I am drowning in guilt-- Help

[Ami]

i wrote about this on another thread   "Contacting my 80 yr old mother,"but I need  help badly ,so I wanted to write it here.
  I am washing away in guilt. I never knew what this feeling WAS, before. I just knew that I wanted to punish myself somehow(by overeating  and getting a stomach ache or something). I just feel like I am a person who is despicable.
   I just talked to my M b/c I was calling my F. I was polite, but not "warm". I felt so, so guilty when I got off.
   I talked to my older son.. He really gets N's b/c an Assistant Manager where he works was an N. After that, we could share(from the heart) about N's..
   He said that we( as non N's) feel tremendous guilt when we are not "nice",but they can  kill us and feel no guilt. He said that his manager did so many terrible things to him and felt no guilt. He was always trying to "make it O.K." with her.She would call the company's 800 number and make up things about him( and other people) She felt no guilt. He felt guilty if he was "cool" to her.
  My son said that my M is the same way. She would not help me when I and this son were being physically abused and felt NO guilt. I feel guilty when I am coolly polite.
   I just needed to write about this. THIS is why I hate myself. This has been the reason that I have done all these self destructive and non nurturing things. This is probably why I feel like I am a "bad" person.
  It has always been so hard for me to feel like I can take care of myself-- that I am worth it.. I am  always punishing myself . I never knew WHY I felt so deserving of punishment..Now, I am getting a glimpse.
  I don't really get all the dynamics of this,but I know that it is a big,big,big issue for me. Maybe ,someone else can see what I cannot. I can't see the whole thing,just a slice. I think that this issue is a core one to my healing,though. Thanks for listening                       Love  Ami

[Tweety]

Hey Ami,
I'm processing so much myself with this, but i can definitely relate to the GUILT of responding "politely cool". That type of guilt you are talking about is what has always sent me back to N's. of course we know how that always turns out, more pain than being "politely cool" and than the guilt and the CYCLE begins again. The Merry Go Round Of Denial that it will somehow be different next time. All I can say my friend is to get off the Merry Go Round. That guilt I now come to identify as "After Burn". When I finally take care of me(  politely, in word or actions etc) , I just have to sit with it now, and not let it hook me back on to the Merry Go Round. I have become better at sitting with it and not letting  it control  me and sending me back for a nother ride on the Merry Go Round . The only thing for me is to stay detached from them and not engage, and if that means ending the relationship, or just N/C for a while than so be it. Hope that helps. Don't let the afterburn of being "Politely Cool" (which by the way is healthy, you are not letting them hook you in any farther) send you back to the spiral of death, feeling guilty, shame.
I was so caught up in this cycle for years, so please believe me when I say with all sincerity, If I can do it you can to. Sitting with my feelings is not an easy task for me. I didn't realise I didn't have  react to them,  just feel them, heal and  release them. I think the N's in my life counted on me reacting to them, That was part of their control over me. I'd either stuff them( Over ate)  and ignore them (denial) , act on them, standing up for myself ( No one ever listened or respected me, as if I wasn't there) . They provoked any kind of feeling response from me humanly possible, because I have come to believe they couldn't feel or they were too lazy to feel, why should they I was doing all the feelings for all of us, felt feelings that weren't even mine. Sometimes I think they just enjoyed provoking any response from me just for kkicks. I'm a very passionate person ... Sorry I'm going off on a little tangent here....hum.. Think I'm a tad bit angry now. Sometimes until I can process things and write them in a way that everyone will understand is still a little hard for me, I'm a lLittle intimidated by you all who put your words together so well .  So as I said before I hope this helps you, in the very least at least you know your not alone, even if I'm a bit all over the page.  Just got back from seeing my Mother, whom I haven't seen in over a month and I guess I'm feeling a little After Burn myself
Love Tweety

[Ami]

Thanks Tweety,
   You express yourself beautifully . That really, really helps.                                   Love   Ami

[Tweety]

Your welcome (((((((((Ami))))))))
and thank you
Love, Tweety

[Tweety]

P. S.
There was another awareness that I had about this guilt death spiral I go through. The way I answered , responded to the N's , ya know the back atcha , stand up for yourself , I'm not taking your crap attitude , always left something for me to feel guilty about , and according to my therapist was of course a learned response and subconsciously a way to keep me tied to them , ( well she's my mother or husband of course I'm tied to them  I protested) , until I really examined that I was truly able to respond in a way that i didn't "leave" with something to feel guilty about and so I arrested the pattern, I guess I was sabotaging myself and didn't know it, but hey I can't beat myself up about it , they were survival skills .  Does that make sense to you?

[Ami]

Dear Tweety,
  That is deep--- Cheech and Chong.
   I get it. We think we are being"independent " but we are actually setting ourselves up so that we can go on to the next round.
   True Detachment does not manage to set us up with guilt so then can go on to phase two  -- where we suck up to them. Then, they are nice for a while, then they jump on us again.Then, the whole thing begins again  Do you agree with the rest of the cycle?           Thanks so much ,Tweety   Love  Ami

[Gaining Strength]

Ami - could this feeling of guilt actually be shame.  N parents project their own shame onto one or more of their children because they cannot bear the burden themselves.  Their pain to too great to accept their own limitations.  I was the scapegoat of BOTH of my parents and through the last 12 or 14 months have learned to let go of that actually, physically as well as psychologically paralyzing shame.

Here is a simple version of a technique that I use.  (I picked it up from many, many sources.)  When you feel the guilt, stop and immediately think or say to yourself, "Oh No! This is not my guilt.  This belongs to my N mother.  I will NOT carry this for her any MORE!!!  Sorry Mom, I am now a mirror and this guilt is simply going to be reflected back to you.  It is not mine and I will not hold it for you anymore. Period!!! The end!!!"  You can do this with any memory you have of a guilt inducing experience with her.  Think of an episode and even in your memory refuse to take it on.  See if that helps.  If it does then experiment with it and find the best version for you.  It may be different for different memories or experiences.

I truly hope that you can come to let go of that feeling.  There is nothing life giving in it.  It is only life sapping.  don't hold it for her anymore.  You deserve better.  Try saying that to yourself - "I deserve better."  If it's hard at first you know you are in the right place.  Just keep saying it over and over and over.  That simple phrase can make dramatic changes in your life.  Just by repeating it over and over and over you can actually come to believe it.  Sounds crazy but I'm living proof.  When I first started, just thinking the phrase caused me to look around to see if anyone was looking (and I was alone in my bedroom.)  When I first started saying that phrase to myself, in my mind, it almost made me nauseous.  I would feel a flash of fever across my brow and beads of sweat would break out. Honestly.  But now I believe it and it is changing my life - I promise.

I truly want you to find freedom from that wretched feeling.  You do deserve so much better and your post shows that you are making significant progress.  I believe you will see the fruits of your efforts very soon. - Your friend - Gaining Strength

[Tweety]

Yes, yes, yes by George I think we got it Cheech
True Detachment does not manage to set us up with guilt so then can go on to phase two  -- where we suck up to them.[/u but right here in this process is where you stop, you arrest the process...... no sucking up , no nothing , you just detach emotionally, no expectations from them , because then you or on the horse on the Merry Go Round
Love Chong

[Tweety]

I agree with you Strength.
Projecting their shame is a BIG ONE as well, guilt and shame went hand and hand for me too. I couldn't figure out whose feelings were whose and I knew some of them weren't mine especially the shame...........that was the killer that damaged me to the core. that I internalized , that damaged my self esteem , my ability to be at peace with myself and think I was worthy of love and respect and most of all an abusive free relationship. Great advice that works well with talking back to the after burn as I call it
Love Tweety

[isittoolate]

I think this is really pathetic, Ami

I am so sorry for you, and pity you terribly that you cannot rise above the abuse and make a new life for yourself. I think you have not yet seem the value of NC and that is also NTE

Your mother will always be in your head and soon you will be a crazy as she, if you don't erase her from your thoughts.

Should you choose to  (right now, anyway) have Contact with your N husband and N son you are being battered from all sides and no one can help you until you get out of the line of fire.

Only you can do that. If you don't then you are being seen as the professional victim--crying for help and looking for pity and no one can help you but you--then they pound you more because they know you will just moan and take it.

[Bella_French]

Ami, My take on it is that you are a very  sweet person by nature, and naturally sensitive to other peoples needs. You are a beautiful woman. I think that of course it would feel bad for you to be `cool' towards someone you think wants more warmth from you (even if you have extremely good reasons to do that). Such behaviour contradicts your natural warmth and sensitivity. What your feelings are saying to me is that you have not sacrificed who you really are, and that is a positive thing to me.

The problem I found with being surrounded by N's and/or selfish people, is that I either winded up playing their `game' on their terms in order to get what I wanted (and i never could play as mean as them, and  I resented that i had to give up some of my `niceness' to play at all), or I would `play' by my`sweeter'  rules and get walked all ove and deeply hurt.

I never liked either option, an i still don't. I found that the best thing for me was to strive to be around people with goodness and honor. I didn't want to adapt to N's any more.

I am so sorry that you're surrounded right now. Please believe me when I say that you are not the problem.

[Ami]

Dear Friends 
Thank you for responding. I am going on another twisting,turning path in order to find the rest of my core. I feel,inside, certain ways that I need to go ,even though they may not make logical sense. my heart is leading me and the heart can not always be explained in simple terms like NC.
  I have to tell you that I am in the middle of a Huge healing and insight.
    Last night, I started feeling SO guilty so I wrote this thread. I was desperate. People answered and I SAW the pattern of WHY I hated myself and always felt like I needed to punish myself. I SAW that I could not have any independent feeling or thought or I thought that I was a terrible person.Also, She could KILL me, but I could not say a simple "no" or i felt guilty.
   Last night, I could not help myself (from overeating) and I had a stomach ache all night along. I was miserable ,BUT I SAW the pattern. I always had to punish myself b/c of interactions with her when I was not her CLONE. That was a huge answer. Tweety and GS responded with understanding.I felt that I was not alone
  I saw it. It is amazing. I always wondered,:'Why do I hate myself so much?"the answer is she put a "chip" in me so make me self destruct when ever I might get some strength or self trust or respect.I hope that someone has been here. I feel more "real" so I know that I have gotten to a new level of healing.
 Also, I had another HUGE thing happen. Last week, I e mailed my mother and finally told the truth-- for the first time in my life.. She e mailed me back. What was so amazing was that she said that she WAS an NPD . She apologized for sickening me and throwing all her pain on me.
   However, THIS is not the biggest thing of the interaction. The BIGGEST thing is that I saw that she had no or little clue this whole time about how she was. The fact that she could accept the NPD label so easily showed me that she does not have a clue about her effect on others. She is a freight train --out of control-- on the tracks,but not really knowing the damage she is doing,THIS was my huge insight. I think that she only apologized b/c she saw a lot of strength . also, I threatened to call her office and tell them her history IF she did anything else to me. Also, b/c I am friends with my F and she is out in the cold.
  However, I hope that I am communicating the huge insights that I have gotten .I really would love to hear from anyone who has grown in this way or any opinion. .
  To the people who feel that NC is a hard and fast rule. I ,only have to say that I have to follow my heart. I always have from the beginning of my healing process. People gave me "good advice" like see a therapist,but my heart told me just to keep going within and being honest.People say that NC is a hard fast rule. I have to follow my heart( God inside) and go where my heart takes me.
                                                                                                                   Love   Ami
 

[Gaining Strength]

Wow!  That is so exciting Ami.

Yes,  I am wih you - follow your heart.  NC is the rule when it is right for the person and circumstances.  I have used it at times when I needed it.  But there have been times that I needed to get into the fray to get to the problem.

BTW, lack of insight is one of the charateristics of Ns.  It has been something that has taken me quite some time to understand  about my mother - she has absolutely no insight - into herself nor anyone else.  I find that I can't have a relationshp, a meaningful relationship, with anyone who lacks insight.  They are not able to access and meaningful part of themselves.

Next time you are thrown into self-destructive behavior you will be able to be gentl with yourself because you will recognize the excruciatingly painful source.  My self-destructive behavior is paralysis.  I am getting much much better but still suffer from it almost daily.  But finally I no longer beat myself up about it but identify it as a result of the horrendous experience of my life and remind myself that self-criticism simply plays into the Ns destructive patterns that I now choose not to continue.  I remind myself that I am on a healing path and that the self-destruction will pass and pass soon.  and then I set a very small goal concerning that destructive pattern for the moment - after I do something to thwart the pain such as reading or taking an epsom salt bath (to replenish the magnesium lost due to stress).  So when I feel self-destructive I identify the source (Ns), stop berating myself for the behavior, do something positive to help with the pain (relax in some way or something self protective - even TV counts) and then I make astep to do something positive even if it is only THINKING something positive because I know if I counter that negative behavior even in some small way I am changing that negative pattern.

I am so very excited for you.  You are at the beginning of significant changes. - your friend - GS

[gratitude28]

Ami,
This should help...
My parents made me feel guilty for years that I had moved away. For years and years I played the good daughter role and called them and kept up with them.
One day about a year ago and after I had figured out everything about the N stuff and that I was not the problem in the whole relationship... my mother said something that was just plain rotten. I stopped calling for a while. And ever since I have talked to them less that ever. And, you know what? They neither notice nor care. There is no point in feeling guilty, because you don't matter unless they are bored or need something. Other than that, you unnecessary to them.
Love, Beth

[Ami]

Thank you so much GS and Beth,
  One of my huge insights is that my suffering means so little to her, She does not 'see"it. My heart told me to have contact and I needed to. If not, I would not have seen these things. I will just go step by step and see where my heart leads me(as far as e mail , phone etc)
  I am really shocked that she cannot feel or see my pain. She knows that I am so thin and can barely eat. It is like,'Oh,it is a warm day." to her. I know that I almost died so that she would come and help me.(magical thinking) Also, I was trying to keep her reality intact.by taking her reality on (magical thinking).Also, she would so easily accept the label"NPD" just so she could be my "friend" like my F is. This ,also, shows me that she has no clue about herself or her destruction to others. This is a HUGE insight. I ALWAYS wanted to punish her. I wanted her to go to hell,literally, so I could think that she would finally get what was coming to her. I see her now as more of a retarded person(emotionally). I don;t think she knows the long term effects that she had on me. I think that she has no clue  that she hurt me the way that she did(practically destroyed me). I am shocked that she could have so little insight. It is mind blowing. The AMAZING thing is SHE does not see or hear any of it. I am in shock,but it is a good shock b/c it is REAL. I am seeing "real" things . Today, I feel wonderfully "real". My stomach still hurts from too much food last night(punishment). However, it was worth the insights to replay the pattern one more time.(Hopefully the last time). I am not blocking reality . I could never, ever face these things without you, Friends.THANK YOU SO MUCH
  I am getting to the root of my distortions that I took on when I was a child-- probably to save my sanity . I have to forgive myself for "morphing" in to a monster of my own.                                                                       Love   Ami