insults me right then that you accuse me of having a double standard when i clearly dont! but, again, why wreck a friendship over it.
i didnt say '-you- are getting insulted' or 'other people are getting insulted' ----- i said 'people' like, all of us. i was 100% including myself. its just another way of how easy it is to misunderstand peoples meaning in this context.
I'm glad you haven't reacted with anger to my expressing my feelings. well, i have no reason to. it doesnt make me angry when people express their feelings. it upsets me when i feel like people are pigeonholing others, or being unfair or reactionary, or closed-minded, me or anybody. you said you werent doing that, i was still -unclear- beucase of some things that you said, i wrote about that, and then this was upsetting to you. now we are trying to figure it out.
it really triggers me personally when i feel people are being closed minded, especially politically, becuase the stakes are high and it -is- personal. thats what i was feeling like, and thats why i feel its usually better not to talk about it. i am going to confess to you that i personally believe deep in my heart of hearts that -some- of the attitudes and points of view expressed in that thread were in -my- view, closed minded. i am going to continue to be triggered by what i percieve as closed-mindedness, and choose to avoid interfacing with it. its the same way i would feel in the middle of a drunk mob. i would want to get away as fast as possible from that kind of mentality beucase i am literally frightened of that way of thinking. it scares me, and talking to people who believe that way makes me feel very much like im hitting my head against a wall.
but to other people, its their perspective and to them, its correct and they percieve that -i- am the one who is strange or wrong. so rather than be triggered by who this person is, id rather just let it go. please dont take that as any insult. im sure that is goign to be interpreted as an insult by someone, perhaps everyone. however im trying to describe what was triggering for me about that conversation.
I'm glad you are trying to understand and I hear you trying to avoid further upset.
....I mean to make it clear what you said that hurt mine and I accept and believe that you did not mean to do that.well, im glad of that. i had no intention of hurting anyones feelings in any way, especially yours. (but not anyones!)
to really clarify, i *really* want you to understand, that that post from you didnt read to me like how you say you intended it at all..... (as mine apparently didnt either)
it -sounded- as though you were saying 'even though reacting emotionally in a trauma -is- actually a coping mechanism, its still ok'. it appeared like a left-handed compliment - like you were saying it but not quite saying it. thats what i was unclear about and asking about. then the codependent thing, was interpreted as a personal insult or something when it totally was something different. so, this whole thing has been misinterpreted from all sides apparently.
you say you were apologising and i believe that....... its still not what i understood from it..... however if thats what you say you meant, i believe you and im sorry i didnt react to that and it hurt you.
i wasnt ignoring you, just finishing a bunch of stuff, and just letting the whole thing go for a few days...... i personally dont have the stomach for political disagreement anymore, becuase its too personal. the stakes are too high for me to be detached anymore discussing politics. i used to like it, it used to be challenging, now its just triggering.
but i didnt mean to hurt you or anyone for sure, or certainly ignore any apology or anything.. hope that makes sense.
