Would like People's Opinions on This

[Ami]

I have this little flicker of hope,"Maybe, I can be a person?"                   Ami

[Gabben]

I feel also like a de-clawed cat in the world

This is such a great picture to illustrate than in fact we should be de-clawed, in a sense. To be de-clawed is to not fight back in the spirit of war or malice, like the fully clawed N's, perhaps? But rather when are left without a weapon we are forced to have to defend ourselves by turning into our inner resources of faith, hope and forgiveness -- healing.

I learned over the years a saying that is very helpful for me in the picture letting go...the saying goes "that everything that I have ever let go of in life has claw marks left in it." If I am leaving claw marks of malice in my struggle to let go then I am just not fully de-clawed yet.

[Ami]

Portia, I developed the "I am bad" at 14, when my F told me my M was "fine". Then, I went in to a kind of shock. I never had it daignosed but I became numb and am only coming out of it now.
 If my M were OK, then I had to be bad b/c that was what she told me.
 Prior to that, I could see my primal nature and that of others AND protect myself.
 I  stood up for myself when I needed to. I was not pushed around and even left all my friends when they got in to drugs. However, my F telling me that pushed me over the edge as far as trusting myself to be "human" and not bad. I thought my F would  not lie to me but he was the other half of the N team. I just saw that .
     Ami

[Gabben]

Portia, I developed the "I am bad" at 14, when my F told me my M was "fine". Then, I went in to a kind of shock. I never had it daignosed but I became numb and am only coming out of it now.
 If my M were OK, then I had to be bad b/c that was what she told me.
 Prior to that, I could see my primal nature and that of others AND protect myself.
 I  stood up for myself when I needed to. I was not pushed around and even left all my friends when they got in to drugs. However, my F telling me that pushed me over the edge as far as trusting myself to be "human" and not bad. I thought my F would  not lie to me but he was the other half of the N team. I just saw that .
     Ami

Your F did not protect you.

[Hopalong]

For me, sometimes it's hard to tell when I am digging productively versus when I am ruminating, which is (particularly for females, according to Martin Seligman) a major source of depression.

I think I can only stop the endless recycling of my NM pain (which is NOT to say that the pain didn't have to come out, it did, and it took years)...but I think I can only stop it when I really really understand that NM was, however selfish (and she was less cruel than others here) ... a damaged human being who had been cheated of the authentic happiness a whole or healing person can achieve.

Ultimately, she was witholding nothing I could not learn, with spiritual and community help, to build for myself and those I love.

So ultimately, it was seeing her humanity and forgiving her (not forgetting), that released me to stop the recycling.

Bluntly, it was also her death. But even before that, I was learning to no longer suffer over her inability to love.

xo
Hops

[Gabben]

I was learning to no longer suffer over her inability to love.

Thanks Hops.

I have learned to no longer suffer over my NM's inability to love me by learning to suffer the losses, by fully facing all the pain, it is in my pain that I have found that forgiveness for her and understanding, as you articulated well.

[Ami]

Hops, I don't know if you were refering to me or my thread as ruminating but I don't see it that way .
 I need to figure out my life patterns until my life works better.
                                  Ami

[Ami]

Your F did not protect  you.




What do you mean, Lise?        Ami

[Gabben]

Portia, I developed the "I am bad" at 14, when my F told me my M was "fine". Then, I went in to a kind of shock. I never had it daignosed but I became numb and am only coming out of it now.
 If my M were OK, then I had to be bad b/c that was what she told me.
 Prior to that, I could see my primal nature and that of others AND protect myself.
 I  stood up for myself when I needed to. I was not pushed around and even left all my friends when they got in to drugs. However, my F telling me that pushed me over the edge as far as trusting myself to be "human" and not bad. I thought my F would  not lie to me but he was the other half of the N team. I just saw that .
     Ami

Ami,

Your father was supposed to protect you, that is what good fathers do. He invalidated you, your reality and what you were experiencing with a very N mom. Can you see that he never protected you emotionally, perhaps he protected you financially which is the classic bread winner role that fathers believe is all they have to do but a "healthy" father will care for your emotional well being as well as your physical needs. You were a child still and yet it was ALL on you to stand up for yourself, what a burden of pain and loss...? Our parents are supposed to stand up for us, especially when we are being abused, does that make sense?

[Ami]

WOW THANKS    I always blamed myself.I never saw it that way.        ((((Lise))))))       Ami

[Hopalong]

Ami, I was referring to myself.

Hops

[Ami]

I am glad you have found s/thing that works, Hops.         Ami

[Meh]

Ami, your word choice "declawed cat" is really powerful. I can feel that.
It is basic for people/living organisms to be able to protect themselves, since infants and young children are not strong enough to protect themselves, their parents (if the parents were healthy) would have done that. I think of how big and strong adults are and then little kids, kids just don't have a chance against N parents. I don't think there is anything we as children of Nar-parents could have done to protect ourselves.

Sometimes I think I get down on myself for that- for not being stronger. It was probably impossible.

I think that is a really big thing, the : "my parents did not protect me".
It's even worse when one has to be protected from one's own parents, that is like a double whammy.

While I was writing this, I recall a time when I thought I was like a boiled-baby-mouse. I guess that was the weakest image my mind could come up with, and that image and feeling kept coming to me when I was living at home.

I don't feel that way anymore, I still have problems but I'm glad that I'm not a boiled baby-mouse anymore.

As an adult learning how to "stand up for myself" as they say, has been a struggle, I think this is directly a result of having once been a boiled baby mouse. People say its "social skills", I sometimes wonder if it is not a whole body-aura thing. People who stand up for themselves seem to have an invisible field around them. Because not only do they stand up for themselves but they don't often become Identified as a target.

Healthy parents want and teach their kids to be strong. It's like N parents want to keep their kids weak or something. After all the N parents wouldn't want their kids to "over power" them. 

[Gabben]

People who stand up for themselves seem to have an invisible field around them. Because not only do they stand up for themselves but they don't often become Identified as a target.

This reminded me of what happened to me when I first began learning to stand up for myself, that was back in my twenties. I was a alcohalic Nish person before I became a recovering one, not all N's are bad and the more that I heal the more I see how powerfully negative labeling can be. I am guilty of it, it comes from a place of contempt which I have found has many hiding places in my heart. Anyways...back to standing up for ourselves. I had a spiritual mentor who taught me how to do it....

I was working in a cafe and there was a coworker who was cold and rude to me, she was getting under my skin making my job unbearable. I went to my spiritual mentor (in AA we call them sponsors) and asked her what to do. She told me that I owed this coworker and amends...I was like "NO WAY she is mean to me!" But my sponsor told me that I was not being honest with her by not telling her my feelings about the way that she was speaking to her, therefore, I was not giving her a chance to improve herself as well as I was deceiving her which is always hurtful to us. She told me to go to her in a light hearted spirit but from a very sincere place letting her know that I had been wrong to her to not speak up sooner but that I was feeling hurt by the way that she spoke to me. It took a lot of courage on my part but I did it. The coworker was shocked to know that she was hurting me, she was not even aware, or at least she pretended that in defense, but everything changed after our short conversation, she was always respectful to me and never again rude. It blew me away. It changed me...

it was like one act of spine started a spontaneous growth of more spine without me having to do anything more. It seemed for many years that I went through life with that spine sign on my back rather than the doormat sign on my back.

[Ami]

People who stand up for themselves seem to have an invisible field around them. Because not only do they stand up for themselves but they don't often become Identified as a target.

This reminded me of what happened to me when I first began learning to stand up for myself, that was back in my twenties. I was a alcohalic Nish person before I became a recovering one, not all N's are bad and the more that I heal the more I see how powerfully negative labeling can be. I am guilty of it, it comes from a place of contempt which I have found has many hiding places in my heart. Anyways...back to standing up for ourselves. I had a spiritual mentor who taught me how to do it....

I was working in a cafe and there was a coworker who was cold and rude to me, she was getting under my skin making my job unbearable. I went to my spiritual mentor (in AA we call them sponsors) and asked her what to do. She told me that I owed this coworker and amends...I was like "NO WAY she is mean to me!" But my sponsor told me that I was not being honest with her by not telling her my feelings about the way that she was speaking to her, therefore, I was not giving her a chance to improve herself as well as I was deceiving her which is always hurtful to us. She told me to go to her in a light hearted spirit but from a very sincere place letting her know that I had been wrong to her to not speak up sooner but that I was feeling hurt by the way that she spoke to me. It took a lot of courage on my part but I did it. The coworker was shocked to know that she was hurting me, she was not even aware, or at least she pretended that in defense, but everything changed after our short conversation, she was always respectful to me and never again rude. It blew me away. It changed me...

it was like one act of spine started a spontaneous growth of more spine without me having to do anything more. It seemed for many years that I went through life with that spine sign on my back rather than the doormat sign on my back.

I am in the process of TRYING to get my spine back. I did have it once. Sometimes I can get it now but it does not feel natural. I feel guilty usually like I am  not worth standing up for myself but as I do it, it feels more right.                Ami