Author Topic: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?  (Read 1306235 times)

BonesMS

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1020 on: November 04, 2009, 08:12:31 PM »
Thanks, (((((((((((((((Ami))))))))))))))))))))))

Bones
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Ami

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1021 on: November 04, 2009, 08:20:23 PM »
You are welcome(((Sweetie)))))             Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
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nolongeraslave

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1022 on: November 05, 2009, 10:19:17 AM »
My N mom expects me to undress in front of her without feeling ashamed, even if I'm fully naked.  This is just occurring to me now that this is strange. I was trying on clothes for the wedding, and she doesn't even let me have my privacy when I'm changing. She also has a strange habit of walking into fitting rooms with me, without even asking. 

When I tell her "Turn around. I'm changing," she rolls her eyes.

When I was young, I just dealt with it. Now that I'm 26, I feel very AWKWARD having her expect me to undress in front of her and stand there topless.  :?

No wonder I had such poor sexual boundaries growing up! My N mom is indirectly telling me that my body isn't mine and that it's some kind of "show" for everyone.

That's how I feel at least.

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1023 on: November 05, 2009, 11:58:14 AM »
NLAS, your remark made me realize that sometimes I do that to my daughter ... my intentions are not to embarrass her, but that despite my intentions maybe I do. For example, sometimes we will get the "handicapped" dressing room at a store, and it's really big, and I don't see the point of staying outside when she can hand me the clothes and I can hang them back up for her. But in my defense, in those situations she keeps her underwear on AND I don't deliberately look at her, in fact, I deliberately look away. Her bathroom is being remodeled right now, and the other night she took a bath in my bathroom ... I had to "go potty" and so I went in there but I deliberately looked down at the floor as I went in and out (the "potty" is in a separate enclosure inside the bathroom). She's not so paranoid anymore but a few years ago she would shriek if I saw her changing ... and it would aggravate me because I wasn't on purpose looking at her, and something sexual never crossed my mind --- not only am I heterosexual but I'm not a pedophile or some kind of incestuous freak either !! (The "freak" word is used to describe perpetrators ... I would never even think that about a victim ...).

Anyway, regardless of what I am or am not thinking, if she feels like her private space is invaded maybe I should take it more seriously. I do think she takes it too far --- she NEVER tells me when she has her period, and most of the time won't even tell me when she's had a migraine. Once she said that several months in the past she actually passed out from a migraine and didn't tell me. You would think that we didn't care or that we had been abusive, which we have not. She is adopted and was traumatized in the first 2 years of life, and I don't think she has ever fully recovered.

nolongeraslave

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1024 on: November 05, 2009, 12:10:36 PM »
HOP, I hope I didn't make you feel bad.  I don't think you're intentionally invading your daughter's privacy either.  Maybe you could ask her how she feels about it.

Maybe I'm just so angry at my NM right now that every little thing is bothering me.  My mom criticizes my weight, so maybe that's why I don't like to undress in front of her. She will be able to see the flaws in my  body and point them out.

BonesMS

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1025 on: November 05, 2009, 06:10:28 PM »
My N mom expects me to undress in front of her without feeling ashamed, even if I'm fully naked.  This is just occurring to me now that this is strange. I was trying on clothes for the wedding, and she doesn't even let me have my privacy when I'm changing. She also has a strange habit of walking into fitting rooms with me, without even asking. 

When I tell her "Turn around. I'm changing," she rolls her eyes.

When I was young, I just dealt with it. Now that I'm 26, I feel very AWKWARD having her expect me to undress in front of her and stand there topless.  :?

No wonder I had such poor sexual boundaries growing up! My N mom is indirectly telling me that my body isn't mine and that it's some kind of "show" for everyone.

That's how I feel at least.

I can relate!

Bones
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Ami

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1026 on: November 05, 2009, 06:35:06 PM »
The NM invades you. Mine did it emotionally . Actually, she did it physically, too. I was always afraid she would tell me she was a lesbiam and attracted to me. I would pray when my M got on the subject of lesbians that it would not get to this. I must have special angels cuz it didn't.
 NLAS, trust yourself.
 HOP, I bet your adopted D suffered before her adoption. I would not blame myself.      xxxoo  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

HeartofPilgrimage

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1027 on: November 05, 2009, 08:29:58 PM »
NLAS, No, I didn't feel bad, I just was thinking that I don't want to come across like your mother did to you ... that she doesn't have a right to privacy. But thanks, you gave me something to think about!

binks

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1028 on: November 06, 2009, 12:12:14 PM »
I've always had to work hard at having some boundaries. I was never allowed boundaries or privacy growing up so I never developed any sense of personal space or boundaries.

I have been careful with my daughter as much as possible, always knocking on her bedroom door and treating her space with respect, but I too fall down about the changing room situation.

We have often gone swimming together, and one pool has a few changing cubicles and a very large open plan changing area. I prefer the open plan bit as you get plenty of space. Lots of women use this area and I think it is good that we are not ashamed of our bodies. My daughter doesn't like to use the communal changing area and I have often tried to encourage her to do so. This is probably a mistake on my part though.

Ami - that is really weird, I used to think the same as you. That my mother would say she was attracted to me. I have never told anyone before, and it makes my flesh crawl thinking about it. She often told me things about her sex life that were highly inappropriate for my age. Yet somehow she was also a complete prude when it came to me growing up and having boyfriends.

BonesMS

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1029 on: November 06, 2009, 05:56:13 PM »
I'm back after taking a 3-day FEMA class.  I must say that I learned a lot and, unfortunately, found myself dealing with an N on my team!   :P

I couldn't help but notice that EVERY TIME the teams were given an assignment, she would do a DISAPPEARING act!  At one point, when someone tracked her down and ordered her to return to the assignment, she attempted to DICTATE TO US WITHOUT REALLY DOING ANYTHING WITH THE ASSIGNMENT!  (Sound familiar?)

At one point, when I was trying to express an opinion regarding an assignment we were all supposed to be working on as a team, she kept cutting me off in mid-sentence, SEVERAL TIMES!  Her attitude was that SHE KNOWS EVERYTHING AND KNOWS OUR THOUGHTS AND KNOWS WHAT IS BEST FOR US, (but NOT DOING her part)!   :P  Finally, after she interrupted me for about the THIRD or FOURTH TIME, I finally snapped off at her:  "I have been trying to express my thoughts and YOU KEEP CUTTING ME OFF!!!!  THAT is making me CRAZY and you need to KNOCK IT OFF!!!!"  She stopped butting in and cutting me off after that but still continued to "half-a$$" her part of the assignments that our team was given, which created problems for the whole team when it came time to give a presentation in front of everyone!  (I'm sure the instructor noticed!)

When it came time to take the final exam, you can guess who bugged out WITHOUT taking the test NOR filling out ANY of the required paperwork!  If you guessed "Little Miss N", you are RIGHT!!   :P :P

The material was a challenge to learn and retain, especially given that I have never role-played being in command during a disaster, incident, or event, before.  Having my patience tested by an N didn't help matters any!   :P

Hopefully, I'll know by next week or so if I passed the final exam or not.

Bones
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BonesMS

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1030 on: November 07, 2009, 08:52:22 PM »
The experience reminded me of what I went through with a group communication class I took several years ago....very similar scenario!!!

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Ales2

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1031 on: November 07, 2009, 11:36:06 PM »
((((Bones)))  Sounds like you dealt with little miss N okay.  When you noticed she was likely an N - did you say to yourself "sh**" or "no problem, I can handle her" or somewhere in between? I'm curious.

Talk about violating boundaries - on wednesday, I had a job interview. After that, I went to meet my brother, who I'd spoken to about having a "we are adults - we have boundaries" type discussion with NM. She's been causing havoc for both of us lately. My brother discovered 10 years ago  in his first divorce that our Mother was BPD and was likely the reason he picked his first wife. He is going through T again, as he and his second wife have taken some time apart to work things out.  He told me about this BPD discovery a couple of months ago and we seemed to have shared some information that has made me feel closer to him. 

Anyway, so we met and it was an awful experience. He has become so one-sided about his version of the events and thinks his T process is giving him all the answers, including telling me what my problems are. But he was way off base. He berated me about my choices, the words I use (trying a semantic game play on walls vs. defenses vs. boundaries). I discovered that he really was not listening. Also, he threw out some BS about "choices" like I could sell my car or take a job at Starbucks, rather than the choice I did make, which was to ask my NM for some assistance until I get another job. ( I got laid off in dec 07, went thought 23k savings in 08, 09, had no debt and paid off my car) I've been very financially responsible. If you can pay off your car on unemployment and have 23 k saved - thats not too bad. He told me he has to move in dec and he doesnt even have moving expenses and first/last, so he's the last person to be lecturing me about $$$.)  Going to her was dreadful and my last resort, but I dont regret it. 

At one point, I was in his car and he kept going on and I was feeling abused. I was getting hot and faint at the same time. When he got to the corner I said" I have to get out of this car". I jumped out and walked the 12 or so blocks to my car. He never turned back ,never called to ask what happened or if I was OK.  It was really awful. I felt violated as thought I trusted him with important information and he violated that trust by not being understanding and choosing to lecture me (and trust me, he has a lot of his own problems)

When I got back to my car, I called my T and went in on Friday for a session. He told me that my Brother was likely projecting his stuff, including the crap about choices, into me and it was about HIM not ME. I agreed, but what gets me the most is that he is now making assumptions about me based on misinformation that he might use to make conclusions, only to find they will be wrong in the future.  Additionally, my Brother didn't think I should take the job, because it means that I will be in very close proximity to Nm for a couple of months.  Ugh. I know this exchange will backfire someday.   My T really helped me this time -he said it was nothing to worry about - I felt it needed to be addressed by email as in "I got out of the car because I felt.......and you violated my boundaries because...... and we cant talk if you are not interested in listening because....."  T seems to think it was nothing to worry about since I cant control how he thinks, true, but I think I need to say "this hurt, I don't appreciate it".  I'm still thinking about this.

Needless to say, Brother and I never got to discuss the part about the boundaries with NM - so nothing was accomplished. We (me and brother) have still not spoken about the "I have to get out of this car" incident.

There are verbal boundaries and he really managed to cross mine this time. I wont allow it in the future. Its a violation of trust to discuss something or relevance to us BOTH and have him dominate this way.

I'd apprecaite your feedback.

Ales2

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1032 on: November 07, 2009, 11:47:08 PM »
And, Bones, kudos to you for starting the most popular, most read and most responded to thread....  :)

Ami

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1033 on: November 08, 2009, 07:34:35 AM »
((((Bones)))  Sounds like you dealt with little miss N okay.  When you noticed she was likely an N - did you say to yourself "sh**" or "no problem, I can handle her" or somewhere in between? I'm curious.

Talk about violating boundaries - on wednesday, I had a job interview. After that, I went to meet my brother, who I'd spoken to about having a "we are adults - we have boundaries" type discussion with NM. She's been causing havoc for both of us lately. My brother discovered 10 years ago  in his first divorce that our Mother was BPD and was likely the reason he picked his first wife. He is going through T again, as he and his second wife have taken some time apart to work things out.  He told me about this BPD discovery a couple of months ago and we seemed to have shared some information that has made me feel closer to him. 

Anyway, so we met and it was an awful experience. He has become so one-sided about his version of the events and thinks his T process is giving him all the answers, including telling me what my problems are. But he was way off base. He berated me about my choices, the words I use (trying a semantic game play on walls vs. defenses vs. boundaries). I discovered that he really was not listening. Also, he threw out some BS about "choices" like I could sell my car or take a job at Starbucks, rather than the choice I did make, which was to ask my NM for some assistance until I get another job. ( I got laid off in dec 07, went thought 23k savings in 08, 09, had no debt and paid off my car) I've been very financially responsible. If you can pay off your car on unemployment and have 23 k saved - thats not too bad. He told me he has to move in dec and he doesnt even have moving expenses and first/last, so he's the last person to be lecturing me about $$$.)  Going to her was dreadful and my last resort, but I dont regret it. 

At one point, I was in his car and he kept going on and I was feeling abused. I was getting hot and faint at the same time. When he got to the corner I said" I have to get out of this car". I jumped out and walked the 12 or so blocks to my car. He never turned back ,never called to ask what happened or if I was OK.  It was really awful. I felt violated as thought I trusted him with important information and he violated that trust by not being understanding and choosing to lecture me (and trust me, he has a lot of his own problems)

When I got back to my car, I called my T and went in on Friday for a session. He told me that my Brother was likely projecting his stuff, including the crap about choices, into me and it was about HIM not ME. I agreed, but what gets me the most is that he is now making assumptions about me based on misinformation that he might use to make conclusions, only to find they will be wrong in the future.  Additionally, my Brother didn't think I should take the job, because it means that I will be in very close proximity to Nm for a couple of months.  Ugh. I know this exchange will backfire someday.   My T really helped me this time -he said it was nothing to worry about - I felt it needed to be addressed by email as in "I got out of the car because I felt.......and you violated my boundaries because...... and we cant talk if you are not interested in listening because....."  T seems to think it was nothing to worry about since I cant control how he thinks, true, but I think I need to say "this hurt, I don't appreciate it".  I'm still thinking about this.

Needless to say, Brother and I never got to discuss the part about the boundaries with NM - so nothing was accomplished. We (me and brother) have still not spoken about the "I have to get out of this car" incident.

There are verbal boundaries and he really managed to cross mine this time. I wont allow it in the future. Its a violation of trust to discuss something or relevance to us BOTH and have him dominate this way.

I'd apprecaite your feedback.


Dear(( Ales)))
 Some relationships are too far gone to put any time or effort in it. I have a current one which fits that category. Why bother? Why try? It is like talking to a brick wall.
 I disengage and stay within my boundaries. It feels strange ,but good. I feel guilty and bad  not to be jumping in to fix like I had to do with my M .It is healthy not to fight with a scorpion who will always be a scorpion.
 I am realizing that some people will never change. *I* am the  one who is in error for wanting or expecting it.
 It is a freedom.               xxooo  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

BonesMS

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Re: Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?
« Reply #1034 on: November 08, 2009, 09:33:27 AM »
((((Bones)))  Sounds like you dealt with little miss N okay.  When you noticed she was likely an N - did you say to yourself "sh**" or "no problem, I can handle her" or somewhere in between? I'm curious.

Talk about violating boundaries - on wednesday, I had a job interview. After that, I went to meet my brother, who I'd spoken to about having a "we are adults - we have boundaries" type discussion with NM. She's been causing havoc for both of us lately. My brother discovered 10 years ago  in his first divorce that our Mother was BPD and was likely the reason he picked his first wife. He is going through T again, as he and his second wife have taken some time apart to work things out.  He told me about this BPD discovery a couple of months ago and we seemed to have shared some information that has made me feel closer to him.  

Anyway, so we met and it was an awful experience. He has become so one-sided about his version of the events and thinks his T process is giving him all the answers, including telling me what my problems are. But he was way off base. He berated me about my choices, the words I use (trying a semantic game play on walls vs. defenses vs. boundaries). I discovered that he really was not listening. Also, he threw out some BS about "choices" like I could sell my car or take a job at Starbucks, rather than the choice I did make, which was to ask my NM for some assistance until I get another job. ( I got laid off in dec 07, went thought 23k savings in 08, 09, had no debt and paid off my car) I've been very financially responsible. If you can pay off your car on unemployment and have 23 k saved - thats not too bad. He told me he has to move in dec and he doesnt even have moving expenses and first/last, so he's the last person to be lecturing me about $$$.)  Going to her was dreadful and my last resort, but I dont regret it.  

At one point, I was in his car and he kept going on and I was feeling abused. I was getting hot and faint at the same time. When he got to the corner I said" I have to get out of this car". I jumped out and walked the 12 or so blocks to my car. He never turned back ,never called to ask what happened or if I was OK.  It was really awful. I felt violated as thought I trusted him with important information and he violated that trust by not being understanding and choosing to lecture me (and trust me, he has a lot of his own problems)

When I got back to my car, I called my T and went in on Friday for a session. He told me that my Brother was likely projecting his stuff, including the crap about choices, into me and it was about HIM not ME. I agreed, but what gets me the most is that he is now making assumptions about me based on misinformation that he might use to make conclusions, only to find they will be wrong in the future.  Additionally, my Brother didn't think I should take the job, because it means that I will be in very close proximity to Nm for a couple of months.  Ugh. I know this exchange will backfire someday.   My T really helped me this time -he said it was nothing to worry about - I felt it needed to be addressed by email as in "I got out of the car because I felt.......and you violated my boundaries because...... and we cant talk if you are not interested in listening because....."  T seems to think it was nothing to worry about since I cant control how he thinks, true, but I think I need to say "this hurt, I don't appreciate it".  I'm still thinking about this.

Needless to say, Brother and I never got to discuss the part about the boundaries with NM - so nothing was accomplished. We (me and brother) have still not spoken about the "I have to get out of this car" incident.

There are verbal boundaries and he really managed to cross mine this time. I wont allow it in the future. Its a violation of trust to discuss something or relevance to us BOTH and have him dominate this way.

I'd apprecaite your feedback.


Thanks, ((((((((Ales2))))))))))!

When I sensed that little Missy was most likely an N, my reaction was, at first, somewhere in-between.  However, when she kept cutting me off, cutting me off, cutting me off...repeatedly, that's when I thought, "SH*T!" and then snapped off at her!  I had previously tried to say an assertive comment only to have her CUT ME OFF AGAIN and I no longer had any more patience for this kind of cr*p!

I don't blame you for wanting to make assertive statements to your brother.  Be prepared for the possibility that he may try to cut you off, in mid-sentence, and continue to project his cr*p onto you.  He may respond, vociferously, via e-mail, and attempt to continue to project his cr*p.  You may have to give consequences if he continues to attempt to violate your boundaries again.  It's up to you to decide what those consequences might be.

Bones
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 09:48:33 AM by BonesMS »
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