Author Topic: "N's don't get it, with apologies"  (Read 6925 times)

WRITE

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"N's don't get it, with apologies"
« on: June 01, 2007, 01:06:17 PM »
this jumped out at me from another thread, and I wanted to tell y'all about how I see it.

If we expect NPD people to understand apology we are not understanding NPD.

The person with NPD has internalised that their very survival depends upon the matter to hand: being right/ being in control/ being viewed as special etc.

They are incapable of the level of ego-detachment which is necessary for an open apology which might for example mean-

hey, I may not agree with you all the time and we may not be on the same page with this but I didn't mean to hurt you and this is my reparation for that and assurance that I do value you and will try to see your point too...

etc.

For the NPD it's like standing in a forest during a battle- the trees are nature and beautiful but they're just cover for enemy fire or tools to make sticks!

You can point out to the N- look at the beauty or whatever but even if there's a response it's on an intellectual level and there's a 'yes but' where the N is still expecting an attack or preparing to deliver one.

An apology in many ways is a letting go, an acceptance.

I have apologised many times even when I knew I was rigth in the first instance- because I went on to take someone else's 'power' or crossed a boundary or caused upset and I didn't really mean to...also the feeling that few things are important enough to cause harm is a big value for me.

I'm still working out how I get to live my values without being a victim in any way because I have a few people in my life who I have unhealthy patterns of relating to, but I didn't want to abandom them either and also in the case of ex I feel I have a duty to my son to remain engaged somewhat and involved with the family dynamic. Ex has some unfortunate attitudes like all NPD people, and he is really struggling to cope again now I have set this boundary of I want to divorce immediately.

But unlike last time in February I am prepared now, and stronger and clearer; and my son has all the coping skills and support he needs.

I did apologise to my ex this week, for all my bossiness over the years, for not letting him 'be a man' in his eyes but I also said 'how could I, I was afraid of you because you were out of control'.

He has gone back on his ADs and I am encouraging him to see the psychiatrist and get support which is not me; I have told him that my support may not be in his best interests because I also have a vested interest in taking care of myself.

An apology is an attempt to meet on level ground; NPD people are too insecure for this to work, they will always attempt to manouver a better position with inbuilt advantages and sense of superiority.

That's why so many of them are successful in worldly or business ways.

But that is why their apologies are somewhat hollow.

If they are in the forest and say 'oh yes, look at the pretty butterfly' it may be just a distraction tactic to gain a military stronghold!




Ami

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 05:28:01 PM »
Dear Lupine,
    Your daughter was so lucky to have you. I lived with that same behavior with 2 small children . My mother  sided with my husband.. She said ,"Don't think that you're coming here(my childhood home). I was left alone getting more and more mentally ill trying to raise my children and dealing with being betrayed.Your daughter is lucky to have you. I wish that I did  .                         Love Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
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isittoolate

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 06:04:33 PM »
maybe i'm cRazy but who is this about--the N demanding an apology or the non-n ApOLOGIZUNG JUST WHEN ASKED TO KEEP THE PEACE???

Ami

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 06:29:27 PM »
It is about the N apologizing and not meaning it                            Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

isittoolate

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 06:38:14 PM »
I would like to know why an N is asking for apologies and changing the reason for asking.--the harm done to him/her

isittoolate

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 08:11:00 PM »
lupine

What would happen if he demanded an apology from YOU?

debkor

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 09:17:01 PM »
Write,

Quote
If we expect NPD people to understand apology we are not understanding NPD.
Quote


Exactly write and that is why I put way to much time and energy into spending time with one.  But at that time I did expect an apology because I did not know anything about NPD.  I did not understand.  I took things very personal. 

Now that I do understand NPD I know that there would of never been one.  Well a sincere one. I would have gotten words like I"m sorry just like I got the words, I love you, I'm a nice guy, Words, Words Words,  Now I understand. 



Love
Deb


dandylife

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 09:19:51 PM »
I think Write is correct about the inability for an N to give a sincere apology. I've heard a million times "I'm sorry BUT you...." or "I'm sorry if I...." etc. etc.

The other thing that's very on the mark in Write's post is the part about the N clinging to "being right" or "being seen as right" or "more right". I had that experience just yesterday with an N. (more than once in one day actually.)

I'll just mention the lesser script - trying to remember the exact words:

context: he's getting off the antidepressant effexor, which during the process can make you experience what feel like "mini-shocks" in the head and hands

Me: So, how are you feeling?

Him: (leaning dramatically against the sink) Oh, I'll be fine. But I'm scared.

Me: Maybe a call to the doctor would be a good idea?

Him: (eyes staring like daggers) What makes you think a DOCTOR WOULD KNOW ANY MORE THAN I DO?

Me: Ummm. I don't know- maybe they NEED to know these things?

Him: I can't believe you can be so disrespectful to say that some DOCTOR knows more than I do. Doctors don't know these things. Family practitioners don't have  clue. I know way more.

Me: Sorry I brought it up. I'm sure you will do what you want.


This led into a new discussion later on where he brought up another situation where he thought I was being disrespectful.

It's crazymaking.

And he won't let it go. You are stuck there. Because you know you're right (what he's saying is preposterous) but who cares about being right? Everyone - even a normal person - but normal people can say - whatever. He can't. If I walk away and say he's right  -then I'm evil for ever having had the thought that someone else knows more than him. If I say "you are right, you must know more than a medical doctor", then you are betraying YOURSELF which is like murdering your own soul.

So you are stuck.

He BELIEVES he is smarter than a medical doctor.

Anyway - I agree with both assertions - they have trouble apologizing sincerely - and that they have this almost pathological need to be seen as right - smart - smartest.

By the way when we argue he almost always says something to the effect of "Ask any of our friends what they think, they'd back me up." Or he tells me I need to check with someone else and see what they think. ???To me, I just think how silly, I know inside myself what I think is right, I don't need to get someone to back me up. But for some reason that's very important to him.

I think N's look for outside validation.

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

isittoolate

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 09:22:57 PM »
Lupine

Somehow I am not being understood.

My daughter asked me for an apology (may be N-) for something that happened when she was about 12, then she would answer a question.

I apologized.

Then after some more emails, she told me I had not yet apologized to her. I said I did and she said I didn't. I re-sent the rmail with my apology and she said that was not what she wanted the apology for, told me and

-- I apologized again.

I soon gave up and decided she had taken on her ex-husband's  N personalitiy, as he had asked me to apoligize for whispering to him, "That's enough" , for which.....

I was dismissed from the family (1991) and it is still going on.

I am asking why he the N, and she the n? are so obsessed with apologies.

They are walking all over me and won't respond unless I apologize for something that makes no sense.
Izzy
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 09:29:14 PM by isittoolate »

Stormchild

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2007, 09:32:27 PM »
Aha, it looks to me as though there are two threads in one here -

one thread about Ns being unable to apologize or ever even admit that they are mistaken about anything,

and another thread about Ns demanding, at the same time, that we apologize to them, repeatedly, forever, when we have not done anything wrong.

That, I think, is where the confusion has arisen.

Both are true. Two sides of the same coin. [Edit in: and for crying out loud, there it is again. The Double Standard. They will never apologize to anyone; but everyone must apologize to them!]

Write, excellent post, thank you for starting this thread!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 10:03:29 PM by Stormchild »
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isittoolate

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2007, 09:37:18 PM »
THANK YOU  Stormy

God! I thought no one would ever see what  I was saying!
izzy

lupine

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2007, 10:15:35 PM »
Quote
I am asking why he the N, and she the n? are so obsessed with apologies.

I think I know what you're talking about now!  Thanks

Confounded

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2007, 12:37:02 AM »
OMG.  Sometimes I find it rather chilling when I see so many behaviors and statements in all of your descriptions of N's that I too have seen and heard.  It's really weird.  I had NO idea that when I was told that H had N tendencies, it was because it was DUH obvious, to any T in the world.  All of it, even down to this:

Quote
By the way when we argue he almost always says something to the effect of "Ask any of our friends what they think, they'd back me up."


Ahhhh!  You cannot imagine how many hours I used to spend arguing with H, trying to get him to acknowledge my feelings, or opinions, or even bold-faced facts.  Nope.  He was right and I was wrong.  That was all there was to it.  I could "ask anybody."  They would say that he was right.

Well eventually, I DID.  Guess what.  Our neighbors had a completely different story to tell about H's first wife.  Instead of "light and airy" as he described, i was told that she was extremely depressed by the shrink on one side, and ultra-passive by the scientist on the other side.

I say that if they want you to get a second opinion, go get it.  I also find that using online reference sources to solve arguments works really well.   Of course, if he puts me through and endless round of red herrings, BS, and simply not making any sense, he will never apologize.  He will never, ever, volunteer an apology for his behavior.  Heck, if he walked on your foot hard enough to bruise it, he probably wouldn't apologize.  I would be your own fault for having your foot where he was walking.

birdy750

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2007, 08:06:49 AM »
I have a NPD file where I save articles of interest--I'm sure we all do!! OR a fridge full!! This is rather sarcastic--but true --and funny--from the "bitch rant" site I think!!! You guys don't hear from me much as I don't type --But I'm here every day and feel close to many of you--Hi.

How NOT to Apologize when you have Seriously Fucked Up.
by Annesthesia

1.) Apologize in email. Hey, why should you actually have to FACE the person you harmed and DEAL with the real consequences of your actions - like the fact that they might still be hurt and upset? It's so much easier to do it from a distance - that way you can go around telling everyone how you made all this EFFORT to rectify things. If questioned on this, you can fall back on your old excuses about how the other person is just too scary to face in person. (People you have betrayed aren't usually very compliant). Ignore the fact that this avoidance is completely contradicting any statements you might make about "taking responsibility" for your behavior (see below).

2.) Make sure the "confession", er, apology comes MONTHS or years after the incident. It's just too much work to actually own up immediately afterwards. Let's face it, you're not after any real resolution, and you are not offering any kind of restitution - you are looking to assuage your guilty conscience and buy absolution, and, if you play your cards right, you can get attention for your act of "bravery" in coming forward. If it's absolution you are looking for, why not join the Catholic church instead?
"Powerful and sneaky people use apologies as end runs around repentance. They betray a trust; and, when they have been found out, they say they are sorry for "mistakes in judgment". They smile through their oily apologies when their crime calls for quakes of repentance. They get by only because we have lost our sense of the difference between repentance for wrong and apologies for bungling.... We should not let each other get away with it. A deep and unfair hurt is more than a mere faux pas. We cannot put up with everything from everyone; some things are intolerable. When someone hurts us deeply and unfairly [deliberately], an apology will not do the job; it only trivializes a wrong that should not be trifled with."
-- Lewis B. Smedes, "Forgive and Forget"

3.) Use generic sweeping statements, so that you don't have to own up to, or deal with any specifics. This is a great way to avoid any REAL acknowledgement for the stunts you have pulled, while giving the appearance of sincerity. As Dr. Phil (C. McGraw) says:
"Acknowledgement is a no-kidding, unvarnished, bottom-line, truthful confrontation with yourself about what you are doing or not doing, or what you are putting up with in your life that is destructive. It's not some pious, phoney-baloney, half-hearted rendition of what you think they want to hear. Nor is it a watered-down, politically correct 'confession' that you think will buy you closure at the expense of truth. I mean brutal reality: slapping yourself in the face and admitting what you are doing to screw up your life. This also means admitting that you are getting payoffs for what you're doing, however sick or subtle those payoffs are."
And God knows, real acknowledgement and acceptance of responsibility is not what you were after or you wouldn't have apologized in email in the first place.

4.) Try to evoke sympathy for yourself as part of the apology. Use worn-out lines like "It may not mean much to you now...". Thank the person for their past "support" of you in your (largely self-inflicted) trials and tribulations as a not-so-subtle reminder of how "rough" things have been for you. You can also use this as a way to look magnanimous and introspective while avoiding taking any real action. Whine about how you are finally working on your "issues" (never mind that you have been saying the same thing for years), as if that is supposed to mean something real. Avoid any discussion about what you are doing *specifically* to work on those issues. After all, (despite your previous litany of lies) the person you are apologizing to should trust that you really mean what you say this time, right? Talk about how you are finally accepting responsibility for the consequences of your behavior, and then avoid making any effort to talk to the other person face to face. Talk about how you miss the fun you had with the other person (carefully avoiding any mention of the fun you had at that person's expense at the same time). See if there is still a chain left to be yanked. Remember, this is all about assuaging your conscience and repairing your damaged image - not about doing real work or genuine caring for the other person, but nobody else needs to know that. With a little careful manipulation, you can use this apology to get sympathy and attention from other people as well.

5.) Don't give any reasons about why you have suddenly decided to extend this tremendous effort (writing an email) after so much time has passed. It is equally important that you avoid replying to any questions they might ask about specifics. Remember, this isn't really about making amends, it's about making yourself feel better.
 
6.) Expect instant redemption and forgiveness. Remember, no matter what you have done, a few words are supposed to magically wipe away all the pain of the past with no further work required by you. Now that you have made a token gesture, the other person should just "forgive and forget" so that you find it easier to sleep at night.

7.) Get upset when your trite "olive branch" isn't received with warmth and acceptance. Go whining to whomever will listen, about how you made all this *EFFORT*, and how *HARD* it was for you to take that step (what with all your issues, and all), and how it was REJECTED because that awful person actually expected you to DO SOMETHING REAL. After all, you have ISSUES and such, and that means you should be exempted from behaving in a manner congruent to your words, and everyone should coddle you and praise even the smallest effort on your part.

8.) Take no further action. Use pat phrases like, "I'm doing my best to take responsibility for the consequences of my behavior", but don't actually DO anything beyond sending the email. It plays well, and you can always use that "doing my best" as your cop-out when you don't actually follow-through - it wasn't a REAL commitment to change, it was a "best-effort", and your emailed apology was a fine demonstration of how good THAT is. I can't stress enough how important it is that you don't reply to any questions the other person might have about your email, especially ones that ask "why now?", "what specifically do you acknowledge was inappropriate?" and "what specifically you are doing to take responsibility?". After all, you don't owe them any explanation. Like I said, this isn't about doing anything for *them*, it's all about YOU. Indicate in your original apology that you still have some of the other person's belongings, but don't actually make any effort to RETURN them, or contact the other person in any way. After all, once you've made your apology, you can wash your hands of the whole messy affair and wipe your conscience clean without having to dirty yourself with uncomfortable things like integrity, sincerity, action or actually facing the person you harmed.



Ami

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Re: "N's don't get it, with apologies"
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2007, 09:14:36 AM »
Dear Birdy,
    This is GENIUS. My N mother almost got me back after one of "these" apologies. This post said it all. 
                                                                                                    Thanks so much    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung