When we are voiceless, who are we really?

[seeker]

Hi everyone,

what a powerful thread!  A few random thoughts to toss in:

1. Can someone define "depersonalization" for me?  Is that kind of like turning into cottage cheese around other people and taking on their preferences for flavor?  I think I may do this, but want to know if I'm on the same page as to definition of this concept.

2. Only Me: I'm glad to read also that your H is witness to your reality.  Thank goodness your mom can't gaslight him.  There are so many Ns out there with major JEALOUSY that think if I can't have it (e.g. good happy marriage) then you can't either.  They love to knock over sandcastles because they can't build their own.

3. I think we non-Ns suffer a great deal from approval seeking.  This is a major control lever for Ns.  What will people think?  

Just today I took on the role of my NSIL with my daughter (we were roleplaying, not headtripping   ).  I used favorite phrases like "aren't I wonderful for adopting this child?  Don't you support my decision?  Then why won't you be the nanny while I go off and do whatever?"  "Don't you like adopted children?"  "Aren't families supposed to be there for each other?"  "You must be selfish if you don't help me."  My daughter stammered and got so red in the face!  Fortunately this was an opportunity to provide her with some replies and help her stand her ground at school and with some pretty pushy teachers who like to shame their students as well.  You know, the standards like "that is your responsibility and you need to do it yourself", "I'd like to help you but I don't want to get hurt" "It isn't selfish for me to take good care of myself" etc.  

This all came up because we were talking about how when kids copy and cheat at school, the person copied off of gets in trouble too.  So that person has to be able to say NO to a friend who is putting them in a bad position.  

4. So back to approval seeking: I still struggle when having a difference of opinion (even a non-threatening "preference") because even if someone gets their bloomers in a knot about liking or not liking a movie, I think I did something wrong even if it is their problem.  Because I am not supposed to try and be the "opinion leader".  Big no-no amongst my family and the other women I hang with.  However, I did learn a great line from another mom: "can we still be friends if I disagree with you?" and then she delivers what she wants to say.  I thought that was brilliant and simple.

Sorry if I went off on another tangent.  This thread got me going!    Peace, Seeker

[BlueTopaz]

Hi Seeker,

Typing fast here!  On my way out for a run before it gets too late/dark.

It’s difficult to explain the feeling…

Depersonalization is a sense of being detached from ones emotions or “spirit” or  identity as they know it..  There are several ways someone might describe their own experience with it.  It can feel like being mechanical/robot-like, separate from everything, a sense of being in a dream-like or fantasy state, like everything is unreal, like you are watching yourself from the view of another person…

There is something that often goes along with that, called “derealization”.  That is kind of the same, but instead of feeling detached from ones own self, you feel detached from the environment.    These two often go hand in hand.

I guess that would be the perfect word actually, if I had to choose one to describe it....  detachment.  

I personally don't find it a scary or unpleasant thing at all, but just a very, very bizarre feeling.  If one is not afraid and knows that it is not a serious medical thing happening and that you will come out of it, it can almost be a pleasant experience, just for the sheer curiousness of it.   It is a bit like exploring another dimension of things...

Though, I wouldn't want it to happen too, too often...

BT

[Discounted Girl]

Hi BT & Seeker,
I guess I just kept missing you, Seeker, and sure glad to finally catch up  

These are just my interpretations and not a segway to a debate.

"Depersonalization"
I would say that describes a superficial, shallow, no-risk existence. Maybe you would mold into what others around you like to see, but it would be meaningless, cause your heart isn't in it, either to swell with joy or break from grief. Seeker, I doubt you would make a good Zombie.

"Detachment"
I was about to use the word detachment as a definition, but I think there is a difference. I once had a friend who fit this description. She never got "in the trenches" with anyone. She was friendly and fun most of the time, but you knew that if you really needed her, she would not be there and was not really committed to anything. She was a single mother as I was, so we had a lot in common, but more in difference. Example: she felt no obligation to ensure her children receive a higher education. I enjoyed her company but knew she was not gonna be there for the long haul.

However, I must admit, that while I have never been able to actually pull it off, I have tried to "detach" before, simply to get a rest.

Curiously, I saw a documentary on people who have had "near death experiences," and a great many of them are no longer able to maintain deeply committed personal relationships. They feel love enmasse, but not so much individually. A lot of their marriages break up and relationships with others change. Others feel less important to them and left out, as if the experienced one is floating on a higher plane, holding some secret knowledge that makes them somewhat divine. It's rather like some new age stuff that I became involved in several years ago. I have given most of that up, deciding it's a form of deception in the guise of a golden answer.

Just points I wanted to share.

Approval Seeker -- could be a pun. It is very exhausting isn't it? Hurry up little girl, do this, don't do that, don't say that, walk this way, smile that way, do as your told, don't cry, get good grades, pull down your skirt, comb your hair, don't laugh so loud, don't make mother mad. What did I do? Oh yeah, what? Oh, I forgot she doesn't like me to .....eeeekssss ...

I have made this line my notebook wallpaper, thank you.

CAN WE STILL BE FRIENDS IF I DISAGREE WITH YOU?

[Anonymous]

you know i think i get this depersonalisation and non realisation things too.i look it up on the interntet and it is a very well known definitions in psychologies field. i didn't ever knew this existed! wow.
so many things i feel and then i see their is a lot of studies and well know names for it. it lead me to more understanding that i am not sick in the body or crazy! one times i was thinking i had the brain tumor because of this strange perseptions

all of this is so much fascinating and i learn so much here from everyones!  

thanks

[Anonymous]

Guest,

Only an “FYI”, for the sake of accuracy to Seekers question, you are right about desensitization and derealization in that they are very specific psychological terms that describe the specific experiences.  What I described as a definition was not interpretive or supposed, but related to the well known (in the field) medical definition of these things.    

I had to laugh because I always used to think I had a brain tumor, too!!  I was notorious in my family for that.   For me it was because of the symptoms of an anxiety disorder, for which I didn’t know I had at the time.

Just like you described with d & d, many times I can say that I had no awareness of what was happening to me, and it is terribly distressing.   It happened to me at first with d & d as well.  The biggest part was that I had quite a severe anxiety disorder as a child and adolescent, with many symptoms.   Only years later when I learned about panic attacks, it all became crystal clear.   When I decided on my vocation and began to study psychology, I had so many “aha!” moments and had to refrain from jumping out of my seat in the lectures hehe…

When I was having severe panic attacks, I nor anyone around me had any idea what they were.   I was experiencing the sensation of electrical jolts in my head (hence I thought I had a brain tumor).  My poor, worried father had no idea what to think and was at a loss for what to do.  He kept saying not to worry because it was only “growing pains” hehe (it is only funny so many years later).  The doctors could find nothing, and not a single suggestion was made about panic disorder or anxiety related symptoms.  

Nowadays, if you say  “panic attack” its meaning is pretty well known by the general public, but it wasn’t at all when I was 13 -19.  Anyway, I think it is the same with so many things we can experience, especially if we have been deeply emotionally affected by something.   We don’t know these things have a name and that so many other people (often many millions) experience the exact same.

Though in this era of technology, it can be so different, and that is fantastic.   I think the Internet is such an amazing informative tool here, just like you used it.  

I’m very glad you figured out what you were experiencing has a name.  It makes allllll the difference, doesn’t it!  

[BlueTopaz]

That was me, "BlueTopaz" above.....

[Anonymous]

bluetopaz you had the brain tumour fears to! thank you for your words. my family was never bleiving me too and when i find these things i want to show them how cruel they were and wrong but i think they will always find the excuses to look at me as the bad and crazy one because they want to hide the truth of their abuse and sick ways.oh well.its only infos to help me and this is what matters!!for me and feeling good and to know i am well and ok.i'm sorry for my english and i hope its ok too.,
thankyou

[seeker]

Hi everyone!

DG, you made me laugh with the Approval Seeker pun.    Totally "got" me.   And thanks again for asking around about me.  It really felt pretty good to be missed by someone.  Hugs to you.  From now on, I'll try to remember to log on.  I've been posting as guest (it's faster) and then signing my posts.  

Thanks, all, for clarify the depersonalization idea.  No, I don't do this/have this.  But I felt for you BT when you described panic attacks and how long you have had them with no help.  Ay.  My panic attacks started only during a "war" with my NSIL.  I can't imagine what it would be like to grow up with someone as damaging as her with no help.  I think I would feel totally destroyed.  

What a lifesaver this board is to have people who understand what continual attacks on your very being feels like.  Fortunately in my case, I am an adult and one who didn't experience these before and got help right away with no one stopping me.  My H was a veritable rock (in the good supportive sense) during all of this.  

That's interesting stuff about the NDE people, DG.  I've read some of the accounts of the books which I find has really changed my perspective and helped me be a little more forgiving about people who are difficult.  I didn't know how detached the experience could make the NDE'ers.  But it makes sense.

Hugs, Seeker