Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[Sela]

Yesterday I was thinking about words and their power.

For a moment, I felt the pain of the words my mother once sneered at me, in anger and frustration, when I was a teen, doing whatever I did to provoke such anger and frustration.  The words were:

"I hate you."

Those words hurt me deeply.  They felt like a sword being driven into my heart and the extent of that pain seems obvious to me now, since I can so easily recall it and feel it.  Just after they were said, I realized the power such words have to cause harm to people and I silently vowed never to say such a thing to any child I might be blessed with.  So far, so good.


Then, some years ago, our family was seeing a psychologist who was supposed to be trying to help us with a problem and particularly at that time, supposedly helping to enhance communication between my daughter and myself.  In one session, we were talking about our basic beliefs and I had clearly stated that "I think hate is very destructive and that it truly corrodes the vessel within which it resides.  It is something I do not allow into my home or my life." , after which the psychologist immediately turned to my daughter and said:  "It's ok to say: 'I hate you.' !"

   

That, along with a few other things he said that felt extremely uncomfortable to me, motivated me to seek out another psychologist and describe to him the words that were causing me some distress.  I hardly finished a couple of sentences when that psychologist said:  "Dr. _________ should NOT be inserting his feelings or opinions....", at which point I realized that I wasn't crazy and decided to quit seeing the first "doctor".

I feel like I've been trying to repair the damage to my relationship with my daughter ever since.

Lately, here there has been some discussion about who's "right" and who "knows" what and that got me thinking about some of my basic beliefs and my opinions on stuff and about this business of saying:  "I hate you" and so now......I'm really wondering:

Is it ever ok to say I hate you? 

I mean, even to your worst enemy?  When do two wrongs ever equal a right?

I guess I'm just after other people's opinions because they just seem like such seriously cruel, hurtful, powerful, vile words and so very hard to retract.  It's not likely that my opinion about using them will change but I am curious to know if others have experienced anything similar, or if many think it's an ok thing to do and if so why?  I guess I'm trying to understand why someone would think it's ok to tell my child such a thing, especially, after I just stated my objection to saying it? (actually.....I probably know the answer to that......he was just a crappy manipulative jerk trying to extend our business to line his pockets, imo, to be honest).

I don't even know why this is sticking in my head lately but it is.    I guess I'm still processing stuff I thought I was finished with.   It's just that that man belittled me infront of my daughter, totally disrespected me by choosing to contradict something I believe is sooo important, and not only that....but my shocked reaction was to not know what to say, which must have made me out to be a real dim wit!!!

I feel frustrated with myself, for not standing up to him, at that moment, and very angry and resentful toward that "doctor" .... I feel like writing him a letter expressing exactly how much etc!!

But what good would that do? 

I'm sure my daughter will make her own mind up about such matterss but I sure didn't like him annihilating my opinion and seemingly trying to void my feelings!!

Sela

[Portia]

((((((Sela))))))

What does “I hate you” mean to you?

What would it mean if you said it?

I had clearly stated that "I think hate is very destructive and that it truly corrodes the vessel within which it resides.  It is something I do not allow into my home or my life." , after which the psychologist immediately turned to my daughter and said:  "It's ok to say: 'I hate you.' !"

Psych thought you were denying your daughter permission to express hate within your home. Not good to repress anything so he tells her it’s okay. 

Hate is a feeling isn’t it?

If we don't express hate in some way...what happens to the feeling?...

This is tricky for me.....I don't think I ever said it but I sure felt it.

[Portia]

“I hate you!”

I think whenever someone says this, they’re overflowing with raw emotion. I can’t imagine saying it otherwise. Can you?

What I’d be feeling would be very angry, very threatened, very vulnerable and probably as though whatever was happening was causing me to feel – helpless. Having no control over anything. No power. No self almost! “I hate you!” for me would be my last attempt to assert my ‘self’.

But otherwise, using the word hate… I might say: “I hate intolerance!” (which is intolerant okay..) or I might say “I hate hatred!!!”

Fear?

(((((((((Sela)))))))))

[Portia]

back again...

It's just that that man belittled me infront of my daughter, totally disrespected me by choosing to contradict something I believe is sooo important, and not only that....but my shocked reaction was to not know what to say, which must have made me out to be a real dim wit!!!

Made voiceless by a psych who was supposed to helping communication? Yeah, not the brightest spark eh? Okay, what he was trying to do was probably okay in intent (telling your D it’s okay to voice feelings) BUT he didn’t hear you at all. He took your D’s ‘side’ (regressing himself, no doubt) and made you the big baddie parent. Not exactly helpful.

What strikes me is – you still want to voice your reaction to him?

I sure didn't like him annihilating my opinion and seemingly trying to void my feelings!!

This is what happens I think when we say “I hate you!” to someone. We try and stop their power/opinion/control, we try and void them out. Like your mom did to you I guess. Maybe she saw you as powerful and threatening to her at that time?

I think it’s pretty normal for very young children (2-4) to say “I hate you!” to their parents because it’s all about finding their boundaries, their personal power and sizing up to the world. Being thwarted is terrible at that age and the emotions are huge (which is why excessive shame at that age leads to you-know-what).

How are you feeling? You okay?

[pennyplant]

The last time I said anything equivalent to "I hate you" was after a co-worker played a mean prank on me that backfired because I was not in a good mood that day (and the prank just happened to involve my car which is a sore spot with me).  I called him an a------ and said I don't even like you.  Everyone else at work thought it was great because they thought he had it coming.  But I felt terrible for a couple of weeks after.  There was a terrible tension between us and I hadn't even meant it the way it sounded.  It came from anger--just like Portia said.

Much later on he retaliated in a very cruel way (verbally, but still....) so it wasn't really over when it was over if you know what I mean.  That retaliation took months and months for me to be able to let go of.

Now I'm not saying I regret my words because he retaliated.  I regret my words because they were not true and they caused harm.  He reacted the way he did because of his own bugaboos from his past.  In some ways, the two of us are similar and that is maybe why it hurt so much.

Because of what I learned from that incident, I don't ever expect to say anything like that to anyone ever again.

As for the doctor who undermined you in front of your daughter, disrespected you I would say, that might be an issue on top of the idea of bringing hate into your home and relationship.  I would try to let go of him undermining you because you can try to fix that by having a heart to heart with your daughter, maybe while eating out or doing a chore together.  Let her know where exactly you're coming from with this issue of hate.  She will listen if it is just a conversation.  Let her get to know and understand that part of you.  That doctor is an idiot and I'm not sure if a letter to him will make a difference.  It might not be very satisfying to you either, as he may not even respond to it.  Think about how you would feel in that instance.  The real dialogue should be with your daughter, I think.

Just some food for thought.  Penny P

[Sugarbear]

(((Sela)))

I am so sorry that therapist did that - it does sound like a misguided attempt to ensure that your daughter felt like she could express her own feelings, but to use that choice of words and knowing how you felt about them, well... that was very poor judgement. It is good that you aren't seeing him anymore.

I have never used "I hate you" during fights or even called someone names. This is a huge issue with me in dealing with my mother, who seems to enjoy saying things like that, and this is with her knowing how I feel about it. I've explained in very simple terms how saying that (and using curse words or nasty names) hurts me, so apparently she does it now on purpose.

It was a very sad day for me when I realized that my mother's main objective in her fighting with me was not to resolve the problem, but to hurt and punish me for whatever perceived transgression I had done to her. I also had the awful sensation of realizing that she did not have unconditional love for me. She only loved me when I was obeying and conforming to her ideals.

So her saying things like "I hate you. I don't know if I ever loved you." (or my personal "favorite") "You f--king b!tch - you are going to fail at _____" and then pointing out that she had just called me the curse words "Notice my language!" to make sure I understood that she wasn't going to change and actually was going to do exactly what I had asked her not to do.

I would rather hear "I'm angry with you" or "I hate what you did." It is a subtle shift and acknowledges the feeling, but does not become an open attack on the other person. With those statements, it brings the anger out in the open, and should be possible to discuss why it upset the person and try to figure out what to do to fix it.

I know that I am capable of resolving conflict without yelling and anger, because I do it all of the time with my husband. He was also raised by disfunctional parents, and came into our relationship not knowing how to "fight fair". We sat down early on, discussed how we wanted to handle disagreements and for the most part, we get through arguments hearing both sides and hardly ever resort to even raising our voices. Sure, we get angry with each other, but we work it out without name calling, attacking and blaming the other person. It is truely amazing, but seeing that we can do this, coming from the backgrounds we both had, it is clear to me that my mother just doesn't want or see the need to change how she communicates her anger to me. She doesn't value our relationship enough to try to fix what is wrong on her end.

I guess that is the problem - is the objective to resolve the issue or to hurt and punish?

Healthy expressions of anger are possible, but using the words "I hate you" just destroy a person's soul and prevent the anger from ever being released the way it should be...

At least, that is my 2¢.

[moonlight52]

hi portia    this question is important a mother saying this to a teenage daughter big hurtful thing to do .i cannot imagine saying such a thing to my 13 year old. but i went the other way so careful with words.well it really has not been that hard yet with my 13 year old but it depends on intent .my 13 year old can say alot of things she does not mean in tones she sez she does not think are dis respectful. i do explain these things to her but she has once or twice said oh i hate you .she was not even that mad. i saw that and said aw you dont really mean that you love me and she looked at me surprised i said that and said i love you mom. but how come big sis got the young mom i got the old one (my girls are 15 years  apart) yeah big sis got the cool one but you got the wise one .i guess if you can see whats behind the words not just the words themselves
but i sure am careful with words my n parent got me thur the heart with words so many times i can not count glad we do not do that stuff huh
moonlight

[Hopalong]

For a parent to say that to a child is brutal. Beyond that, it's profoundly immature and reckless. I am so sorry you even have that memory.

The T was off base, I think also.

I think what the T should have said is, EVERYONE sometimes feels hate, even for someone they love. You are not a bad person if you sometimes feel that way. BUT...what people need to learn is that speaking those words can hurt someone even more than if you hit them, and it's something that can hurt them for years and years and years.

Now, it's up to you, but if you think about it some, do YOU think it's okay now to say that to your mother?

(Me, I said it once to my mother when I was an adolescent. I've felt waves of it at times since, but never said it again.)

It also strikes me as a STUPID thing to say because what it really means is, I am so angry I have lost the ability to describe anything, so I am going to resort to the most primitive and destructive thing I can think of.

From a child to a mother, forgivable. Kids don't learn for a long time how to articulate more subtle feelings, or express anger responsibly. For a mother to say it to a child, unbearable.

But...it seems your mother WAS a child at the time she said that to you. In memory, the towerful all-powerful parent. But in reality, regardless of her age, just an immature, blaming, unhappy creature.

I'm sorry you have that memory. Bless you for turning it into an act of restraint and love toward your children.

Hops

[Sela]

Hi everyone and thankyou all for reading and posting.  I appreciate your thoughts and your taking the time to put them here.  Warning:  This is very long.

Porita asked: What does “I hate you” mean to you?

I think it means, as Bean put it, "I reject you" (and I would add: "as a person, all of you, everything about you, your entire being.  You are a lousy person.").  Also, as you put it P, "overflowing with raw emotion" (extreme anger, I think), even as Hoppy said:  "I am so angry I have lost the ability to describe anything, so I am going to resort to the most primitive and destructive thing I can think of. "  To me, it also means:  "I'm going to hurt you now with words" and exactly what Jac said:  "Saying "I hate you" is like attacking the very core of the person".

By the way, I should have pointed out that my daughter didn't say this to me, it was just part of a discussion about our basic beliefs and this is what I said is one of mine.  My daughter wasn't trying to express her feelings, I was trying to express mine.    Some of you may be right and the T might have been trying to let my daughter know that it's ok to express strong feelings or........

maybe not.  Maybe he was just trying to reduce the value of my belief??  Or maybe he just has a different opinion.   Another example:

I said:  "I have great faith in God".

His response:  "And your faith!!!  It's like the Buddhists!!  The Buddihists think we should all sit around and lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvve eachother!  The only problem with that is that....... while everyone is sitting around lovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvving eachother, nothing ever gets done!!!!"

Those were his exact words.    

Again, I felt shock and confusion and mostly.......belittled, infront of my daughter.  Like my feelings were totally discounted and something I value was reduced to zero.  And once more, I didn't know what to say and just sat there, looking stunned and feeling like a nothing.

There has been a lot of discussion on this board about people's beliefs in higher powers.   These are often the rocks that hold people in place....often what they rely on to get through difficult times in their lives.  People rely on their higher powers and find hope in them.  I'm sorry.

How dare he rudely, inconsiderately, and bluntly put down my basic belief like that, infront of my child!!!   I think that was totally unprofessional and it sure seemed like it was done to demean.   What a misuse and abuse of power!!  

Portia asked:  If we don't express hate in some way...what happens to the feeling?...

I agree and I disagree.  Yes, it's important that we express and release our feelings and I think that is the crux of the feeling of hate, anyway, in that it is anger that builds up and builds up and never gets expressed or released and so it grows and grows until it is finally ....a much stronger, much more dangerous and very destructive feeling......that of hate.  It eats away at a person's insides.

But who's rights over ride/are more important/take precidence over who's??

Do you or I have more right to express our feelings than those who's feelingswe hurt by doing so?

Don't we all have a responsibility, as well as rights?

I think I think this because I've been on both ends of the scale.
I cringe at the thought of myself, as a child, laying in her bed, planning her father's murder, and feeling a severe bout of hate.  And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of hate because of my own mother, in a fit of anger and frustration, exploding and saying:  "I hate you" to me.
Neither thing is any good, imo.

I have taught my children that it is very important to express feelings and to get them out....in ways that do not hurt others and that it is best.....even detrimental...to do so a.s.a.p. to avoid them growing into something bigger and even harder to get rid of....or worse......something that might explode and they then might find themselves......regretting their actions and having to take responsibility for much bigger stuff.

Maybe I'm totally cracked??  But that's what I think.  And I think it's wrong to think it's ok to hurt others, just because we're feeling something.  That's what causes stuff like murder and war.  People get to explode without regard for anyone but themselves.   We don't accept it in our society.  It's not what most people in the world want.  It just seems important to begin teaching this at home.

P also said: What I’d be feeling would be very angry, very threatened, very vulnerable and probably as though whatever was happening was causing me to feel – helpless. Having no control over anything. No power. No self almost! “I hate you!” for me would be my last attempt to assert my ‘self’.

Portia, I understand this completely.  It sounds like you're saying you would be feeling desperate for a way to protect yourself and that these words might be it?  You might even feel afraid and so it is a way of defense?

My question is......how does the person on the other end feel, once you get to express this?  Do their feelings count at all?

Feeling angry is normal, human, inevitable.  Expressing anger is necessary, important and also normal, human, inevitable.  Choosing how to express it........is just that.......a choice.  Nothing more.

We can all choose to use restraint or allow ourselves to lose control.  That's the way I see it.
And......since we are only human, we will sometimes make a poor choice.   That's probably going to happen, at least sometimes, for most of us.

I guess it's what happens after that that matters eh?  Whether or not we take responsibility for that choice, or not.

Made voiceless by a psych who was supposed to helping communication? Yeah, not the brightest spark eh? Okay, what he was trying to do was probably okay in intent (telling your D it’s okay to voice feelings) BUT he didn’t hear you at all. He took your D’s ‘side’ (regressing himself, no doubt) and made you the big baddie parent. Not exactly helpful.

Thankyou for this, Portia.  I feel like you've heard me and that feels good.  No, it wasn't helpful.  It was damaging to our relationship, I think.  Like I said, I feel like I've been trying to repair a lot of the damage that man did, ever since.  The good news is......my daughter and I are communicating with eachother much better now, regardless of the T's "help".  It's just that I feel very angry and resentful that he added to our difficulties instead of giving us both empathy and aiding us in hearing eachother (which is what I thought it was his job to do as a T??).  Not insert his feelings or opinions but help us understand eachothers feelings and opinions.

I think we're doing that very well now, on our own.   So that isn't the problem, really.  The problem is my wanting to release my feelings about the experience, which I guess I must still be carting around, since I keep feeling them.  I guess I'm trying to live what I believe.  Not always so easy to do eh?

What strikes me is – you still want to voice your reaction to him.

Ya.  After years too.  I want to give him the duct tape treatment (in my fantasies) and I want to get rid of my anger and resentment towards him.  I guess I'll have to get the old bongos out and pound on his head for awhile!!  It is odd that I can't let go of this.  Maybe because I was so very shocked and disappointed.  I was so hoping for his help and looking forward to so much and it was all lost when he behaved like this.  I felt ripped off.  I still feel ripped off!  I want my money back!!!  (hahahahahaha!!  "Dear Doc:  I'm feeling much stronger now.   Strong enough to speak.  I think you added to our difficulties and you harmed me by devaluing my basic beliefs infront of my child, which caused me to feel voiceless and insulted, angry, frustrated, disappointed and ripped off!  I think you harmed her by showing how easy and acceptable (it seems like) it is to disrespect her mother and by making me out to be some sort of quack.  I want my money back!  Please send a cheque to..........".

    Do you think I'll get a refund???

we try and void them out. Like your mom did to you I guess. Maybe she saw you as powerful and threatening to her at that time?

Maybe.  And maybe she didn't consider how hurtful her words were to say to her daughter?  Maybe she didn't consider my feelings at all?  Maybe she acted / chose to act on her feelings and that is totally understanable, although, not an acceptable thing to do to a child/teen, imo?  Maybe, she could have apologised sometime for that, which she never did.  Maybe I'm angry with her for not doing that or taking responsibility for hurting me with her words.

"Dear Doc:  It's not all you.  It's my mother's words that hurt too.  Nevermind about the refund."

Thanks ((((Portia)))).  You helped.

How are you feeling? You okay?

Thankyou for asking.  I feel messed up.  I have a sore throat and a cold and so I guess I'm just in a negative mode physically and this might be part of why I'm also feeling low emotionally.  I hate injustice!!  I really do.  I wish life were fair.  It isn't and I otta just get used to it!!!   I'll be better soon, I promise.


Penny said:  I called him an a------ and said I don't even like you.  Everyone else at work thought it was great because they thought he had it coming.  But I felt terrible for a couple of weeks after.  There was a terrible tension between us and I hadn't even meant it the way it sounded.  It came from anger--just like Portia said.

Thankyou for being so honest.  We all say things we regret and I admire you for speaking about this. 

I regret my words because they were not true and they caused harm.

I'm glad you learned from the experience and are able to take responsibility. 

Because of what I learned from that incident, I don't ever expect to say anything like that to anyone ever again.

The hard part is apologising eh?  I agree.  It's so much easier to just try not to choose to express ourselves like that to begin with.  I know it's impossible to always do but at least.......it's worth trying for and especially....worth trying not to get to such extremes we will later regret.  Good for you Penny.  I bet you will live up to your expectations!

I would try to let go of him undermining you because you can try to fix that by having a heart to heart with your daughter

Thankyou Penny.  That's what I've done and continue to try to do and it is helping.  My daughter is in university, a few hours away from my home, so those opportunities are not as frequent as they once were.  I think this is one of the reasons I might be having a hard time "letting go", as you suggest.  Because it feels like the last chance of improving so much was wasted in these sessions with this "doctor" who seemed bent on extending our time with him, rather than using that time to help us connect more deeply.  I honestly think he saw a chance for "extended therapy", since he kept talking about "6 months from now......." and "a year from now....", as if we were going to be seeing him long term.  It's hard to believe that there are actually people out there who may be mostly into making a profit off their clients but unfortunately there are people like that.

Let her know where exactly you're coming from with this issue of hate

That's very good advice, I think.  Thankyou.  I think it might be a good idea for me to tell her about what my mother said and how it felt and maybe.......she is old enough to hear about my feelings toward my father.  I haven't really talked much about my childhood with my children.  I guess that was my way of trying to appear "normal".  I didn't want them to feel sorry for me and I don't like talking about it, to be honest.  But it is important in regard to why I believe what I believe and maybe I should try to explain that some more?

I don't want my kids to have to go through such experiences in order to learn some things.  I guess I want to protect them and I know that's ridiculous because we all have to learn in our own way and form our own opinions.  I don't want to impose my opinion but just to share it and hope that they will take it into consideration.   I think I do the same with them and what really pissed me off was that T didn't even ask my daughter what her opinion was.  He just expressed his.  He did that alot, come to think of it.

That doctor is an idiot and I'm not sure if a letter to him will make a difference.  It might not be very satisfying to you either, as he may not even respond to it.

Thankyou Penny.  Ofcourse, I agree with you.  I feeeeeeeeeel like I want to write him a letter but I don't intend to.  I feeeeeeeeeeeeel like giving him the duct treatment, but I don't intend to do that either.  I just feel really mad, when I think about some of the things he said and his tone, his facial expression and how I felt and the look on my daughter's face (of shock and confusion, it seemed too) and I am angry with myself......for not doing something about it back then......for not reporting him.......for not confronting him.......and I wonder how many other people he has done similar stuff to or still does and keeps making a profit off??   I feel weak and stupid for not standing up to him but I guess I have to empathise with myself too because my relationship with my daughter was my priority and I decided he just wasn't helping or worth wasting my energy on.

It's helping to just say all this here.  It's getting it out of my head and onto this screen, which is better than keeping it in and letting it cook.    I don't want my anger to grow into hate so I'm choosing to express it here.   Not just toward him but toward myself too.  Thankyou for pointing this out though Penny, about the letter, because I am not serious about writing a letter and it's good that you mentioned it.  I think it would be a useless thing to do now and I don't think I would feel better afterward and I doubt he would respond in any way that would help me (although I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he might choose to do that).

The message exceeds the maximum allowed length (20000 characters).

Hahahahaha!!  First time that's happened!  Ok.  I guess I'll have to break this into two eh?

[Sela]

Sugarbear:  Thankyou for your kind words.  I'm sorry that your mother uses words to hurt you with such blatent disregard for your feelings.   How very hurtful and cruel!!  ((((((((Sugarbear))))))), no child, even as an adult, deserves to be treated like that from their parent.  What a shameful load your mother must keep!
Her words to you sound very sick.......like she is very sick...inside.  I'm so sorry that you get to be the receptacle for her use.  Talk about totally disrespecting you!!  Her behaviour is a severe manifestation of something very nasty.  I'm so sorry you have had to endure her mouth.

I would rather hear "I'm angry with you" or "I hate what you did." It is a subtle shift and acknowledges the feeling, but does not become an open attack on the other person. With those statements, it brings the anger out in the open, and should be possible to discuss why it upset the person and try to figure out what to do to fix it.

It's amazing how different some people turn out to be than their parents.  You certainly show no sign of being like her.  And you have described very clearly what has not been demonstrated to you.  How wonderful that you have learned so much!!  No kidding eh?  Acknowledge the feeling and express what behaviour is upsetting!!   What a lovely idea!!

I'm so glad you and your H have found eachother and are able to communicate so well.  That is wonderful to hear!  You have both broken the cycle of abuse.  That is so inspiring!!

it is clear to me that my mother just doesn't want or see the need to change how she communicates her anger to me. She doesn't value our relationship enough to try to fix what is wrong on her end.

Sorry for the hurt this must cause, Sugarbear.  I think this is a sign of illness.  I mean it!  Something isn't right when a mother shows no desire to communicate good feelings to her child/children.   There is a broken switch somewhere, imo.

  I've explained in very simple terms how saying that (and using curse words or nasty names) hurts me, so apparently she does it now on purpose.

There is a sickness present when a child, adult or not, explains something like this to her mother and her mother ignors the explanation, ignors the feelings expressed, ignors the request to refrain from doing it and continues to behave the same way, inflicting more of the same on the child, if you ask me.

Sorry ((((((((Sugarbear))))))))  I wish there were a cure.   

   I guess that is the problem - is the objective to resolve the issue or to hurt and punish?

Absolutely.  Also, is it to express what one feels with or without regard for anyone else?

Thankyou for your 2 cents.  It's worth a lot more than that to me.

Hi Moonlight.  You said:  but i went the other way so careful with words

Can one really be too careful with words?  I mean, choosing our words with care......can that ever be a bad thing?  I guess, if people are in a hurry and waiting for/wanting a quick a reply.  Or like in my case.......in shock/confusion.......with the T........yes, I like to choose my words carefully.  I try not to react but to be careful about what I say to people.  I try not to assume.  I find myself going over my reactions (in my head) and questioning whether or not I'm hearing correctly or assuming something or judging too quickly or on and on and .......

yes.  I guess I can be to careful with words.  Maybe it's better, sometimes, to just be less controlled and .....what I call......open the mouth first and think later???  Maybe not.  I don't know.  It's not like any of us will behave perfectly all of the time.  It's just that being careful with words, because they do have such power to hurt sometimes, seems like the best idea, imo.  For now, anyway.   I'm still looking for the grey areas.  A happy medium.  ok....it seems like the best idea.....most of the time??  Does that seem reasonable?

I'm so flippin' reasonable I could kick myself in the butt sometimes.  I need to give myself permission to be unreasonable, I think, maybe??   It's what Portia asked me once:

"Why do you always have to be the sane one??"

Thankyou, Portia.  Ya.  Why?  I just end up feeling frustrated that I seem like the only reasonable person sometimes.  Why not give up and join the crowd??  Oh oh------that group think thingy again!  Nevermind.

i guess if you can see whats behind the words not just the words themselves

That is very wise, Moonlight.  I find it hard to stop reacting and think about what might be behind the words sometimes (I did with that T.  I was just feeling shock and confusion and sort of frozen.  ---behind my reaction??  Fear maybe?  Afraid he might be right?  Afraid it might be ok to say "I hate you" sometimes and thus what I've been trying to teach my children is completely wrong?  Maybe some of that too?)

....and behind his (T's)words:  as has been suggested........it's ok to have strong feelings?  ......don't try to silence other people's right to voice their feelings how they choose.....it's fun to make you feel small and vunerable and nullified........  I'm having a great time and earning an income too!  .......or......
I think it's ok to say:   "I hate you" and I'm making sure your daughter hears my opinion too.....other opinions in the world besides yours.......because I'm in a position to do that .......whatever.

i sure am careful with words my n parent got me thur the heart with words so many times i can not count

I'm sorry that you had to go through that  (((((((((Moonlight))))))))).  I think another cycle is broken by your being careful with your words, especially to your children.   Way to go!!  I'm so glad.  They are lucky to have a mom who tries so hard.

Jac said:  I firmly believe you hate the act and not the person.

I'm with you on that Jac.  I don't really feel anger toward the T or my mother but I'm not happy with their behaviour.  I love my mother (she's deceased) and I don't think the T is a bad person.  I just think he chose to behave more like a theif than a therapist.  I do think he enjoyed his position of power and that's not good.  He seemed like a pleasant enough person, just a little slimey around the edges.  People can and do change, so I haven't written him off.  Maybe someone with more stamina than I will deal with him in a way that might induce change??  I hope so.

Sela, what your mother said to you was very painful, I imagine, especially to a young girl, still trying to find herself.

Yes, it was, thankyou for acknowledging that so precisely Jac.  It was also deeply painful because it was my mother who said it.   I do understand that she was angry and frustrated and upset and human and all of that.  I also understand that she never did face up and acknowledge what she said or how it effected me.  I think that is a big part of pain for me.  If the person, at least, acknowledges afterward that they did behave badly, they are sorry for causing hurt, they intend to try harder not to do that any more......that gives me something soothing and healing to apply to my wound.  Otherwise, I am left to deal with my wounds in whatever way I find comforting and that, especially for a teen, may not always be the wisest or healthiest ways.

I agree with you that we all need to own our feelings, maybe think about where they are coming from, about what behaviour is causing them, and then express them in such a way as to communicate that.

Then, it is up to the other person to acknowledge our feelings and express theirs.  Explain their behaviour.  Apologise for their behaviour.  Or ignor all of that and just keep on doing whatever it is they're doing.

And ya.......the T could have tried to get some or all of this into the conversation instead of just stating his opinion that is is acceptable to use those words...."I hate you".   And you're right, I bet.......my daughter might have realized she doesn't hate anyone but instead their behaviour (which, as I said above, she wasn't expressing "I hate you" at all.   I was saying about my belief during that conversation).

Thanks Jac, for making this important distinction.  It's important to me, anyway.

Hoppy said:  For a parent to say that to a child is brutal. Beyond that, it's profoundly immature and reckless. I am so sorry you even have that memory.

Thankyou Hoppy.  Your words are like a giant hug.  I'm sorry so many of us have so many painful memories.    You probably have your share too.  (((((((Hoppy)))))))))  I'm sorry for whatever those are too Hoppy.

speaking those words can hurt someone even more than if you hit them, and it's something that can hurt them for years and years and years.

Isn't this true?  I know it hurts to recall those words.  I bet it hurts Sugarbear to hear and recall the words her mother uses.  Words can really hurt!  What kind of T encourages a child to use such hurtful words???  Telling them it's "ok" to use them???   This guy wasn't a new grad either!  The more I think about it.....the more I agree with myself!! (hahahahaha!!   and I keep laughing at myself too, because it's the only way I feel really sane!!).

It also strikes me as a STUPID thing to say

It strikes me a s stupid thing to teach a teen to say in a therapy session supposedly occuring to enhance communication.  Or a brilliant thing to say, if one's goal is to widen a rift??   Ok.  I smell the fumes now!!

From a child to a mother, forgivable. Kids don't learn for a long time how to articulate more subtle feelings, or express anger responsibly. For a mother to say it to a child, unbearable.

Yes, I agree.  Another important distinction.  The child might say such a thing because they hear it somewhere, perhaps on tv, or wherever.  The child is learning and doesn't know the pain that words cause because the child hasn't had the experience of such vile expressions directed at them.  So the child doesn't realize the power of those words or the hurt they cause.

The child, on the receiving end, me......learns this lesson pretty quick.  So ya....that child doesn't use those words by choice (some might go ahead and seek revenge, strike back, use even more hurtful words, think it's ok to do because their parent does it, etc).

By saying:  "I hate you" to one's own child, the parent is not only attacking the very core of that child's self.....but also.....teaching the child to direct words......AT.....people, rather than use them as an expression of feelings and what's upsetting them.

I may have overcompinsated I think.  I tried to begin every correction with:  "I love you but I don't like the way you are behaving......or what you said.......or what you did etc".  I wanted my kids to know it wasn't them....their little souls I was unhappy with....and actually....that I love them no matter what.....and that what they said or did was not acceptable, imo.

Lucky me.  It's probably time to congratulate myself because I sure did not learn to parent like that from my parents.  OK.....I'll give myself a point.

Thankyou Hoppy for recognizing the extent to which the pain of such words can run.  Anger isn't the only feeling that grows if kept contained, ignored, buried, or denied.  I think hurt can get pretty big too, especially after so many years.  Maybe that's why this is starting to come to the surface for me?  Maybe I'm starting to feel safe here and able to express my hurt because I know others, like you Hoppy, will come along and acknowledge my feelings and let me know that you care, by bothering to think and post.  Thankyou so much for that.

But...it seems your mother WAS a child at the time she said that to you.

Probably very true.  She was acting like a child who didn't know any better.  Part of the problem for me is that I did empathise very much with what my mother endured, which was not nice, and so I forgave her without ever voicing how her words hurt.  Even though I didn't know the term "projection", I knew that was what she was doing.......putting her anger and frustration on.....or taking it out on.........me.  I think she did such things because she was losing control of her own reactions.   There are all kinds of explanations for her behaviour and I can think of lot's of them.

But I need to acknowledge my own pain and hurt and how I've carried that around for so many years.  I pretty much devalued it myself.  Her pain was just so much bigger than mine.  Anything she did was nothing in comparison with what she withstood.  She didn't mean to hurt me she just exploded with emotion.

Yada yada.

What I haven't really spoke of is that she was an adult and could have, later, taken responsibility for her behaviour.  I've done it.  I've said things I regret and apologised to my children for behaving badly.  Why didn't she?  Why didn't she ever say:  "I'm sorry I said I hate you.  I didn't mean it.  I was angry and frustrated and I should never have said that.  It was hurtful and I acted very badly.  I'm so sorry and I'll try not to ever say that again"?

There are probably lot's of reasons.  But no excuse, really.
I think the same thing about that T.  There might be lot's of reasons he said what he did, but no excuse.
It wasn't therapeutic.  It did cause a bigger rift and I had to work harder to close that rift, which I'm glad of that.

Bless you for turning it into an act of restraint and love toward your children.

Thankyou Hoppy.  The same can be said for anyone here who is trying to do the same.  It's easy to just blurt out what comes into our head without thinking about what harm it might cause.  Bravo to those who are trying to ignor what their parents did, if that's what they did, and do differently......be more careful about what they do!  It's not easy but it's sure important, imo.

Bean:  Do you think that when you said:  "I hate you to people", you may have done so in response to something they said or did?

when he did something I perceived as attacking my inner being.

Wouldn't it be clearer to say:  "I feel like you're attacking my inner being when you do blank."?

I don't know.  I just think it's defeating to do the same thing back.  It doesn't seem like that will ever resolve anything.

I do hate.

I believe you.  I'm sorry for whatever has happened to generate this strong feeling.  I'm sorry for everything and everyone that hurt you.  I think it must have been awful for you and I don't like the result at all.

I'd much rather hear about what happened and hope that by you talking about it.....getting your feelings out....it might help.  I'm willing to read pages and pages if you feel like writing them.  I'd rather spend hours reading about what's happened than the alternative......which is leave things as they are and you just go on feeling this hate and possibly.....acting on it.

When I've said "I hate you" to anyone, it was to get revenge for what I thought they were doing to me.

I admire your honesty in saying this.  I think whoever did what to cause this much anger deserves revenge.  I, personally, choose to leave revenge to my higher power.  I also wonder, if revenge works because you say you "feel hate" not you felt it, which makes me think the revenge didn't work that well.  Maybe not?

The beautiful thing about the world is that we all have different opinions.  I respect your right to yours and I humbly ask you to consider mine.  If it's ok to say:  "I hate you", where do you draw the line?   Is is possible that your Nmother isn't evil........just sick???  I don't know.  I really don't.  I understand how angry I feel when people behave in horrendous ways.    I know what you  mean when you seek revenge.

It's just that for me.....seeking revenge means I have to behave like them and I don't want that.  I don't want to be like those who go out and do whatever they think they must in order to appease their own feelings, without regard for anyone else.  Isn't that what one must do in order to seek sufficient revenge??

Those times have given us an opportunity to say "I'm sorry" and mean it and feel this as well, so I'm not sad or unhappy still that they happened. Although at the time, it made me quite unhappy.

I'm glad you were able to take responsibility for your behaviour at those times and also that you have come away from them with something positive......seeing it as an opportunity for you.  It's not up to me to decide what is right for everyone.

I guess I just feel strongly that I should have first dibs on what severe behaviours are taught to my children.  That's why, really, I think this is bugging me.

Do I have that right?  I mean, how much influence do I really have?  Just because my mother said it to me and it hurt....doesn't mean every time someone else says it is always going to be wrong.    

Did it have any effect on your Nmom's behaviour?  Did she stop and seem to pay attention?  If so, maybe that was the right thing to say to her??

I think it's OK to hate evil.

We agree on that one, Bean!  Thanks for your post.  You've got me thinking some more.

Thankyou to anyone and everyone who has read all of this.   I appreciate it very much.

  Sela

[pennyplant]

Hi Sela,

As soon as I read that your daughter has gone away to university, I thought, "Aha!"  That may be what got you to thinking about your relationship with her and the former communication problem.  Our children growing up and moving away from us....  For me that has been a sad and melancholy time.  Most of the time, I can look back on my life and see that the ups and downs correspond with the changes that have been going on at the same time.  With the goodbyes.  And with each goodbye, if I don't realize right away that that is why I feel out of sorts, or whatever unpleasant feeling I'm having, or inappropriate feeling in some cases, if I can remind myself of a previous time that I felt the same way, and remember who I was saying goodbye to at the time..... often that cures me and settles my heart down for a time.  Because that therapist had such a deep impact on you at a time when maybe on some level you thought you were losing your daughter, or might lose her.  Now, a similar theme.  She is moving away from you    .  And your anger about what the T did to you before is naturally going to be stirred up again.  That's how it has worked for me anyway.

Now, this is how I sometimes can make sense of feeling angry about people doing to me what that T did to you.  If he had somehow managed to disguise his character better, and you hadn't felt so clearly the unfairness, well he might have also managed to keep you in therapy much longer than necessary.  What he did was blatant and it helped you make a nearly instant decision.  You were both better off without him.    I suppose it would have been nice if it had been on your terms and without him disrespecting you in front of your daughter, but I think maybe he had a personality problem himself and maybe he did you a favor in the long run.  You will never doubt your decision to discontinue with him!!!

About your not responding at the moment of the insults--the way you describe why you measure your words makes sense to me.  It is part of who you are.  I've always been one for flying off the handle and while it might be satisfying for the moment, and quite entertaining to people who watch or hear the story later, I often wish I had maintained more dignity or taken the high road.  Some people are not even worth your deepest feelings and convictions anyway.  I truly think anything intelligent you might have said to him would have gone right over his head.  That comment about Buddhism speaks volumes about the guy!!!  Definitely an idiot.

I like your measured words, Sela.  Hey, I even quoted you!!  So, imo, it's just not necessary to even consider trying to change that about you. 

Pennyplant

[Portia]

Hiya Sela,
That T’s comments about faith….I think it’s all been said. What a jerk. He got paid for this? It sure ain’t a Just World. I agree with most of what you say but that’s no talking point is it? So I thought about what I disagree with.

We can all choose to use restraint or allow ourselves to lose control.

I don’t think everyone can. I think some people are too crazy to restrain themselves? Is it a conscious choice, at that moment? Not sure. Yes, the brain chooses….it chooses to go “whoooooof!” because otherwise …. it will overload and kill the host body? (haha ‘host’ body eh? Boy am i sick, and I know it! ) Seriously, I think some reactions are so strong that to deny them might cause heart attacks etc. Okay, if we’re talking about the urge to murder someone else, maybe a heart attack would be preferable? I guess I don’t think we’re all as in control of our brains as we like to think we are!

I’ve experienced it…that loss of control, loss of higher brain function, when the red mist descends. Emotional brain is in control. I listened to a murderer talk about it, one who murdered not for any gain, simply out of pure emotional aggression. This is not an excuse of course…..

About ‘Why do you always have to be the sane one?’ – not suggesting you join the crowd! Suggesting you voice your own strong opinions forcefully occasionally, in a controlled way. Bit like a verbal version of your physical self-defence tactics? Imagine if you’d have taken that T to task at the time, in a controlled, assertive way. Looped him verbally over your shoulder. I agree he disrespected you and well, sometimes people don’t respond to our particular verbal style. Empathy can be adapting our verbal style to match the other person?
 
It’s not okay to say “I hate you” however; it might be necessary. It depends. There are no black and whites? It might be okay to say “I hate you” when someone has done something terrible to you. It might be the only way of voicing your self.

Has your D ever said “I hate you” to anyone, to you? How about “I despise/dislike/abhor/detest/loathe you”? Are these words of equal emotional value to you?

If someone says “I hate you” to me, am I in pain? Nope. I think they’re nuts. Sad but not my problem. Haha no I’m not that cold and cruel, I’m trying to make a point. You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?

“I love you” is a strong statement too. Do you say that it is very important not to use this phrase unless you really mean it? Not to use this phrase profligately because it will devalue it; or the listener might get the wrong idea? And that could cause pain later  ….. “but you said you loved me!!!! how could you say/do this if you love me?” kinda thing.

About your mother’s pain being so much bigger than yours. Yes there is a level of comparison. I’m not starving or imprisoned and compared to x, I have less pain. However, when we’re talking mental pain, the brain will do what the brain does to survive – deny, project, dissociate etc. Can you really compare her mental pain to yours and say she was kind of more deserving of pity, compassion, excuses…..than you?

Maybe her pain to you was bigger. But she didn’t feel it like that, she didn’t see it like that. You are seeing it like that - your judgement. She got rid of some of her pain by sending it your way. Who did you have to give it to? Sorry Sela, I don’t think her pain was bigger than yours. I think that’s you excusing her behaviour in some way? Sorry. You don’t have to excuse your mother anything. Not in your head, what’s in your head is yours and you’re free to do what you will with it.

“I hated my mother when she said ‘I hate you’ to me!” It would be okay to think that wouldn’t it?? I think it’s okay to think anything. Words and actions are different, we agree there.

Hey… ..yes….that’s what I see differently about this board. It’s not words person-to-person, face to face, real-time…..it’s more like feelings and thoughts sometimes…it’s not real/real it’s more …. Hmmmm… brain real! Haha.  Can you explain me better please? Weird morning stuff.

I’m impressed with the word count! That would have freaked me out, another automated message telling me I’m a bad person!! I’m joking.

[2224Jessica]

Hi Sela,

I was raised that to say "I hate you" is evil. All emotion was evil and all negative thoughts were evil. However my mums theory was that she could say and feel all those things but we wern't.
I never said it to her but I sure as hell felt that towards her. Those hurt and angry feelings that were anable to be expressed to her cause me alot of confusion and heart ache.  My T said that to express hate is an emotion and it is healthy to express. She also said that just because you may feel like you "hate" someone for a while it doesn't mean that you don't love them.
I think it would be confusing for you to hear it from your mum because if it were me, I didn't feel love from my mum and when she said things like that, it would  confirm my belief that she didn't love me enough. Every child needs love.
I think that to feel hate towards someone at times is healthy but the way to express it can be hurtful to that person, so I think when to actually be at the point of saying it out loud to someone, would probably be if the person is angry and deeply hurt.
I think a child saying it to a parent is healthy and it is a way of expressing hurt or mixed emotions. I think its better for a child to express saying that than not expressing anything at all. Then the parents can talk to the child about whats really bothering them and learn better ways of expressing hurt feeling rather than saying " I hate you".
So I do think its best to refrain from saying that to someone but to acknowledge that negative emotion about that person and work out a healthier way to deal with those feelings whether its talking to that person about how you felt when they did such and such or doing something else. But I think to deny or repress angry feelings is worst than saying "I hate you." Denying or not having an outlet to express can cause resentment and bitterness towards that person.
Anyway thats my view
Jessica 

[Sela]

I'll try to keep this one under 20,000 words ok?   Has anyone else ever written that much in one post???   Hope all of your eyes are not too strained after reading it all.  Thankyou, again.

Bean:  Maybe the expression of hate is not appropriate because then you're taking thoughts and feelings and putting them into words, which is dangerously close to action.

I don't think I'm arguing our right to express ourselves.  I think I'm reminding us all of our responsibility to do so in a reasonable manner that doesn't cause more harm.  I don't even really mean to remind anyone here even.  I think I want concrete proof that saying:  "I hate you" is a good thing!!  (   Like I'll accept it??  Hahahaha!  Probably not!!)

We used to hate adulterers and criminals enough to throw them in a pen with lions and bring our families to watch the spectacle on Saturday afternoons.  We've evolved since then and I really believe we are bound to evolve some more.  We aren't just animals reacting or going on instinct, we can think and make choices.

Perhaps sheltering from the knowledge that hate exists (even within them) is an act of control on your part.

I don't believe I've sheltered them from that at all.  We've discussed all kinds of stuff.  I don't think I try to control my children but I do try to guide and encourage them.   I don't think those two are the same?  Maybe close?  I don't know.  I taught them to say:  "I feel......."  or "I'm mad, sad, happy whatever because whoever did whatever" and  not "You anything...".

In fact, I think that's a pretty good rule for any parent to tell their kids.  But telling kids something is in my experience, less valuable then just teaching them by example.  So maybe they already know this about you, and it's likely they do Sela!

Thanks Bean.    I feel sane again.

Penny:  As soon as I read that your daughter has gone away to university, I thought, "Aha!"

Sorry Penny.  I should have been clearer.  My daughter moved to her dad's house a number of years ago and has been away at university for 2 years now.  This isn't a recent separation.  We went to therapy to help enhance our communication at a difficult time.  This was before she went off to school.

the parents can talk to the child about whats really bothering them and learn better ways of expressing hurt feeling rather than saying " I hate you".

I think the parents can do this before it gets to the point of anyone using words to inflict pain.  I think it begins when when they're really little.

But I think to deny or repress angry feelings is worst than saying "I hate you."

I agree.  The trick is parenting in such a way so as they feel comfortable to say what they feel to begin with and hopefully it won't get to a point of them repressing their feelings or if there is a problem happening....to seek help (but be picky about who you choose!!!!   learn from my mistakes!!).
 
 You will never doubt your decision to discontinue with him!!!

Thankyou Penny.  Very true.
 
Some people are not even worth your deepest feelings and convictions anyway.  I truly think anything intelligent you might have said to him would have gone right over his head.

Thanks for this.  You're probably right.  And thanks for saying you don't think I need to change my word measuring.  Sometimes I feel like I can be assertive and firm and other times, people intimidate me, like that doc did, and I feel like a fool.  That should be a warning to me that they aren't worth my deepest feelings, as you say.  Thanks.

Portia:   I guess I don’t think we’re all as in control of our brains as we like to think we are!

I agree with this to a certain extent.  Nothing is absolute.  But basically speaking, we do have the power to control ourselves.  We are not big emotional balloons without brains.  Restraint isn't such a bad thing, sometimes.  I guess, I just personally believe that "I hate you" is hitting below the belt.  It may be a strong feeling that needs to be expressed, no doubt, but does it need to be expressed AT anyone??    The other person's feelings must be considered totally worthless and of no value, right?

Emotional brain is in control. I listened to a murderer talk about it, one who murdered not for any gain, simply out of pure emotional aggression. This is not an excuse of course…..

No it's not.  But people like to use it as an excuse.  "I lost control".  I wonder how many times that's been said in court.  My parents lost control too.  Other people's parents/partners have done the same.  Or have they?

Isn't there a split second when a person decides to act?  Have you ever walked away?  I have.  I'm no super woman.  I just choose.  So can anyone, imo.  I don't buy "my emotional brain was in control" really.  Isn't the truth....the person just didn't restrain themselves.  Chose not to bother.  Chose to allow themselves to do whatever.....say ...whatever?  I don't believe they had/have noooo control over their own behaviour.  If they aren't in charge, who is

About ‘Why do you always have to be the sane one?’ – not suggesting you join the crowd! Suggesting you voice your own strong opinions forcefully occasionally, in a controlled way.

Am I doing that yet??

I get it.  Thanks P.

Has your D ever said “I hate you” to anyone, to you? How about “I despise/dislike/abhor/detest/loathe you”? Are these words of equal emotional value to you?

No.  Not to me.  I don't think to others either.  My daughter expresses herself and her feelings quite well, I think.  She'll tell me:  "I feel blank about blank" and seems to know what she feels and what event has contributed.

You said the words cause pain. It depends doesn’t it?

Ok Portia.  Maybe not every single time the words are said to every single person will they hurt but generally speaking, it is a pretty painful thing to hear, for many, don't you think?  Ofcourse it depends on who.

I love you” is a strong statement too. Do you say that it is very important not to use this phrase unless you really mean it? Not to use this phrase profligately because it will devalue it; or the listener might get the wrong idea? And that could cause pain later  ….. “but you said you loved me!!!! how could you say/do this if you love me?” kinda thing.

Well.....actually.....yes.  I don't use those words unless I mean them.  So for me, those are powerful words. 
I don't say how could you do this or that if you love me.  I don't expect perfection.  Just reasonable.   Reasonable is good, I think.  Usually.  Have a left enough grey area while firmly stating my point? ( )

My questions wasn't:  Is it ever ok to say "I hate you"?  it was:  Is it ok?  I mean usually.  As a rule.  On a regular basis  sort of?? (I hope not!!)

Yes there is a level of comparison

I think this is what I was trying to say.  My mother endured many, many years of physical and emotional abuse.  Compared to my short life, at the time, her pain just seemed bigger to me.....longer.......more intense.  I could see she was really .......sick.......from it.  I didn't feel that far gone.  I had pain, yessiree, but I wasn't losing it!  She was.   Everyone has a limit.

 Can you really compare her mental pain to yours and say she was kind of more deserving of pity, compassion, excuses…..than you?

I can.  But I have a feeling you won't buy it.
No, ofcourse not, when you put it that way.  It's just that I felt like I still had plenty of hope....my life ahead of me.....soon I'd be gone from there....and I would get "well", where she.......was going downhill.  There was no coming back from where she was.  And she went.

She got rid of some of her pain by sending it your way. Who did you have to give it to? Sorry Sela, I don’t think her pain was bigger than yours.

Thankyou Portia.  Bigger probably isn't the right word.  It's like the same thing I said to you, once.  The old frog in the pot of slowly warming water.  Pain is pain, whether it is incidious or sudden.  Her pain was pretty big.  My pain was big too.  I didn't have anyone to help me, you're right.  Except God.

I think that’s you excusing her behaviour in some way?

No.  I think her behaviour was terrible.  But I do understand that she was mentally and emotionally ill and physically depleted, a long way from perfect, at the time.    She projected.    It was wrong and she could have taken responsibility for it later.  She didn't and that is really, in  a way....worse.    I know she didn't hate me.  She loved me.  She said so plenty and showed it in lot's of ways.  But she didn't show it with that sentence or in the time afterward.  But......as I say......she was losing it.  So really, how can I expect her to behave "normally"??  It seems silly to expect a diabetic to be able to eat sugar cubes doesn't it?

I didn't hate her when she said that to me.  I felt hurt.  Rejected.  Discarded.  Bad.  Until I realized it was the "abuse" talking (did I just coin a phrase??? ).  I don't mean to joke.  But isn't that what it is?  My mother would have been such a different person had she not lived for all those years being abused.  She acted badly but she wasn't bad.  Talking about it has helped.  Thanks.

I’m impressed with the word count! That would have freaked me out, another automated message telling me I’m a bad person!!

Ya, well my first thought was:  "Oh no!!  I'll have to start deleting stuff!!"

Jessica: I was raised that to say "I hate you" is evil.

Now this seems like the extreme.  I think it can and usually is.....hurtful and there are ways to express anger without doing that.  But evil??  That would make whoever says this.......evil!!!
(((((((((Jessica))))))).

I never said it to her but I sure as hell felt that towards her. Those hurt and angry feelings that were anable to be expressed to her cause me alot of confusion and heart ache.

I'm sorry for this Jessica.  I really think you can go ahead now and get that all out, if you want to.  You don't have to keep it inside forever.

That's what I wanted to do and have done here.....in this thread.  I couldn't go to that T and express my feelings to him.  I don't want his memory in my head any more, so I had to get it out.  This was a good way.  Go ahead, if you want to.  See if you can top my 50, 60000??? character post!!   No one will mind!!

  I didn't feel love from my mum and when she said things like that, it would  confirm my belief that she didn't love me enough. Every child needs love.

I'm so sorry.  That is very sad and it makes me feel angry for your mom's behaviour!!  Talk some more if you want, really.

I do think its best to refrain from saying that to someone but to acknowledge that negative emotion about that person and work out a healthier way to deal with those feelings whether its talking to that person about how you felt when they did such and such or doing something else

I think so too.  Thanks Jessica, for posting.  Please talk more if you like.   (((((((Jessica)))))))

Sela

[Portia]

Hiya Sela, I don’t know how much I’ve written and I don’t want to know! But no, I’ve not had that particular message. I’m going to go into detail about one thing. It feels quite raw some of this so that’s a sort of warning to anyone reading. It’s not comfortable.

Isn't there a split second when a person decides to act?  Have you ever walked away?  I have.  I'm no super woman.  I just choose.  So can anyone, imo.  I don't buy "my emotional brain was in control" really.  Isn't the truth....the person just didn't restrain themselves.  Chose not to bother.  Chose to allow themselves to do whatever.....say ...whatever? 

That split second…yes…and I have walked away, many times, made the choice. What about the few times I haven’t I wonder? (I won’t include times when I was in an externally-caused chemically-altered state…but as for internally-caused chemically-altered state…who knows?!) I can remember doing some things as a young adult; it’s difficult remembering my mental state – but in that split second I would say “I wasn’t thinking” – what does that mean? I’m trying to go back to specific incidents: throwing a glass against a wall in a club – right now I have no idea why I did that, I can’t find the reason. I was about 20 and can now see a picture of me doing it. In this picture I feel about 3/4. The action is an expression of anger, hurt and I would say voicelessness….I acted instead of speaking. Why didn’t I choose to speak, yell, walk away instead? Well….I didn’t walk away because…as far as I can remember .. there was nothing external to walk away from. Whatever was bugging me was inside me I feel. And I kind of knew that at a ‘control’ (higher thinking?) level. Something was inside me and it went down my arm and found the nearest object to throw. Yes it was me, but … what caused it?

I had one dissociating experience when I was 3/4/5 (where my rage, anger, confusion and probably terror took me into my silent mother’s watching eyes) and afterwards (back in me) I picked up a pen or pencil and threw it in anger on the floor. “Pick it up” he said. I wouldn’t. I was absolutely silent. “Pick it up” and again. The remembered moment lasted a very long time! And eventually I ‘broke’ and picked it up. Such a seemingly insignificant incident perhaps, but I felt broken, totally controlled, in his will. I had no option (if I wanted to live). I had no choices open to me. Children often don’t have any choices.

That bastard. I hated him right then. I still hate him in that moment - his actions? No, I can honestly say I hate him in that moment. He wasn’t my parent, he was someone who had just turned up and taken over. Was controlling my mother. This was a man who used to love his male cats. They used to lie on his legs. Sometimes he would have a cat on his chest and would put his forehead up against the cat’s head and would stare into the cat’s eyes for ages; presumably trying to out-stare the cat? Nutter. He was quite nuts and I wonder how many functioning people are.

I don't believe they had/have noooo control over their own behaviour.  If they aren't in charge, who is

A 3/4 year old, who doesn’t yet have a brain that reasons, a brain that is capable of logical cause and effect thought and can work out alternatives? Yes it’s still ‘them’ in control, but do we expect a child to choose between saying “I hate you” and walking away? A child can’t walk away when it is still dependent? What is it like to be 3 or 4 anyway. ?

I’m getting more convinced that every time I’ve “lost it” I’ve been right back to that experience. I have had big urges to throw stuff and to destroy stuff when I’ve been rage-emotional. I’ve wanted to paint words on the walls here (my beautifully painted walls!) in two foot high letters in black paint. What words…”go away leave me alone”. Many people do I guess. We even say “throwing our toys out of the pram” when someone gets angry.

She loved me.  She said so plenty and showed it in lot's of ways. 

I’m glad Sela, I am glad.

But she didn't show it with that sentence or in the time afterward.  But......as I say......she was losing it.  So really, how can I expect her to behave "normally"??  It seems silly to expect a diabetic to be able to eat sugar cubes doesn't it?

Did she decline after this, did she – here comes an old-fashioned expression – go mad? And if we ‘go mad’ do we still have reasoned choices about how we interact with others? Isn’t madness something that can happen to anyone at some point? Wasn’t I mad when I did those things?

Madness. I like the definition: insanity is not knowing the difference between what is in my head and what isn’t. Losing touch with reality. Hearing voices, seeing delusions. Many people are mad on this basis but it’s the severity I guess. And I think we can all have ‘moments of madness’, and we mean, insanity. It may have been an external chain of events which had triggered me, but I was reacting against something inside me, not directly against the external events.

I think when your mom said I hate you, she wasn’t in the reality right there, right then. I don’t think she was talking to you. I think maybe she was talking to her mother. I really don’t think it was ‘you’. Do you? You were there, I wasn’t, I don’t know.

I asked someone recently if they’d ever lost it – and I defined that as raging and losing control. They told me about the one event where in their terms they’d lost it. It was where someone had basically double-crossed them and they reacted to that person with a stream of words and actions – words and actions that related directly to the actual event, right then, in present-day reality. It sounded like justified rage (‘outrage’) to me. It didn’t sound as though what the person described was similar to my past experiences. There wasn’t that sense of not knowing why they had acted as they did, to me.

Maybe my rages were in-rage? I think I’m through with real-life rage now. It’s been five years so it’s looking good. Having read all this again, my, what I crazy one I look like to myself. Much better now thanks.