Author Topic: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings  (Read 10077 times)

Guest

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 07:24:15 PM »
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When I was a kid there used to be these handheld number puzzles with sliding red/white squares and one empty space...


I remember those! I don't think I had the patience to solve them though. I haven't felt the need to learn new pc games...and i may not be fast or clever enough to play them. I'm not going to set myself up to fail all the time against angry birds! A difficult enough suduko is good enough for me.

(((((((Amber)))))))

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2011, 09:45:23 AM »
Huh... that's interesting Guest - I think I NEED to have these kinds of failures (during play)... to "prove" to myself that nothing bad happens.........

I won't get into my Rick Santelli-style rant about how as a society, we've become so failure-averse that we therefore aren't taking any risks whatsoever - and what the consequences of this are....

But for sure, on a personal level... part of my struggle can be overly-generalized into one of learning to take risks again and of understanding that failure isn't the "end of the world". And the fact is, if a game is too easy and I can blow through levels on the first shot - I get bored and stop playing.... looking for a bigger challenge. Or if there's a game that's poorly designed and no amount of skill is adequate to get the points or "gold stars" to move on... then I end up rejecting that one. I have a stack of games that after a few tries, just stopped interesting me. And mostly, I'm competing against myself or the computer... building skill and competency... not competing against other people.

Playing cards with hubs & MIL... it soon became obvious to everyone (including thick-headed me) that I often choose to make plays that aren't consistent with the statistical method of amassing the most points and "winning". Drove MIL crazy that I would just dig in my heels and make one of those plays - even when she gave me a chance to take my card back and make the better play. And guess what? I won just enough times with this method - and pure luck (running the odds) - that she started to see what I was doing.

To me, going for all the points every time, knowing that statistically this averages out to more wins, isn't interesting. I want to experiment and see what happens IF or WHEN... I want to know the impact of holding back a card and choosing a different timing... I'm just weird enough in how I think that I want to know how these other play patterns work and when/how they can be used to advantage... even against the undeniable success of the statistical method of playing to amass the most points. (There really isn't a way to quantify or define the randomness of "luck"...)

I guess, in my odd way, this is the mindset that made me vulnerable to self-sabotage and worse... and how I'm sometimes completely blind to the obvious. The reason for playing cards a certain way, even though occasionally another method method can succeed, is that overall it's consistently more often the "winning" method. Getting too obsessed with alternate methods means I miss the "point of diminishing returns"... because I'm "hoping".... that maybe THIS time... I'll get lucky and that worm-hole in the universe's space-time continuum opens and the other player's cards will fall into exactly the right pattern... and my wacked-out theory will succeed. Odd, isn't it, that those theories do succeed just often enough to keep that hope alive?
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2011, 10:25:06 AM »
So... I'm thinking today about how often and in how many different ways... those of us from extremely dysfunctional/abusive FOOs...

... go out of our way to choose inaction or paralysis, self-sabotage, even self-defeating life choices... because of some warped idea that this is the "responsible" thing to do... or because it avoids a conflict... or because we're afraid to stand up and say --

"THIS is what I want whether you like it or not and I'm ALLOWED to try to attain/achieve it".
----------------------------

I'm also thinking about how some of our emotional blockages (and emotions associated with the statement above) are determined by those old, old traumatic moments trapped forever in our brain-wrinkles... and we forget to realize that the other characters in that "memory"... have grown older, changed, etc. and are no longer the same people we might've been "protecting" through our behaviors and choices... all this time.

And how we've also changed.

So the "present moment" - even when we try to untangle old dysfunctional crap with people from those stories - is completely different and all of the variables and conditions are different... even though not everyone will acknowledge this... particularly the N or borderline or psycho ones... and so they attempt to run the same old mind-games... guilt-trips... and even passive-aggressive strategies... EXPECTING us to respond in the same old, same old, role-patterns. So they can continue to control situations for their own purposes...

And since I'm on this roll this morning (due to a real life situation/decision) ... I'm going to wonder out-loud if the laws of nature and the universe would really even notice... IF I decided to act in a completely different way and decide that I will control the situation, instead... and that I won't be moved by the old strategies; no wounds - I know what to expect from the parties involved...

and say out loud, officially - this is what I want, and I'm allowed to want this and "make it so". And release any claim to control of anyone else's reactions... let the chips fall where they may, in other words.


In a very real way, I've been able to describe the "sick person at the center" that I've been kowtowing to... and people have heard me and agree... and are willing to help find solutions. It's kinda knocked my socks off and thrown my "reality" for a loop... and I'm trying to adjust. I know I'm not being fair, not "telling the story" with concrete details yet... to you all. I will get there. This is a damn big cliff I'm peering over... and could have immense consequences.

Risk is necessary... some risks can be anticipated and "controlled"... and plan Bs and backup systems in place... but there is no progress without some measure of risk.... and it's simply not possible to anticipate everything... and perhaps I'm just un-necessarily scaring myself with what-ifs... too. Magnifying...

I'm just tired of common sense and myself being "held hostage"... because I'm afraid of pissing you-know-who off.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2011, 10:26:10 AM »
Hmmmm.... sounds like you might have a touch of the gambler's pock, Amber.



as usual....

very timely, for me.

Hope your d's doing OK.

Light

Guest

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2011, 11:20:36 AM »
I get playing the card patterns Amber. I don't play to win at all costs with other humans either (but I do beat the pc :D). I saw a 4 year old last weekend and got him to explain some toy to me. Apparently I do this so well, acting the dumb adult ('what's that for?'), that kids actually believe that I don't know the answer....hmm. As for failing games, only if it's obvious that it's too quick for me, or I'll get bored quickly.

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I'm just tired of common sense

I'm just ....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....<sleeping emoticon>

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 08:24:34 AM »
Hi Light... yes, she and the kids are adjusting pretty well. It helps that they're all in counselling right now. Here's something "odd" that my other D and I both recognized about her... she "sounds" more like "herself"... as in, the tone and timber and accent of her voice is her genuine authentic one... and doesn't have layers of stuff masking or pretending to be someone else. She's still very poor but has a subsistence job... but she also has a help network and is beginning to explore making plans for a better job/career.

Other D is also getting her act together... so I'm not holding my breath as much these days.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 10:23:45 AM »
Amber: 

You really seem to be holding your own with regard to letting your girls handle what's theirs, while you handle on what's yours.

At least that's how you're coming accross on the board.

Question: 

Do you lend support and suggestions only when asked for specifically for something?

Or.......

 do you draw from your knowledge and experience, sharing bare minimum of what you see?

Do you ever regret your silence?  Now or in the past?

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 10:43:06 AM »
Oh, I'll offer support when it makes sense... sometimes, I'm turned down or told "not yet". Both are gaining a real sense of their own boundaries... and my relationship with both of them (now) works for all of us. I'm trying only to open doors to possibilities for them, to increase their own confidence in themselves - not saying it's the right one, you know? That's up to them. But they also know Mom won't turn & run - won't abandon them.

LOL! there hasn't been a whole of lot of "silence" between my D's and me... there was a disruption in my relationship with the oldest, the one with kids now. It's still a mystery to me about what happened and why.... but I have told her how I felt.


But if you mean, do I regret the silence I kept with myself - about what I went through... (and am still going through)... how does one regret surviving? It's what I had to do.

But I don't have be silent anymore. I am allowed (and being encouraged to) protect myself and my interests from further dysfunctional crap... I have enough validation that I ought to be jumping up and down - yelling - SEE??? I'm not the crazy one!!!!

OTHER PEOPLE believe me now, you know? I'm still waiting for permission to believe my own self - that I'm ALLOWED to consider only my own best interests - without including excess consideration of the dysfunctional ones. (It's not like those people give a rat's about my interests, you know?)

Tip-toe........ through the eggshells....

I'm too old for that sh** these days.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2011, 08:48:44 AM »
In fairness to my inner and past selves...

I guess that I probably DO need a lot of validation, reassurance and encouragement... to believe that it's OK to act in my own self-interest without overcompensating and eggshell dancing around other's interests (since when have I been able to accurately predict what those disputed issues might be ANYWAY??) My experience has been that I've paid a very high price every time I attempted to act in my own self-interest (though granted, the "experiences" are based on selective memory...)***

But, "experience" is based on a whole complex set of criteria - a past "present moment" with millions of variables - so to always believe that past experience can be applied to present situations... and that those actions <--> reactions will be consistent with past experience... is well, a rather "primitive" belief. Sort of like believing magic spells that are based on something belonging to a certain person will have an effect on that person. The fear-based "experience" of our brains extrapolates that past experience and projects it on a completely new set of variables... when only one or two of the criteria match between the present situation and the past. Completely missing all the differences... discounting them... dismissing them, even... therefore, not even accounting for them...

... and then those amygdala brain systems engage emotions... and ZOOM... we're off on a re-run of a past situation - in our experience, anyway. Replaying the old emotional audio-video tape... the old roles... probably making the same mistakes... and yet still hoping for a completely different result. But, this is one of the more primitive parts of our brains - three fries short of a happy meal in the cognition and meaning and understanding department. It's not one of the more "higher functioning" parts of our brain.

We have to rely on other parts of our brain (that aren't emotionally stimulated) to intervene and say: "Hold up... that "snake" isn't moving... and look: it has 2 maybe 3 "arms" or branches... oh DUH... it's just a stick" before we are able to send the order to the self-defense troops to stand down; false alarm. And then it takes some time for the adrenalin to drain down to normal levels, the shakiness to wear off... and to be able to laugh at how we scared ourselves.

There are states of consciousness that are less susceptible to this re-run (or triggered emotion) effect. A sense of being present in and aware of one's body and the more all-encompassing awareness of meditative states, for example. Both use breathing awareness to put the brakes on the runaway amygdala train LONG ENOUGH that other parts of the brain can get alerted that they need to participate in the process... and can head off the primitive fear-based self-defense parts of the brain before the false alarm is sounded.


***
It is ironically fascinating that my memory likes to store those past experiences that didn't go well more often than the experiences that did... and assign way more importance to them, than the probably zillions more experiences I've had that were a lot more pleasant. A morbid fascination, I guess, with learning the "don't ever do that again" lessons... or perhaps, it's the impact of trauma (and for me, the ming-boggling emotional-trauma aftermath that made things so much worse)... that temporarily "broke" the communication system between the parts of my brain that gives the "stand down" orders to the amygdala...

... and I jumped to the wrong conclusion; I assumed that once broken - always broken; and that the old experience of trying to survive (act in my own self-interest) would have serious, awful consequences.

There is also an attachment issue here... an infant cries in discomfort (acting in it's own self-interest)... and when the response is neglect, isolation, or angry and resentful treatment... that infant internalizes the "never do that again" lesson of very bad results when acting in one's own self-interest.

------------------------------------------------------------

We are more than our brains and emotions; we also have a physical body. It stands to reason, for me at least, that if my brain and emotions can elicit physical sensations in my body... that it should also work the other way 'round - like in my example of being centered and aware of my body... like Iz's nerve-related gnashing & clattering of teeth - those are electrical signals that contain "data"... the brain is just the central processing server... and all the nerves, muscles and sensations of the body send their data to that "server"...

... and it's just possible, maybe, that if I can generate enough physical "feel good" sensations over a long enough period of time - food, exercise, proprieception, comfort - maybe this will ultimately nudge my selective memory over into a focus on more pleasant memories... and let go of the bad ones... and make it easier for me to engage in what is in my self-interest, more angst free.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2011, 10:45:13 AM »
Amber, hope it's okay if I quote an earlier post and comment:

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"THIS is what I want whether you like it or not and I'm ALLOWED to try to attain/achieve it".
I get this, but it is very difficult for some of us to know what we want. It's much easier to know what is 'right'. Perhaps that's what we 'want'.

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IF I decided to act in a completely different way and decide that I will control the situation,
are you sure you can even try and control it?
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I know what to expect from the parties involved...
that sounds like a big help. I find it very difficult to know what to expect.

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and say out loud, officially - this is what I want, and I'm allowed to want this and "make it so". And release any claim to control of anyone else's reactions... let the chips fall where they may, in other words.
I'm all for letting chips fall where they may. That's life. And you presumably didn't make the situation happen all by yourself, so let others do as they may.

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In a very real way, I've been able to describe the "sick person at the center" that I've been kowtowing to... and people have heard me and agree... and are willing to help find solutions. It's kinda knocked my socks off and thrown my "reality" for a loop... and I'm trying to adjust.
I guess when we stop adjusting we stop living, to an extent?

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This is a damn big cliff I'm peering over... and could have immense consequences.
Who is going to die Amber? (Well we all are.) Will the consequences include genocide? That's what i meant about the usefulness of comparison.

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Risk is necessary... some risks can be anticipated and "controlled"... and plan Bs and backup systems in place... but there is no progress without some measure of risk.... and it's simply not possible to anticipate everything... and perhaps I'm just un-necessarily scaring myself with what-ifs... too. Magnifying...
see above. :)

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I'm just tired of common sense and myself being "held hostage"... because I'm afraid of pissing you-know-who off.
Somebody, somewhere is gonna be pissed off no matter what we do. Anyway, it's not about what they feel, it's about what we 'want'..or what is 'right'..or perhaps you could put that much better than me?

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2011, 10:19:03 AM »
Thanks Guest! Seeing those statements together (and your comments) does help. I need to clarify what I mean about "control" of the situation. And instead of "comparison" I would use the phrase "relative significance"... to put something into perspective. The word comparison didn't register in my overly complex (!) way of thinking about things.

Control isn't the right word. I know better than to think I can "make" people do things!! I know better than to believe I can control other people or even processes - which most of the time develop a life of their own. What I mean, is to become active in a situation (knowing what I want and taking the necessary steps to get what I want). Or maybe control is right - but the object of the control is my own self. With FOO members, I am overly, unnecessarily inhibited... always seeking permission, approval, their "blessing" - and most importantly avoidance of being the target of anger and disapproval... for anything I am, say, want, or do. It's like a classic Freudian COMPLEX... and fear is the active ingredient in all that. Fear that somehow - even now - the results will end up being same and the FOO crap will continue and the perpetrator will "get away with it". AGAIN.

It's the very fundamental difference of thinking and acting and strategizing from a defensive posture - to an offensive one. My defensive strategies have all been passive and self-destructive at the worst and self-limiting, in it's most benign form (to manage my own impulsive anger, I think). The whole context of the situation changes when I create the "landscape" and actively initiate changes that I want... and while I need to be aware that not all the results of that activity are predictable, many of them can be accounted for in advance... and even responses planned for. I am not powerless; I have every right to my own power... and if, in exercising that power a conflict develops... by now, I should be reasonably comfortable in my ability to find and establish a compromise. I've created a lot of win-win solutions, in my day.

So... the difference between "want" and "right"... this part I do get, Guest. And there is a clear path down off that cliff, even though there are some slippery rock falls in places and gaps to be jumped over. And one thing I know from painful experience is that "right" is almost always seen differently between myself and the FOO-trapped folks. I've ALWAYS let someone else's RIGHT prevail... and not stood up for my own. And that choice has always permitted their RIGHT to hold sway - and "control" situations. Still does, in fact. And in my SELF - I still feel it's taboo to challenge that; create that conflict; take the risk on my own right - place my bet on myself, in other words. I am the one being "controlled" here... you know?

That changed, when I realized - duh, finally! - there's no real important relationship that I'm putting at risk here; not anymore. There hasn't been, for years and years - except in my own thoughts. So, let the chips fall where they may... I'm not responsible for other people's emotional equilibrium... and if my right "offends" them... well - like I've been told so many times: they'll just have to get over it. There is always a compromise - but compromise isn't defined as me always acquiescing to someone else's point of view of what "right" is.... giving up for the sake of "peace" - because there really isn't any peace gained by that.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2011, 01:03:41 PM »
Thanks Amber, I feel we're at similar places in some ways so your posts are helping me. When you say "there's no real important relationship that I'm putting at risk here" that resonates. I've been thinking the same for some time. In fact I'm seeing all sorts of relationships in slightly different (and very different, in some cases) lights. I get what you mean about control. Reminds me of learning the difference (grey areas, assertiveness) between being acquiescent and aggressive.

I guess peace is being in harmony with ourselves. And that includes knowing what we want....what we think is 'right' and what we think is wrong. Just a few thoughts there. Back to spring cleaning.

Meh

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2011, 02:37:30 AM »
Quote: "I asked, what I thought was a simple yes - no question and what I got back from her was a continuous stream of information and regulation that she was obviously reading. "

--My first reaction is she doesnt know and that is why she is reading instead of answering your question. Just my reaction to your description.


Hi Amber. I really have absolutely zero thoughts about anything right now. I just felt like posting a Hello mainly.

HI!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 02:58:14 AM by Boat that Rocks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2011, 08:44:41 AM »
Hi, rockin' boat...

The last thing I posted here about active/passive mindsets... ways of seeing the world and how I fit into it... well, one of the things that results from "really getting it" about what I said, is that I'm feeling a little playful now... I was reading how you're starting to explore this too. Wanna play? What should we play?

Maybe we could start a just for fun thread... like maybe I could try to teach you to play piano on a thread (I used to teach faculty how to use online ed... and music was resistant to the medium for a while - but not anymore!!). Something simple at first - like twinkle twinkle little star, you know? It's just an idea... (but yeah, I think I can back this up... and connect the physical arrangement of keys to notes in sheet music... and sound...) Then again - I've always wished I could just sit down and play free of the constraints of sheet music. I can't "jam" because that's spontaneous (big problem for anal me...) and so I'm limited to what's on the paper in front of me. Some of the best jazz and blues pianists couldn't read music... they just "felt" it. My D can do this - but she can sing, too... and I absolutely can't - LOL - cats and dogs howl when I try to sing! But I still do in the car.


Guest - I'm glad my "inner mumblings" inspire some ideas for you. Peace... serenity... isn't an empty place for me, or at least not all the time. Many times it's full and free and big groups of people making chaos and fun... things I often shy away from and deny myself. And I've got this "feeling" - that's all it is - that it's not a good idea for me to classify my wants into right or wrong. My actions and words, sure. My intentions that I'm acting on. But my "wants" - all of them are part of who I am at some all-inclusive level - and I'm still getting to know that person. Accepting her. And listening carefully.... because she still mostly is afraid to say "I want"... and name it. How can a "want" be "wrong" anyway? It only exists in the mind-world... not the real world... it's an idea with a feeling attached to it... and I'm becoming persuaded that right/wrong is completely totally irrelevant when trying to apply this to feelings.

Right and wrong, for me - only exist in relationships and external actions in the physical world. In my inner world, these categories aren't necessary and definitely aren't functional - if anything, trying to apply right-wrong there helps create my inhibited, yes-sir-how-high-sir, whatever you want sir habit of relating to the world. It helps sustain the paralysis... and helps sustain the illusion that the cliff of choosing to act on what I want (assuming of course, I'm not a "bad" person and what I want is legal and fair) - the illusion is scarier and more dangerous, which helps reinforce the paralysis.

Right and wrong spawn "shouldas", "couldas" and "wouldas"... and I think might be behind many rationalizations and conditional thinking, too. At least in my observations of how my particular warped inner world works! Your mileage and journey may vary.

Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: 43rd "Anniversary" Mumblings
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2011, 10:04:50 AM »
Yes, okay Amber I see what you mean.

In my world I guess I clung to my rights and wrongs because so many people around me didn't have any morality or their morality was very warped - or so it seemed. So mine was a rock. Maybe I should let it go? Maybe for me it would be a change not to stand up for my rights? Just go with the flow. My teeth are gritted at the thought! (I know what going with the flow really means and I enjoy doing it, but it has a secondary meaning here for me which is hippy-dippy take-no-responsibility-for-anything and 'don't have any opinions' abusive kind of game.)

Of course feelings are not right or wrong. I think maybe I misunderstood where you're going with the wants?