Choosen and Unchoosen

[alone48]

Lollie posted in a previous text about the "choosen" (spouse,BF) relationship with an N and the "unchoosen" (children,parents, siblings etc) and I have to say it put things in a different perspective. I came to this board mainly because of a relationship with an N/ supposed bf. After reading for quite sometime, I believe my father and ex were N's but not to the degree of N the bf. If you have been abused all of your life by a parent/sibling the pain certainly would be different than a love relationship that you chose and could have walked away from (another issue unto itself), so I am begining to undersand why my pain is different, this person will eventually fade from my life, but parents and siblings are pretty much a lifelong haul.

Though the pain of both hurts just as much, there are so many different dynamics in each relationshp. You all have wisely shared with me from your perspectives and it has helped, but understanding these two differences have clarified it for me.

[Ami]

Dear Alone,
  My M is an N. I married an N ish H. His F was a  N. I think that many people will find what you did, Alone, that if you have an N b/f, there are probably N's s/where in the past.Just a thought.              Ami

[reallyME]

My mother is image-conscious, but not to a point of lacking empathy.  she TAUGHT me empathy actually.
My step-dad who raised me was paranoid-schizophrenic/ocd, ocpd

I married an N, have a daughter who has N traits at times, but my worst experiences with N's and dysfunctional people who threatened to destroy me, were the people i met online in a chat forum.

My solution to any N problem has been and always will be, STAY AWAY FROM THEM...NO CONTACT.  I don't care what guilt they try to put on you, what promises they make you.  Stay away from them.  They are deadly.

Now, in cases of ACON, I realize that some of you still have the N's in your life.  My advice is still, if they are causing you personal pain and confusion, FLEE THEM if at all possible.  Relationships with N's even when you are an adult-child of one and especially then, are not for the person who has not yet individuated completely, cannot stand on his/her own, cannot speak up for his/her self and cannot walk away from it still being secure in who YOU are.

my view,
~Laura

[Bella_French]

I really appreciate the differentiation between chosen and unchosen (Thanks Lollie and alone!)

For me they became intertwined in the sense that eventually I chose a  partner who was just like my N-mother. He was SO much like her, from the surface charm, good looks, popularity and generosity, to the deeper cruelty, rage attacks, impossible-to-please attitude, the cheating, and controlling nature behind closed doors. .

But the chemistry was probably what got me hooked, and kept me hooked. It was something so deep for me it couldn't be defined or explained to concerned friends. I suppose it boiled down to the fact that I had been groomed for that relationship since birth by my mother, and it `felt so right'. Lol.

Towards the end of my struggle out of that situation, it twigged with me, that it was so hard to reject someone who so closely resembled my mother. I had unwillingly, then willingly,  spent my whole life loving her and supporting her in ways I didn't always see. Her expectations of me defined my feelings about myself, and even when I rebelled, I was rebelling against being like her.

There was no easy way out of the relationship without dismantling my very fabric as a person. In actual fact, I wasn't able to succeed. The relationship ending was prolonged, messy, and dreadful. I used my head enough to go into self preservation mode, but it was in spite of my feelings..

I am very guarded around my mother, and avoid giving her power over me. I suppose my weakness is that I beleive in respecting one's parents, no matter who they are. I couldn't cut contact with her without a very good reason, such as overt abuse. I choose distance and diplomacy instead, because this prevents her behaviour from escalating into overt abuse.

i'm realy looking forward to hearing other experiences. It is a topic dear to my heart. Thanks ALone!

X bella






 





 

[Leah]

Lollie posted in a previous text about the "choosen" (spouse,BF) relationship with an N and the "unchoosen" (children,parents, siblings etc) and I have to say it put things in a different perspective

Thank you very much, for this thread topic, Lollie and Alone,

I read your posting, Lollie, with great interest.


Unchosen : relates to my parents and sibling

Chosen:  relates to my now exNH and also, I have come to realize during the last year, someone who chose me out as a friend.


During my enlightenment and learning process, I realized and accepted, with startling awareness, just how my exNH had chosen me.

Especially, with reference to how he befriended my mother, from the very beginning of our 'courtship'

Upon reflection, working with the Unchosen and the Chosen aspect, in unison, to a certain extent, has been extremely helpful, and enlightening.

Love, Leah

[sunblue]

A while back, I had a relatively short, though completely devastating (financial, emotional, physical, psychological) relationship with an N guy.  I discovered much later on about NPD and have realized that I come from an N family (Nmom and Nsis; co-dependent dad).  In discussing the N relationship with a therapist once, he told me that I would never have become involved with an N if I wasn't used to that kind of behavior from being raised in an N family.  He said that Ns tend to choose their victims in relationships and that normal, healthy individuals who didn't grow up in that environment would run, not walk away from an N relationship.  It's not a conscious thing.  It's just that when you were raised by an N, that kind of interpersonal interaction is all you know so when an N walks into your life, it doesn't seem strange.  It's what you know.  To those not raised in N families, behavior exhibited by Ns in relationships would be very strange indeed, and totally unacceptable.

In other words, one of the key reasons you "choose" an N or allow yourself to be "chosen" by an N in a personal relationship is precisely BECAUSE of your "unchosen" N family.

Just FYI.

[Leah]

A while back, I had a relatively short, though completely devastating (financial, emotional, physical, psychological) relationship with an N guy.  I discovered much later on about NPD and have realized that I come from an N family (Nmom and Nsis; co-dependent dad).  In discussing the N relationship with a therapist once, he told me that I would never have become involved with an N if I wasn't used to that kind of behavior from being raised in an N family.  He said that Ns tend to choose their victims in relationships and that normal, healthy individuals who didn't grow up in that environment would run, not walk away from an N relationship.  It's not a conscious thing.  It's just that when you were raised by an N, that kind of interpersonal interaction is all you know so when an N walks into your life, it doesn't seem strange.  It's what you know.  To those not raised in N families, behavior exhibited by Ns in relationships would be very strange indeed, and totally unacceptable.

In other words, one of the key reasons you "choose" an N or allow yourself to be "chosen" by an N in a personal relationship is precisely BECAUSE of your "unchosen" N family.

Just FYI.

Dear Sunblue,

Thank you for sharing with such clarity, you have explained it perfectly.

The therapist you mentioned was seemingly in tune with N's.

As an unchosen whose first boyfriend clearly chose me, the realization of which, ceased the continual beating up of myself over getting married to him, at a young age, and not understanding the 'why' and 'what' of all endured during my long marriage.

So glad to know that your relationship with the N guy was short, though nonetheless, it must surely have been devastating for you, with much Nworkings impacted into a short period of time.



Dear Lollie,

Isn't it weird that as hard as we try, we still end up finding the one partner who will challenge us the most?

Yes, it most certainly is weird, and, for my future, a concern that I don't meet someone who is a challenge, which is why, I am not keen on dating, despite having reached enlightenment and being reasonably equipped and informed.

Daunting prospect!    

To be honest, I have been wondering lately, as to whether I want the hard work of building a relationship with someone new.  Simply because relationships require just that, working at, together, hopefully, in a healthy reciprocal way.



Sincere good wishes to you both,

Love, Leah

[sunblue]

Hi Leahs:

Thanks for your comment.  Yes, my relationship was "relatively" short but it was truly devastating.  He was not only NPD, but also a psychopath (clinically) and severely bipolar.  He turned out to be a criminal who was wanted in a number of of states.  He had hurt many, many women.  He bankrupted me, hurt me physically, threatened my life and those of my family and devastated me completely.  So Ns can cause so much damage.  I felt a lot of shame.  A lot.  Still do.  But now, after understanding NPD and my family N origins, I understand better how it could have happened.

The damage incurred by Ns knows no bounds....but I am glad you are out of your N relationship. Remember, not everyone in this world is N...it just seems like it to us ....

Hope you can get out there and meet one of the nice ones.

[Leah]

Hi Leahs:

Thanks for your comment.  Yes, my relationship was "relatively" short but it was truly devastating.  He was not only NPD, but also a psychopath (clinically) and severely bipolar.  He turned out to be a criminal who was wanted in a number of of states.  He had hurt many, many women.  He bankrupted me, hurt me physically, threatened my life and those of my family and devastated me completely.  So Ns can cause so much damage.  I felt a lot of shame.  A lot.  Still do.  But now, after understanding NPD and my family N origins, I understand better how it could have happened.

The damage incurred by Ns knows no bounds....but I am glad you are out of your N relationship. Remember, not everyone in this world is N...it just seems like it to us ....

Hope you can get out there and meet one of the nice ones.

Oh my goodness, Sunblue,

I am so very glad you are out of his reach now, Sunblue, truly I am, he sounds monstrous, not a kind thing to say, but true, by his actions.

Yes, I agree, that the damage incurred is always far reaching.

You are quite right, there are some nice ones out there, as I do see some nice ones interacting with their loved ones, and, it breathes hope of humankind into my heart.

Thoughts of stepping out in that direction is still a little daunting though.  I would like someone to be a really good friend, first and foremost, who enjoys the same things as I do, and better still, has more interests besides, that I may enjoy also.  Conversation;  Communication Skills with Listening is firmly placed on the top of my 'wish list'   

Many thanks,

Love, Leah

[Ami]

RM, you said:
Now, in cases of ACON, I realize that some of you still have the N's in your life.  My advice is still, if they are causing you personal pain and confusion, FLEE THEM if at all possible.  Relationships with N's even when you are an adult-child of one and especially then, are not for the person who has not yet individuated completely, cannot stand on his/her own, cannot speak up for his/her self and cannot walk away from it still being secure in who YOU are.

Can you see the double-bind of this situation? Being able to individute (separate from the relationship with you parents), stand on your own (I take this to mean psychologically, not financially), and speak up for yourself are the very things that an N parent grooms you NOT to do. You are treated, from birth, not a a separate human being with needs, wants, and feelings of your own, but as an extension (an "It") of the N parent. You are taught to be your parent's audience, mirror, and in some cases your parent's parent. In many cases, your very survival as a child depended on doing these things for your N parent. It is extremely difficult to see hwhat is happening because it's in the very air you have breathed since the day you were born. If you're lucky, you may be able to see this and break the spell before you get into a love relationship with someone with a PD. Some people break the bond only when stheir ympoms of anxiety and depression become so intolerable that they seek treatment for that. If they are lucky, and their T knows something about what it's like to live with a PD'd person, they will hopefully take steps to individuate and find their voice.
 

Dear Lollie,
  You have said such profound things ,here.I should take your post(above) and use it as a map to separate from my N M. It is brilliant,Lollie-----A plus. I am waiting for more wisdom.     Love   Ami

[reallyME]

Lollie,

I am so sorry for deleting your post along with my original thread.  I guess maybe I should have copy/pasted your post before deleting the whole thing.  I didn't think about it at the time.  Please forgive me, as you have a lot of really neat info here to share.

yes, I sure do understand the plight of the narcissistically abused child and even the borderline ones.  My heart goes out to those children and to the adult-children.  My issue of frustration comes when I see adults in their 40's, 50's, 60's still living in those childish defense mechanisms, because they wouldn't go get help for it or take medicine that can help them think slower and clearer.

Someone asked in a different post, if I get upset because it makes ME uncomfortable.  i'm going to be honest with you, YES, ExACTLY.  It is very uncomfortable seeing someone old enough to be my grandmother, behaviing like a 4 year old in their reactions, or having someone watch every move I make and commenting about it all day long, because they are so insecure that they are afraid of what will happen next.  It's frustrating seeing women who look and behave like the opposite sex because their parents wanted a boy/girl, to a point that the person has no clue how to be what they actually are gender-wise.

I'm not trying to be cruel here to anyone who is suffering in this way.  I'm trying to be real as the person who is on the other end of it at times...the "counselor" if you will (or even if you won't). iI am not alone.  I have spoken with people who know these people that did not get the help.  It makes them uncomfortable to be around them too.

  I do feel it should be mandatory that people who were abused, get into some form of counseling and not be allowed to tell people "i don't need it.  I'm fine on my own." Too many have slipped through the cracks over the years.  That makes me sound a bit dictatorial and maybe i am, but honestly, in this society there is no reason for an adult person to have to continue to struggle through life as a child in an adult's body, any more than there is an excuse for illiteracy in the USA.

As much as that child was once victimized and turned into a borderline personality or whatever, when they are older and befriend people and those people are subjected to all their strange, upsetting, flip floppy reactions, it's also not fair to those people either.  That the once-victimized now becomes your victimizing friend, boyfriend, husband, wife, etc, doesn't make it any less abuse toward you either.

It's kind of like "hey, your drug-addicted son RAPED my daughter." I can FEEL your pain at having a son struggling on drugs, but once it touches ME or my children, then it's a bit harder to see you or him as a victim anymore.  "Go get help or something," is how I feel at that point.

I've BEEN in a relationship with both a bpd and N.  What was done to me because these women didn't fully recover from their abuse, was also abuse.  Because I bring it up every now and then, does not mean I didn't forgive it.  I did forgive.  That does not mean that it was ok because they were abused as children, for them to abuse me.  It also doesn't mean that I didn't want to go and SHAKE the tar out of their abusive, neglectful so-called parents either, because their abuse of their child, then was perpetrated on me.

I guess i see people that are still in contact with extreme abusers, as not using wisdom, depending on the situation.  I am a HUGE Detatchment fan, if not N/C.

WHy would the Boy Called IT even WANT a relationship with his "mother" after what she did to him, especially once he KNEW it was EVIL and cRUEL?  I'm a logical person and it does not make logical sense to me.

~Just some rather harsh, passionate, angry thoughts here.  I admit it, I'm weary of all the ones slipping through the cracks and crawling out of them to go and abuse others because their own issues weren't handled rightly.  I feel mad about it.

~Laura

[CB123]

  I do feel it should be mandatory that people who were abused, get into some form of counseling and not be allowed to tell people "i don't need it. 

Laura,

How would you flesh this out?  When you say it should be mandatory, or that it should not be allowed--what would that look like in real life? 

CB

[Lupita]

IT has been less difficult for me to leave boyfriend or husband, etc. My mother, it is becoming almost impossible. I try not minimize my contacts with her and i feel so bad and so guilty, that feel tha everything that happens to me it is a punishment of god for trying to neglect my mother.
Leaving parents is almost impossible.

[Ami]

Dear Lupita,
  I am gradually leaving my M. I read that the worse the parent is, the harder it is to leave. It doesn't make logical sense, but does make emotional sense, in a way.
  I think that for us, we have to find some deep type of love in order to heal, from a person or God. Love is the only power that can break the bond of the type of M you had ,Lupita(IMO)        Ami

[alone48]

Lupita,

I would agree and that's why I said the difference with choosen or unchoosen needs to be identified. Though I don't feel that I chose N, I definetly could have RUN the other way and avoided alot of pain. Of course that is the clencher too, they have you before you realize they are N's and it's easy to say you could have left, but most people here know that's not the same as if we had healthy relationships to draw from.Not a choice with parents, siblings, etc. I believe my family life contributed to my being attracted to the N and possibly sending the vibes he needed to pick me, but thre is no one in my life that I can even like or come close to this N. All the rest was just the warm up exercise.