Author Topic: To Izzy  (Read 6118 times)

sKePTiKal

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2010, 12:25:12 PM »
Izzy, sweetie - Look:

I agree with you that over time, the "world" has changed - and sometimes not exactly for the better, depending on what one's value system is and the topic at hand. I happen to also fear some of things going on today, too.

However: the negative is only one side of the story of current events - what about all the great, wonderful, heartwarming things going on? What about the recovery of all the Chilean miners - alive, no less?? If we don't add up those things on our list of "pros-cons" for "the way things are", we don't have a complete picture, do we?

I learned, rather painfully, from the abuse and traumas I experienced as a kid, that NOTHING is ever "all good - all bad". No time in history, no religion, no people or culture, no government - is all good or all bad. Not me - and not even my Nmom. It's all a blender-ized mix of good things and bad things... and in reality, most things are some combination of good & bad together. It is not possible - and leads to dangerous kinds of self-defeating, paranoid thinking - to try to reduce "this thing" or "this person", etc to either just good or bad.

I also learned from my abusive FOO, that this kind of fear is the weapon of choice - the method used by people with real plans to control or dominate - to persuade people not to trust their own good sense; to not ask questions; to just do what they're told; to not see what is right in front of their eyes. To create pawns and foot soldiers in their army of ideas and fear; people who spread these ideas to even more people in some perverse and twisted attempt to do good - to spread the one-sided, fear-based "truth". But I didn't deduce that all on my little 12 yr old's mind's own...

... it was explained to me and made perfectly clear and understandable and simple by some people who lived through the horrors of WWII, in Germany and from other Eastern European countries. From both sides, in the war. For them, this use of fear was the real-life meaning and significance of FDR's phrase:

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.

Any time I hear a statement that is fear-based and attempts to spread and increase fear - of any one or any thing - I start to question it and the motives of the person/group making the statement. So far, those questions have only revealed that I need to be more afraid of the statement-makers than what they're saying we should be afraid of.

-------------------------

This is what I was trying to say on your other thread, Iz. But in the process of trying to say it and in an uncontrollable response to what you wrote - I wound up getting triggered into my own fears. Took me a while to work through that and by then, the topics had moved on and I just couldn't try anymore - without risking too much myself - to convince you that you're only seeing half a picture; that there's more to it than this body of rumors, suspicions, fear - that only feed back into itself and eventually blots out the sun.

I can understand & sympathize with why others are offended; these theories dehumanize and objectify the experience of countless individuals and dishonor their "stories"... the real, painful things they lived through - as if it doesn't matter. (Hence the connection with how I got triggered.) I can understand your fear, also, Izz... please don't just give in to it, without questioning it.

I tell you truly - cross my heart and hope to die - that things just aren't really that bad or "like" what the conspiracy theorists are proposing, in reality.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

JustKathy

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »
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Any more ‘pick on Izzy’ posts for today?

Wow. This is exactly what my NM does. Throws out hateful, bigoted comments, then, when people make her own it, she plays the victim card and says that people are "picking on her." If you're going to go on a message board (ANY message board), and post hate speech, you had better believe you're going to get called out on it.

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pushing interracial relationships, homosexuality, Lady GaGa types

This has been bothering me since I first read it, and I'd like to hear Izzy's explanation for how these things (which I consider tolerance and acceptance of people's differences) is causing the world to "change for the worse." Again, shades of my NM and her bigotry. Because I grew up with a bigoted mother (she hated both Jews and blacks), I have dedicated my life to being an advocate for human rights. I am an active member of the Human Rights Campaign and California's NOH8 campaign. I have many LGBT friends, as well as friends of various races and religion. So I would like to know, what is wrong with interracial marriage? Homosexuality? And what in HECK is a "Lady Gaga type?" I happen to love Gaga's music and admire the work she has done to promote tolerance. Is THAT the problem you have with her? She promotes tolerance?

Izzy, are you assuming that everyone on this board is a white Christian heterosexual? You can't see me. How do you know that I'm not black? Jewish? Gay? You say people are picking on YOU. Lord knows how many posters here have been offended by your words.

BTW, I don't know why you keep bringing up that you're Canadian, or what that has to do with anything, but I am Canadian. Now a naturalized US citizen, but born in Toronto.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:12:33 PM by JustKathy »

mudpuppy

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2010, 05:25:08 PM »
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Point taken, Mud...and I don't object to most of your examples of way-too-far lefties, either.

Thanks, Hops.
Interesting how the far left and far right converge in so many of their weird beliefs.

mud

Izzy_*now*

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2010, 05:31:52 PM »
Questions for reflection only, from my way of thinking…

Who wrote the history books from which I studied in the late ’40s early ‘50s?

After all these years, who is rewriting History, the winners or the losers?

Have the numbers, 6,000,000 Jews been embellished to an extreme? Was the Holocaust  all about Jews who were gassed, or did it include the many who died of typhoid, or the deaths of those who were slave labourers? Did it include other nationalities such as Poles, Gypsies, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Latvians? Was this is a case of attributing all deaths to only the Jews, and for what reason?

Are the numbers, 5,600,000 of German POWS embellished as well: not gassed but left, under Dwight D. Eisenhower, to die in concentration camps in freezing temperatures with no food or water, just to reduce the German population? Germans forced into labour and death, another 1,100,00?

I am not Anti- any religion or nationality, but prefer to listen to both sides of the story, and I have no doubt that there are embellishments on both sides.

After all, War is murder, and history is repeating itself with the death of soldiers and civilians, as in WWII.

Right now young men are abroad fighting an illegal war and so many have been killed, on both sides, and are still left to be killed.

I have nothing more to say on the subject, because I am not an expert, could not write a book about it and have not ‘memorized’ everything I have read---whether it be true or false.

Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

ann3

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 05:53:21 PM »
"Have the numbers, 6,000,000 Jews been embellished to an extreme?"  NO

Did non-Jews die in the camps? Yes

Did some die from disease?  Yes, but, they would not have been in the camps in the first place if the Nazis had not put them there, right?  Try to use some logical thinking.  ie:  if a car hits someone, but doesn't kill them, does that nullify the injury or the pain?  Does it make it a "hoax" because they are 'merely' injured & not dead?

You yourself used the words that "The Holocaust was a hoax".  Those are your words & your thoughts.

I admire how many people have posted to you with love & compassion, but, I doubt you will change.   I am guessing that you find comfort in hatred & negativity & you are therefore entrenched.  I hope I am wrong & I hope you will change.

Ever think that the books you read may have been wrong, incorrect?  Well, now you have the opportunity to read books which are truthful & accurate.  Will you read them?  It's your choice.

Izzy_*now*

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 06:16:43 PM »
to Ann3
My questions were for reflection only.

Please do not reply to any of my posts again! You point a finger and 3 more are pointing back at you.
Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

cgm1028

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2010, 06:27:20 PM »
Six million people died because of the policies in place in Nazi Germany during WWII.  The manner in which they died is really not the point, the point is that they did die.  And they died because Hilter thought them less than human, expendable, and voiceless.  Whether you wish to believe them or not, the facts remain that it did happen.  But Izzy you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.  I know arguing with you is pointless and nor do I wish to do.  I have better things to do with my time.

I will say what I find so objectional is you choose this board, a board about voicelessness of all things, to take away the voices of all the survivors of that horror.  All of us here have been made to feel less than, expendable and voiceless.  This is not a platform for your political opinions, there are other places that will welcome your slant on the Holocaust.  Do us all a favor and go there next time.

Dr. Grossman, if I may suggest, a post from you may be in order stating that political discussions are not appropriate here.  There are other forums specifically for that purpose.

Okay - getting off my soapbox.

ann3

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2010, 06:30:48 PM »
Izzy,

I reply to you because I want you to understand the deeply, deeply serious implications and effects of what you have posted.

It's not just an "ooops, I made a mistake".  You have spread venomous hate & in some countries, what you did is considered to be a CRIME:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Laws against Holocaust denial
Main article: Laws against Holocaust denial

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[161]

The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[162]

Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide, implying Holocaust denial was still a crime, but excluding the term itself.[citation needed] The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[163]


I am trying to make you understand the gravity of your words.  So, no, as much as you wish to sweep this away & consider me a jerk, no, you will not silence me.

JustKathy

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2010, 06:40:18 PM »
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Please do not reply to any of my posts again!

If you don't want a reply, then don't post the comment in the first place.

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Dr. Grossman, if I may suggest, a post from you may be in order stating that political discussions are not appropriate here.  There are other forums specifically for that purpose.

I feel the same way. I voiced my concerns about this when Izzy started a thread comparing Obama to Hitler (ironic, since she now states that Hitler didn't do what he was accused of). I was told at the time that the thread was relevant, but it upset me enough to drive me away from the board for several months. I need this board to help me with problems relating to my N mother. As you said, there are plenty of boards where one can post anti-Obama sentiments or conspiracy theories or holocaust denial. This isn't the place.

ann3

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2010, 06:41:45 PM »
Hi CGM,

I love what you wrote.  Very succinct:  Bad enough she wrote it, but to post it here, of ALL places!!  Yes, I agree.

However, as I just posted, in some countries, what Izzy posted is considered to be a crime.  

So, it's difficult:  I don't want her to get away with this.  As long as Izzy posts here, I want her to understand (or at least feel) the gravity of what she's done.  I realize that probably will not happen.  Usually, Holocaust Deniers are entrenched in their hateful, twisted minds.

But, you see, she shows no remorse, not even an apology to the Board for causing a kerfuffle.  And, I guess that's what really gets me:  not a drop of remorse, won't give an inch, keeps defending herself.  It's all so triggering for people who suffer from voicelessness & who endeavor to overcome voicelessness.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 06:54:19 PM by ann3 »

ann3

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2010, 06:49:07 PM »
Wow, JustKathy,

I'm really happy your back & posting!  You make a lot of sense.  Of course this is an inappropriate place for her to post her junk.  Yes, I hope she finds another board & leaves us alone!!!!!!!!!!

cgm1028

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2010, 06:50:01 PM »
@ Ann - thank you.  I did know about the laws in place in other countries.  Good point to bring up.

@ Izzy - your post to Ann about prohibiting her commenting on your posts is laughable.  Did you not expect any backlash from that Pandora's Box you opened?  Seriously!

JustKathy

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2010, 06:52:07 PM »
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But, you see, she shows no remorse, not even an apology to the Board for causing a kerfuffle.  And, I guess that's what really gets me:  not a drop of remorse, won't give an inch, keeps defending herself.  It's all so triggering for people for suffer from voicelessness & who endeavor to overcome voicelessness.

Exactly. I hate to say this, but I feel like I'm arguing with an N. This is EXACTLY what my NM does . . . throws a hurtful, hateful comment out there, defends it to the death, and never EVER feels remorse.

I would still like Izzy to answer my question about why she has a problem with interracial marriage, gays, and "Lady Gaga types," but I'm guessing that once gets conveniently ignored.

ann3

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2010, 07:08:20 PM »
Hi cgm,

Thank you.  Notice that almost all the countries that have made it a crime are countries in which the Holocaust actually occurred.  So, those countries KNOW how DESTRUCTIVE  Holocaust Deniers are because they experienced it FIRST HAND.  IT WAS NO HOAX.  

Yes, Pandora's box.  I said she opened this can of worms, so she's got to live with the consequences.

And, yes, Kathy, the whole Nism of it all.  They do wrong, you tell them & all you get is denial, defensiveness, no apology, no consideration for your feelings.  Ugh, Izzy is an N trigger.

Dear Kathy:  you know what she thinks & what she'd say about "interracial marriage, gays, and "Lady Gaga types".  Why let that poison touch your eyes & ears?  You're too good for that & you've come too far, we all have, to listen to her garbage.

We shall overcome, we have overcome & we shall not let her poison defeat us.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 07:10:16 PM by ann3 »

JustKathy

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Re: To Izzy
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »
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Did non-Jews die in the camps? Yes

Yes. Gays and "Lady Gaga types" were also killed. Hmmmm.

History lesson for you Izz. The pink triangle that has become a symbol for the gay community started in Nazi Germany. Just as Jews were forced to wear identifying stars on their clothing, gays were forced to wear pink triangles.