Author Topic: Been thinking about Father's Day  (Read 11115 times)

Dawning

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2004, 11:13:24 PM »
Thanks for your reply, Sonia.  It was stated very gently.  And you put into words this....

Quote
If there was a real true bond of friendship, these complications could be talked out.


Which is a painful part to deal with.  That there is no bond of friendship where I thought there was.

Cultural frames of reference are different -there is no doubt about that - but he and I are come from a similar cultural background.  Maybe that has served as an eye-opener too even though I can't anlaytically figure it out at the moment.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

sonia

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2004, 11:46:22 PM »
Hi D,

Funny thing is, I wasn't trying to be gentle. You didn't quite take my meaning. Oh well.

BTW, I don't think the sex/morality equation is a Western value at all. It's a universal value. But I digress.

Sonia

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2004, 01:02:37 AM »
Sonia,

Although I didn't "take" your meaning as you intended...I appreciate your voice.  

What meaning did you intend?

We could certainly get into a lot of differing opinions about cultural/sex/morality issues but I think most of the people on this board want to be healed by letting their voices be heard.  And in using their voice to help others.

For me, I don't have any guilt feelings about practising safe sex as a single person.  I don't do it often but when I do I always feel a connection even when one might not exist.  These are personal issues of mine that likely have to do with the relationship - or complete lack of one - that I ever had with my father since the age of 4.  It is something I have to look into in a non-judgemental environment.

Finding a good therapist is not easy.  I am a little disappointed that after all the time I spent with mine, I ended up feeling talked-out or highly emotional when what I really wanted was to find the source of my pain that is/was keeping me stuck in certain areas.  Over time, when I would leave my therapist's space...I would feel exhausted and upset rather than with any insight.  She was helpful in certain areas though.  I still beat myself up alot but I have more confidence than before.

Dawning

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2004, 01:04:36 AM »
me above.  forgot to log in.  having a busy day. :roll:
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2004, 10:40:51 AM »
Quote from: Dawning
...I can't figure out why he would stop speaking to me...does sex change a friendship so much???  I am interested in being his friend...more than in having a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship if I had to choose.  For my part, I should have told him how I felt instead of being so spontaneous


Yes, once you have sex, it changes. After sex, the woman is instantly emotionally involved. The man is not necessarily emotionally involved. That is how men and women differ. No prior discussion with this man would have changed the outcome. You had sex with him, and that trumps any discussion.



Quote from: Dawning
Actually, I value myself in my ability to have a common sense approach to sex.  I don't attach the morality to it that many people in western countries do but I do expect respect to come along with the act of sex and - if it doesn't - then to me that reflects more on the character of the person who is disrespecting than the person who wanted to have an honest encounter.


I don't believe this is very practical. If you have sex with a man without a foundation for a future relationship, you are vulnerable to his quick rejection or dumping. Men will interpret your common sense approach to sex very differently from your interpretation. To them, common sense means casual with no strings attached.

I don't know what you mean by an honest encounter. Maybe you can clarify that.

bunny

October

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2004, 06:17:49 PM »
..

dharma

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2004, 05:38:21 PM »
Dawning,

In regard to esoteric meditative insight please see the following:


The third moral precept advises against all forms of sexual misconduct, which include rape, adultery, promiscuity, paraphilia, and sexual perversions. Actually, the Buddhist commentary emphasizes adultery more than anything else, but if we take into account the purpose and intention of the precept, it is clear that the precept is intended to cover all improper behavior with regard to sex. The broadest interpretation even purports to mean abstention from the misuse of the senses. The expression "misuse of the senses" is somewhat vague. It could refer to any morally unwholesome action committed under the influence of sensual desire or to the inability to control one's own senses. In any case there is no doubt that the third precept aims at promoting, among other things, proper sexual behavior and a sense of social decency in a human civilization where monogamy is commonly practiced and self-restraint is a cherished moral value.

For one reason or another, many young people in love are not able to enter into married life as early as they wish. While marriage is still some distance in the future, or even an uncertain quantity, these people enter into relationships, of which sex forms a significant part. This happens not only among adults, who must legally answer to their own conduct, but also among teenagers who are still immature, emotionally unstable, and tend to act in irresponsible ways. Peer pressure and altered moral values are an important contributing factor to the escalation of the problem. The trend toward extramarital sex has become so
common that it is now virtually taken for granted. Contubernal arrangements are becoming increasingly popular, and marriage is relegated to a place of insignificance, jeopardizing in the process the sanctity of family life.

In the context of these developments, the third precept becomes all the more relevant and meaningful. Unlike killing, which certain circumstances seem to warrant, there is hardly any plausible excuse for sexual promiscuity, except human weaknesses and inability to restrain the sexual urge. However, there is a distinction between sexual promiscuity and sexual relationship based on mutual trust and commitment, even if the latter were a relationship between two single adults. Thus one may begin to practice the third precept by resolving not to be involved in sexual activities without an earnest intention and serious commitment of both parties. This means that sex should not be consummated merely for the sake of sexuality, but should be performed with full understanding within the people involved and with mutual responsibility for its consequences. A certain level of maturity and emotional stability is necessary to ensure a healthy and productive sexual relationship between two partners. With the realization that there is a better and more noble path to follow than promiscuity, one may see the wisdom of self-restraint and the benefit of establishing a more lasting and meaningful relationship which, rather than impeding one's spiritual progress, may enhance it. Finally, if anything else fails to convince people of the danger and undesirability of sexual promiscuity, perhaps the phenomenal AIDS epidemic will. This may seem beside the point, since moral precepts and moral integrity are matters that concern inner strength, fortitude, and conscientious practice, not fear and trepidation based on extraneous factors. It is, nevertheless, worthwhile to consider the connection between promiscuous behavior and the AIDS epidemic and realize how strict observance of the third Buddhist moral precept could greatly reduce the risk of infection or spread of this deadly disease. Acceptance of this fact may also lead to an appreciation of the value of morality and moral precepts as laid down by the Buddha, consequently strengthening conviction in the Dharma practice.

Dharma

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2004, 07:06:27 PM »
Quote from: nassim


Beleive me, men are quite simple creatures. My wife sometimes thinks I'm having very profound thoughts because my brow will be furrowed. I'm thinking about something electronic more than likely LOL. We do have emotions, but we don't usually just jump right in with them like women do. It would be better to be circumspect about who you let touch your precious bodies.



I am sorry but I will have to disagree with you big time because by your standards I think I can't even be classified as a man then !

I am certainly not 'simple' compared to anyother woman and I personally see myself as a victim of such stereotyping. I am a man and I certainly have insecurities/feelings/call it whatever you want and I will tell you what ? I have refused sex to women because at that circumstance I felt emotions were not involved and I didnt feel comfortable. Does this mean I am not a man ?? It is such a shame that the 'control' or 'power' to say yes or no lies with women in general and we all ( men and women seem to be happy with it that way ) Why have many men demeaned themselves in this regard by losing in touch with their own body and sensuality and given up control on this dept to women ? No dont laugh.. I am serious !

Why is that when a woman has this control to refuse or to accept it is seen as something to do ith feelings but when a man does it, it is simply scorned or seen as an inability to 'share' ?? It is as if a woman's body and emotions are sacred and mens are not ! I certainly do treasure my body but hey.. society doesnt allow a man to do that does it ? It is such double standards that even lead me to question my sexuality etc at one point !

I know many people wont buy it but hey I consider myself a victim of such gender roles/norms etc I had to point it out

I can go on more on this subject but I got a feeling that it might get lost.. men are expected to have a 'sense of humour' and get going when it comes to these is it ?  :roll: but oh sorry.. I sometimes feel left out in this matter so I will stand up and shout . Thanks

as 'Spirit'ed ..as ever !

nassim

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2004, 08:32:55 PM »
Spirit,

I agree with you. I was pointing out to the posters that most men do NOT in fact think this way. I think taking the road you mentioned is truly better and much more meaningful.

And I liked Dharma's pointing out the moral aspect of sexual relations. It applies to both men and women. But I do think that women take the lead in the sexual realm because more often than not, they are the ones saying yay or nay.

And by and large, men will not do what women won't permit. They (women) are in large part the civilizing force of civilization.

Sorry if I disturbed you. I was trying to make clear the usual reality. And it is the usual reality even though it's not your reality.

I will say that men of an idealist temperment are much more "feeling" and I don't consider that they are not men. But most men are not the equivilent of women in terms of emotion. There are biological differences between men and women which can not be denied. And saying most men are simple doesn't imply being stupid at all. In fact in some ways I think men are more emotionally intelligent than women.

You were speaking specifically. I was speaking generally. But this is a forum for free discussion and that's a good thing.

Nassim

Dawning

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2004, 06:10:07 AM »
Quote
If you have sex with a man without a foundation for a future relationship, you are vulnerable to his quick rejection or dumping.


Sigh.  Yes.  Makes sense.  Wish someone would have told me this before now.   :cry:  

When I look back at the serious relationships I have had where there was talk of marriage, I see now that - even in those situations - I didn't believe that I was deserving of that type of relationship.  My parents did not love me so how could anyone else?  Sometimes I think the best thing to do would be to stay alone and suffer in silence.  I did that for a long time.  But then I feel that I am depriving my soul of what it needs which is healthy relationships.  I guess I don't know the way to go about having healthy relationships.  I am free, natural, truthful and non-judgemental when people believe differently than I and I think I deserve to be treated with respect.  Why would my own parents disrespect me?  I have always felt their disrespect.  For me, I think the best thing to do would be to make a change in my life towards a more healing, natural environment and be around people who respect and care for the feelings of others.

Saw the man in question over the weekend in a social situation.  He told me that I liked him more than he liked me.  But that he thought I was "very cool."  Funny thing is...he looks really good now; like he has his confidence back and I am full of self-doubt in social situations now where it is likely I will run into him.  And the tree that provided shade for me in my urban dwelling has been 50% hacked off so, yes, I do feel vulnerable and exposed.  And no one around here seems to want to care.  So I guess I care about myself and chalk it up to a learning experience.  I don't want this to ever, ever happen again.

Parents on this board...it might be good to tell your children, once they become sexually mature, about the dynamics of male/female encounters when sex comes up.  No one ever told me.  Let alone that I had any power to say *nay* to anything when I was young.  But if I wasn't attracted to someone, I wouldn't go near them.  It is when I sense a mental/spiritual connection that I jump in too quickly and certainly did this time.  I now doubt that he was seriously planning to join a monastery  :roll: He seems to have morphed into a stud and I feel like it all my fault.   :P   Excuse the sacasm but I feel there might be a grain of truth there and that angers me because this thought makes me feel that he got his power back at the expense of my weakness.   :oops:  :oops:  :oops: and  :x  :x  :x  How should I behave now when I see him?  I am really embarrassed and under-confident at the moment.  Must remind myself that I have it much more together than I probably realize.  No one is perfect, we all make mistakes and I am learning from this one.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2004, 01:23:59 PM »
Dawning,

I also had to learn about male-female interactions the hard way. My parents didn't talk about it. I don't think they knew anything anyway. This guy may feel studly right now but that won't last long.

How I would act around him: polite, pleasant, and I'd pay very little attention to him. I would appear busy and happy.

bunny

Dawning

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2004, 05:00:45 PM »
Hello everyone.  I just woke up again at the crack of dawn - been happening alot lately.  In trying to make sense of what has recently happened in my life... I think I am needy for the friendship of females and I don't have any where I live so I tried (without fully knowing) to substitute a younger guy- who told me he was thinking about being a monk -as a *girlfriend.*  Who knows what he was thinking and I will probably never know - just like with dad - but the sense of loss I feel for the friendship is just as acute as the sense of loss I feel at having given away my power to him.  The best thing I can do now is try and make some western girlfriends here with common interests (i'm in asia, btw.)  Maybe if I had that to begin with, I could have seen the way things were headed with me and this guy and could have felt less lonely and more secure - secure enough to talk with him about who I really am than just to be happy that I was having a good time with someone who didn't want to get down my pants at the first available opportunity.  But now the sex happened and there will never be any going back.  As a result, he feels empowered, I think, and I feel even more alone and vulnerable especially since he lives near me and so do his mates.

I want to say thank you to all who have posted thus far.  Bunny, you have been and continue to be a great help.  Your last post certainly made me feel less alone and the advice has been invaluable esp since I felt that you were not judging me for my weakness.  I will never be able to be one of the guys, that is a definite.  How can it be possible that, by being friends with a girlfriend-substitute - that I became one of the guys with his mates (much more macho than him...until now  :o ) until they found out that we had sex and now I feel disrespected by them.  It is bizarre but that is how it feels to me.  I want to write and tell him that it is not as simple as me "liking him more than he likes me.*  I really did think of him as I would a girlfriend - opening up and talking about things.  But he doesn't seem to feel a loss and I do :?:  :?:   And - funnily enough - this is pretty close to what I had with parents.  Dad completely unavailable at all levels and mom really chatty when she needed to chat and unavailable if she had other things to do.  Maybe I should take a class or go to a community center to study something.  It is sad, I feel like I have lost a friend and did I mention that the intimacy between us was real while it was there - briefly - but now that is gone too. :cry:  :cry:  I am coming to believe that he questioned his own sexuality.  And now he certainly doesn't.  But what I gave him was a gift  and he doesn't see it that way.  He got his self-validation.  Once you have sex with a man, there is never any going back.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2004, 06:06:52 PM »
Dawning,

Your insight that you substituted him for a female friend is very useful. Now you realize what you really need. I wouldn't write him about this insight, it is useless and he can't help you anyway. He still isn't a girlfriend.  

That "monk" line sounds really suspicious. I wonder if he's used it before to hook women. Seducing a monk is a pretty nifty fantasy, and he may have realized its potential (i.e., the woman would believe she is the "only one", and if she singlehandedly "turns him off" of celibacy, that makes her pretty powerful).

bunny

P.S. Thanks for your kind comments.

Anonymous

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2004, 08:23:02 PM »
Quote from: nassim

And by and large, men will not do what women won't permit. They (women) are in large part the civilizing force of civilization.

Sorry if I disturbed you. I was trying to make clear the usual reality. And it is the usual reality even though it's not your reality.


Hi Nassim,

Thanks for clarrifying. I will agree that we can all express out views here without being choked and I am glad that you understand. I will put on my intellectual cap on tonight.
But my point is I am not happy the way the majority of the world sees things. For example you call women the 'civilising force' and I am afraid thats how still many of us sees things. Men places woman on a pedestal and it becomes so common and over the time it becomes 'real'. I think such perceptions should change if at all men and women are going to SHARE the responsibility when it comes to feelings/sex etc. I think placing women in such pedestal actually makes women idolised and idealised while it relieves men from that responsibility. We have done it for centuries and isn't it time that we start deconstructing these ? Isnt that the direction we need to spend our energy and not the other way ?

Why don't men take a bit of responsibility and put themselves in a pedestal and treasure their body and their privates ? Wont that makes things more liek a platteau rather than having to 'climp up' that pedestal knock on the door to ask permission, and if given waved down to those who havent climbed ' hey you suckers.. look at me I have conquerred" etc It will give women a break aswell.. sex would be like a 'home' with a couple in it ( where everything.. the fun to the responsibilities  belongh to both ) rather than a host (female) and a guest (male).. sounds more like a B&B dosnt it ? How do we get there? by not re-enforse and idealise women as the safeguardians of emotions and feelings and the keyholders to sex.. but to deconstruct such ideas ?

Quote

I will say that men of an idealist temperment are much more "feeling" and I don't consider that they are not men. But most men are not the equivilent of women in terms of emotion. There are biological differences between men and women which can not be denied. And saying most men are simple doesn't imply being stupid at all. In fact in some ways I think men are more emotionally intelligent than women.


Well for me emotions are common. I come from a cultural background ( historically ) where it is easier to understand and see the soul as both male and female which in fact makes our soul a more neutral entity rather than distinguishing it on the basis of biological differences. Somehow I believe ( I am not sure if any one can prove it for sure either way ) that our present perception of 'feelings' being based on biological differences is more of a culturally constructed one. So fingers crossed thereaswell.

I will end my rant here but I wish we could have a decent debate on this.. because I find this topic interesting.

Spirit

nassim

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Been thinking about Father's Day
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2004, 08:54:51 PM »
Spirit,

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you are saying and what you are debating. I look at things in a very general way because that's my personality style....instead of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I can't see the trees for the forest. And you are talking about your specific world view and I'm talking about a general view.

In short, I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. I'm not trying to be dense. But I don't quite take your point and how it is germain to the problem of the poster on this thread. She obviously was a one night stand and was treated poorly by a young man with ill intentions or no intentions.
Unfortunately, this is an all too common occurance and women get hurt in the process.

BTW I have always been too shy to be a cad. My wife and I are equal in all things.....sexually, spiritually. I don't thinks there's any other way to be.
But the reality is that men (especially young men) have a biological imperative to have a lot of sex. I don't think that's a construct. It's what keeps the species going.

More men would be on this board if there was absolutely NO difference between the male and female psyche. Just an example of course.

Nassim