Been thinking about Father's Day

[Dawning]

Hello everyone.  It has been awhile.  I went to the USA for a week to reunite with some friends and I came back and was riding a great high from the companionship I felt there.  My excitement stayed with me here and I found myself very social for a brief period of time.  Now I have gone back into self-doubt mode on account of my experiences with a man.  A man...which brings up Father's Day.  

Many of you know the experiences I have had with my mother.  She is still the same.  I just ignore her now and place all her emails in a separate folder.  I take everything she says with a grain of salt.  Everything.  She will likely do something horrendous in the future and I'll be left with that feeling of being the only one who sees her craziness but it is such a comfort to know I can post here.  

My father is another story.  He is something like this: if I said, "well, Dad, I am in the hospital with multiple fractures and the doctor doesn't know if I will walk again" the response I imagine getting would be, "well, I'm sure you will be fine.  Just remember to be nice to everyone.  Wife (not my mother) and I are going to play golf now and tee-time is at 2 so gotta go.  Have a good day."  I see that now.  I see how deluded he is...that he thinks he was a responsible parent when nothing could be further from the truth.  He left me with my mother when I was 4.  And didn't want to have anything to do with me.  Now that he is getting older, he must have felt compelled to email me before his death to feel better about himself.  I can't see it any other way.  He will talk at length about himself making no mention of anything I said in my emails unless he perceives it as a threat.  I honestly have no energy for this so I stepped back to evaluate what I wanted.  What I want - and it is that old letter writing thing again - is to write both of my parents a letter telling them that it stuns me how even though they were so obviously irreponsible, abusive and neglectful that they refuse - even now - to take one bit of responsibility and are still trying to *use* me in some way.

Bunny, CG, Learn, Michelle, MrT, Nic, Portia, Singer,  TokyoJim, Wildflower, and ALL of you newbies and those I forgot to mention - looking forward to getting caught up on the posts.  And getting back into things.  I have gotten myself into a terrible mess in my head now and really need a few girlfriends to chat with here and go out with but there are none around me.  Thanks for listening.  One other thing: I am making a plan to go to Hawaii for the summer and check out living arrangements there.

Hmmm....I just realized that the sense of loss I have for my father is the tell-tale sign in every relationship I have with a man.  I have programmed myself - or been programmed - to believe that they all go away.  And they do.  And so the loss goes on.  And it gets worse and worse the older I get.  And the emotional unavailability of the men I attract is just like my mother and father.  Funny, that might explain why I have stayed in this space so long; that being the emotional unavailability of many I meet and want as friends.  I think I have gotten out of the cycle of thinking I am fundamentally flawed or wrong but rejection is hard to take.  It hits me like a ton of bricks and paralyzes me.  

Thanks for letting me ramble.  What do I want?  I want a friend and a lover in the same person.  Is that asking for too much?  I am starting to feel deeply the hard-core trust issues I have with men and I do it so dam* well - attracting untrustworthy men and then getting obsessed over what I did wrong.  Would writing my father help me break this cycle?  I wonder....

[Anonymous]

Dawning -

I'm so happy your back.  I've missed you terribly!!!!!     I got warm fuzzies and a "celebration" feeling when I saw that you had posted.  Came straight here!

I am sorry that you are feeling so sad though - especially after such a great trip with friends (good for you!).  Your father sounds like a very uncaring person.  He must be totally self-absorbed to not see what a caring, compassionate, kind-hearted daughter he has in you.  I think you hit the nail on the head though - I have heard from so many people (therapists, educators, etc) that our father (first male in our life) has EVERYTHING to do with how we view, interact with, see other males later in our life.  Are you still going to therapy?  I bet they would have great insight on that issue and also exercises for healing yourself from your father's damage.  Or maybe Bunny will read this and have some insight....she always has great advice and insight.  I'm sorry that I don't have any on that subject.  

I don't think that it is too much to ask to want a friend and lover in the same person.  It seems like a basic necessity to me - having a partner who is a friend and a lover.  I also think that writing the letter would be greatly healing and as always, if you want our comments, post it here.  

I am so glad your back Dawning!  What a dear friend you are and I am senging you big big hugs and healing thoughts.

Missed you lots!

Michelle

[Dawning]

Thanks Michelle.  Nice to know you care.  My voice is wavering but I think it is because of lack of sleep and proper nutrition these days.  I will write on this thread again in the next coming days because my head is not clear right now.  I really appreciate your concern.  I am going through alot of internal stuff right now as are we all.  First thing is to get balanced and then find my voice and intuition.  Luckily, I don't think they are too far down there this time and should be easy to retrieve.  Your message is a great support.    

<<<Big Hug>>>

[Jaded911]

 What do I want?  I want a friend and a lover in the same person.  Is that asking for too much?  I am starting to feel deeply the hard-core trust issues I have with men and I do it so dam* well - attracting untrustworthy men and then getting obsessed over what I did wrong.  Would writing my father help me break this cycle?  I wonder....

Hi dawning,

Offering someone your love in a relationship is a very hard thing to do.  I came to realize that it is just like giving someone a gift.  You have that gift all wrapped up beautifal.  You give them that gift, they tear it open, look at you and say "Yek"!  You were so excited to offer them the gift and you sit with anticipation as they open it to see what is in the package.  They said "YEK" and your anticipation suddenly turns into rejection.

You offer yourself in a relationship and if that person happens to walk away from the relationship, it suddenly becomes a matter of our short comings.  I guess anyone in their right mind would begin to sabotage their relationships just to protect their own emotions.  Kind of like "I am going to shove him away first so I wont get to attached to him and then he walk away from me."   I have done this.  I came to think that when I love someone I am giving them the ability to emotionally destroy me.  When I finally learned to also give myself the ability to trust that this individual wouldnt do so was when I finally began to offer that beautifully wrapped gift with a very neatly placed bow on it.  The package was complete when I realized that in order to receive love in a relationship I had to offer and I had to also be receptive to love.

I am not saying that when a relationship ends that I am not saddened or upset.  I rationalize what happend and what went wrong.  But I can also  honestly say that I no longer think to myself "what did I do wrong, what didnt I have that they needed, why cant anyone love me am I unloveable, and what I did to sabotage this one."  I just try to be grounded about all of the events that surrounded the breakup, not just what I did to cause the breakup.

Vulnerable is the best and foremost word that pops into my mind when I think of loving someone.  You are saying to them, hey here I am, whatcha think of me?  If they stick around then theyre saying, hey I gotcha babe and holy chit what a catch.  If they run for the hills then that signals hey, gotcha babe and um, you aint such a great find..im so outta here.  Well, lol, took me a few yrs to get it in my head that perhaps it was their malfunctions and not mine that made them move on.

Now I know it is healthy to throw this fish back into the sea and just wait for a nice, handsome fisherman to come along and reel me in.  Oh did I mention I want him to be a very understandable person.  I require that he give 50% and he receive 50%.  Going dutch in a relationship leaves noone feeling like they spent a fortune emotionally on the other person.  It leaves everyone feeling they giveth and they taketh and are grateful to have had the experience.  I have remained friends with quite a few of my ex boyfriends.  Hell I even fixed one up with a co-worker, lol.  That was the best thing I could have ever done.  They fit together like a tailored glove on a hand.  He and I fit together great but as friends not as life long partners.  

Feeling vulnerable is such a helpless feeling.  Feeling rejected is such a worthless feeling.  No wonder at times we choose to take the safe way out.  Reject before being rejected.  It saves us alot of emotional turmoil.

[Jaded911]

Hiya Dawning, you know I'm with you. And your thread here has got me hooked, so may I ask Jaded a question while you recuperate? Thank you

Jaded, I'm enjoying all your posts. I have a question about when you said:

He and I fit together great but as friends not as life long partners

and this might sound dumb but I am serious and want to know what you think: how do you know? Why isn't a friend a life-long partner? I bet I'm not the only one who'd love to hear your view, coz you sound so down to earth and like you've lived. And I feel I haven't lived, not really. Did you find your life-long partner or are you happy still looking? Hope I'm not being too inquisitive, don't mean to be...thank you, P

Hi Portia,

Ty for the kind words.  You are not sounding dumb by asking the question that you did.  Let me see if I can explain it in a way that makes sense to me, lol.  The man I was refering to is a wonderful man, heck he is a wonderful person.  I love him dearly but it just wasn't there for me romantically.  He made me laugh, he made me smile, he treated me like a lady deserves to be treated, and we have a bond that can never be broken.  We have known each other for probably 7 yrs.  We began to date and we had alot of fun together but I just had no romantic feelings for him.  He is very handsome, inteligent, and funny as all get out but I felt like I was kissing my brother, ew, thats a gross thought, lol.  

I was very open with him and told him I loved him dearly as a friend but I just didnt feel that he and I could be any closer in a couple relationship.  I also told him that I did not want to harm our friendship nor did I want to hold him up from finding a wonderful woman who was waiting for her dreams to come true.  He is a very lovely person and he deserved all that a woman has to give.  I could not lie to him while I tried to force romantic feelings towards him.  He understood and we never looked back.

I know he will be a life long partner to me, but only on a friendship level.  As far as a lover or a mate, nah, I just felt or should I say did not feel those feelings for him.  You know, I knew I made the right decision when I fixed him up with my coworker.  Never one time did I feel jealous or hurt when I seen them together.  All I felt was happiness for the both of them.  He was what she had been hoping for and dreaming about for a very long time.  He is a wonderful man and I get joy out of knowing that I played a part in their happiness.  

You also asked me if I had found my life long partner.  That is a very simple question you asked Portia with a very complicated answer.  I have a very unique situation here and to be honest with you, I can't answer that question for you because I dont know that answer.  One day I will share my experience so that I can receive some feedback or comments.

Right now there are alot of milestones I must pass before I am ready to share with anyone.  I am not a perfect person or an unrealistic person.  I am a person who speaks my feelings and I speak them with the truth and without the intention of hurting anyone.

You dont fret about being out of line asking those questions.  There was not one intrusive thought in my mind when you asked.  As far as your comment about me living, oh I have lived but most importantly Portia, I have learned from living.  I have made many a mistakes but I can also say this about myself.  The mistakes I have made, I blame nobody else for them.  I actually dont think of them as mistakes, I think of them as wrong choices.  Everyone has choices in their lives and at times I have made the wrong choices but I always, always pick my sorry ars up by the straps on my britches and I work to never forget the outcome of the poor choice I made so as to never repeat them.

I just feel that life is one big learning experience.  I will never know the answeres to all of my questions nor will I ever know the reasons for why things turn out the way they do.  But I just know that somehow, someway when you think that you can not make it through another day, sunset occurs and before you know it, lord and behold comes the sunrise.  You make it to the next day and then the next.

I waisted to many yrs trying to figure out how to read everyone and in what ways did they their needs need to be met.  

I am not always right in my life but all I ask of anyone is that if they feel I am wrong, please show me how I am, share with me in a civilized, decent, educational manner how it is that my way of thought wrong.  
Im open, honest, and very very wise to the world and some of the wicked people who live in it.  There is nothing worse then playing a game without any rules to follow.  So when people begin to play games with me and they havent laid out the ground rules to their games, um I pack up my gear and get the hell out of dodge.  Ive been there done that and aint gonna play those games again.

Portia, what good is life if you dont live it?  Live your life the way you desire life to be.  Whether it be love or goals or just as simple as what you want to eat for dinner.  Do what your voice inside of you wants to do or you will be a slave to someone for the rest of your life.  I want to slave to reach my OWN goals and desires as well as for those who are in my life.  I give without expecting much back but when someone crosses me more then a couple of times, pfft, I know when its time to call it quits.  I look out for those I love but most importantly, I began to look out for my own well being too.

You have wonderful posts too I might add Portia.  Everyone has so much to offer to everyone in their posts.  I read them all and I know I am horrible about replying but at times I just like to sit back and read the replies so I can continue to learn lifes ways.

[Anonymous]

Dawning,

Your father sounds seriously self-absorbed. Writing him would only get you more of the same treatment. If you're in therapy, you can work on your father issues there. Your actual father can't help you. He's far too limited. When you can emotionally separate your father from other men, you can attract a decent man. Probably you want someone responsible, reliable, honorable, warm, generous, etc. Don't settle for anything less. What happens is we try to recreate our childhood drama with an adult self-absorbed man, hoping this time we'll win the drama. But  it's best to abstain from these repetitions. Sometimes it takes outside help to do it.

bunny

[mighty mouse]

Hi All,

Just wanted to weigh in on this love issue. I thought I would never find my wonderful H (married now 13 years). But I have a different technique which may not work for some, but maybe will for others.

That is I choose with my head. Unlike many, I have to satisfy my head first and then my heart follows. I have felt passion with many, but I do not trust it. My best relationships have always been with the head first. Now I know that is anathema for many, but when I am physically attracted, I never make a good choice.

My attraction for my husband grows everyday. And he was willing to be vulerable (in a smart way) and didn't invest in me too much until he was sure of his intentions and then flat out asked if I loved him. I didn't know I did until HE was willing to ask. But I had had enough time to see him in action...his thoughtfulness, his eveness (very important for me growing up in an unpredictible N house), his honesty, his caring, his patience (Lord knows I needed that), his moral compass, and his calm.

I am tearing up writing about this wonderful man. He is so precious to me. I didn't think he was particularly good looking at first and now his face is the cutest, handsomest face I know (that doens't mean I can't appreciate the good looks of the carpenters on all those home improvement shows LOL).

But my love for him has grown exponentially over the days and years. It's hard to beleive I can love him more each day.

Sorry to go on so long and good luck to any and all pursuing love.

MM

[Anonymous]

I'm writing this in the 2nd person for some reason.  Sounds right...helps me to generalize and remove myself from the situation to see more objectively.  

You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us.  After that, you communicate a bit via email and text messaging and then it stops.  You ask him in an email if you want to hang out and that is when he stops replying.  You meet his friend who lives in your building and friend says could be that he is freaked out by the age difference - you're older than him by more than 10 years.  Maybe he doesn't want to tell me that because he doesn't want to hurt me.  But all I have to go on are maybes.  People say things like "it is not worth it to get hung up" and I am but not on him.  I just can't handle the not knowing cause that is what I got from my parents all my life.  And I don't want to feel about this person the way I feel about my father.  Has anybody else gotten the silent treatment from men after sex?  This has never happened to me before.  I swear this voice I have now sounds so adolescent.    But ever since I became sexually active, I never had a problem with the guy wanting to see me afterwards.  In fact, they became my boyfriends.  Maybe I should analyze why we broke up.  It seems so long ago and then I came to live here with a man and we broke up and he left.  And I stayed.  Had two boyfriends since then.  One is my on again/off again but cultural issues leave me feeling unfulfilled.  

As for the silent treatment, I feel like I am pushing him for a response (and I don't like to think of myself as a pushy person but maybe I am in these cases.   .  Any response would be better than silence.  His silence is making my brain overthink and twist in on itself.  But that is my problem and  I feel old/middle-aged for the first time when I know better than to get hung up on THAT.  Complete waste of time.  

Any comments from the men on the board too?

Yeah, Bunny and Michelle - therapy sounds great with the right therapist but after 4 years with the same woman and feeling like her speed was SO slow -and she wasn't analytical enough - I kind of overdid it on therapy and it started seeming like a waste of time and she listened but hardly said a thing so I felt pretty unfulfilled once I was ready to start tapping into uncharted territory.  I spoke with her about this but she just listened to that too and didn't say a word...just stared at me.  

Thanks to everyone.

[Dawning]

That was me, Dawning, in the post above.  

[Jaded]

Dawning,

I hope I don't offend anyone when I share my feelings on this.  I have been there done this myself dawning.  I have been on the receiving end of the silence and I have given a few cold shoulders in my time.  I just think that men and women see things from two different views.  You know the old men are venus women are from mars dealio.

I think women look at things more from an emotional side of things and men view things from...........well I am short on answers with that side of things, lol.  I just think that women get more emotionally wrapped up when they are intimate with a man and some men it takes time to emotionally mingle with a woman.

It is easy for me to sit here and tell you not to feel ashamed or embarrassed by the fact you slept with him.  It is not me that feels the ole "wham bam thank ya maam."  As I said before, been there done that.  But you have to also think of this from other angles.  Ok for example, maybe he just went through a horrible breakup and he had his emotions ran through the mill.  Maybe he is embarrassed by something or perhaps feels like he said or did not say something right.  

I can understand how you feel shunned or used.  You have every right to have the feelings that you do.  I would just try to also think of other reasons besides him rejecting you that could be causing his actions or should I say lack of actions.

I would love to also hear the mens point of views of this one.  Like I said, I am short on answers on that one.  Hell, if I knew all of the answers to the mens minds, I could make a fortune telling all you girly girls.  Dang, sometimes people are like big jigsaw puzzles.  You just have to throw all of the pieces out there and work to put them together.  It is a frustrating and confusing task at times but when its all pieced together it feels like such an accomplishment!!

[nassim]

You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us. After that, you communicate a bit via email and text messaging and then it stops.  

Sorry, I'm not sure who I am addressing, maybe all the women who wonder about men. Since you asked the questions, please don't run me off the board for giving you some insight into our little brains.

First of all men have a biological imperative to put as much sperm in as many places as possible (the younger the guy, the more this usually applies). That means we will lie to you to get sex, we will feign a great interest in you to get sex, we will go to great lengths to get sex. Now I am speaking generally. Obviously this isn't the case 100% of the time.

And I am always amazed that women fall for this. A relationship hasn't really been established and you are willing to have sex. Then you are looking for something more that we may not have to give at that time. But we aren't thinking about you or your feelings when we want the sex.

The great part is, you have all the control. You can say no. You can refuse to have sex until a relationship has been extablished. And if the guy doesn't stick around that long, he just wanted sex and will go to an easier place to get it. So if you just want sex..no strings..go ahead and do. And I won't insult you with all the potential downsides to having sex without committment. But you women do have all the control. And we are generally afraid of you emotionally.

Beleive me, men are quite simple creatures. My wife sometimes thinks I'm having very profound thoughts because my brow will be furrowed. I'm thinking about something electronic more than likely LOL. We do have emotions, but we don't usually just jump right in with them like women do. It would be better to be circumspect about who you let touch your precious bodies.

Now I will get off my soapbox and tell you that women are beautiful creatures and we should be in awe of you when a meaningful relationship exists.

I hope that wasn't too brutal.

Nassim

[Anonymous]

You meet a neighbor, you hang out a little, you share the same pub and then you inevitably have sex cause I felt a connection and it was there for both of us.

Unfortunately, this is a classic "one-night stand" situation. Most men in pubs will assume that you're lonely or bored. They also assume a mutual agreement that this is nothing but a brief encounter.

I think he is freaked out by your pursuit and interest in a relationship. He has no interest in that. As far as he's concerned, there was no commitment on his side. When you get silence from a man after a sexual encounter, there is no mystery to it. It means, "I'm not interested." The best thing to do is move on. Run like hell, in fact.

I think you may have to write this off as a learning experience and look for a decent therapist. The woman you describe sounds like she was way out of her depth and shouldn't even be in practice. I'm sorry you suffered through her incompetence. There are much better therapists out there. You have to keep searching until you find one. I found mine through my medical insurance.

bunny

[Anonymous]

nassim is right.

bunny

[Dawning]

I think he is freaked out by your pursuit and interest in a relationship. He has no interest in that. As far as he's concerned, there was no commitment on his side. When you get silence from a man after a sexual encounter, there is no mystery to it. It means, "I'm not interested." The best thing to do is move on. Run like hell, in fact.

This is good advice but it does not apply to my particular case completely.  He is younger than me.  I thought of him as a younger friend to hang out with...had no interest in sex until one day when I did find him sexually attractive after quite a few meetings - NOT at a bar.   We share the same pub which I go to once a week or once every two weeks or if there is a special event.  That is why I can't figure out why he would stop speaking to me...does sex change a friendship so much???  I am interested in being his friend...more than in having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship if I had to choose.  For my part, I should have told him how I felt instead of being so spontaneous.

please don’t value yourself through sex…you don’t do you? I did (until about 2 months ago probably).

Portia, nice question.  Actually, I value myself in my ability to have a common sense approach to sex.  I don't attach the morality to it that many people in western countries do but I do expect respect to come along with the act of sex and - if it doesn't - then to me that reflects more on the character of the person who is disrespecting than the person who wanted to have an honest encounter.

I guess the person in question is shallower than I thought.  I dunno.  It is starting to seem that way.  Don't really know on what basis he thinks he can practice esoteric insight meditation  at this rate but it WAS a learning experience.
 
Interesting reply by Naseem and something else to consider certainly.  But I guess I am in the minority here.  I want real and honest relationships with people without judgement and disrepect.  I can handle rejection - maybe the fact that I am in a culture that is alien to me - makes me feel more acutely about almost everything.   And I am more sensitive than many people.   But if I want something, I am not good at playing games to get it.  I know that about myself.  So I guess I may be single for a good while longer.  And that is okay.  I've obviously got major father issues to work out.  Mother is driving me crazy with her stupid comments too.  Grandmother was in the hospital recently and I get mom's rant about how grandmother can't expect "the hospital to be like the Waldorf Astoria" and why won't grandmother stop complaining.  Funny thing is: my mother is calling HER mother "grandmother."  How weird is that.  Just a little aside.
 
The main thing now is to forget a little about this encounter.  And learn from how I reacted.  As usual, I would not be able to get to where I am now without being able to have the frank exchange I have found here.  Will reply to the other posts in a little while.  Have to do some work now.

[sonia]

Dawning,

This sounds like an acquaintance..not a friendship. There's no mystery here as Bunny said. And since you didn't know him well and he was callous after sex, why do you want him as a friend anyway? It sounds like you didn't know him well enough to ascertain if he was friendship material. And you don't know him well enough to judge that he is a bad person either. He may attach some morality to sex even though he's being a cad. Why attach your sentiments of sex and then say he is shallow?

I don't think culture matters much. If there was a real true bond of friendship, these complications could be talked out.

I think as another poster said, chalk it up to experience and learn from it.

Sonia