Author Topic: Can Ns read minds?  (Read 2919 times)

Ales2

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Can Ns read minds?
« on: February 22, 2012, 02:21:20 PM »
Interesting article on Narcissists and the dark triad.  Kaufman is becoming a real expert on this subject.

article here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-barry-kaufman/narcissists-theory-of-mind_b_1279069.html

sKePTiKal

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 07:51:55 AM »
Not just Ns have this ability - I took his test for N and scored really low*; took the eye test and scored better than average. If you grew up with an N - or MI or alcoholic parent - developing that mind-reading ability was a survival skill. The one thing I noticed on the eye-test that pretty accurately describes me... is that I missed all the cues for play, joking, etc. In general, I can't interpret the more subtle positive facial expressions. That matches what happens a lot with hubs - he'll say something to me and I take it at face value, that he's serious - when he's just joking. I have no way to tell that from his body language, at all... often, he'll mimic the body language of the more serious meaning, instead of the gentle "joke". THAT's when I feel the most "out of sync"... when I don't get a joke, can't tell when I'm being teased, when someone is "playing" with me... I guess that's like a "blind spot".

But anything other than play? I might score myself at reading people's emotions around 80-90%. It was useful at work - teaching - because often people would hide how frustrated they were, or self-berating... because of the learning curve in technology. When I communicated what I thought they were feeling, and that I empathized - the emotion shifted enough that they could try again, or now "hear" how it worked (or didn't the way they wanted it to). Technically, that's manipulation. But the motivation was to help these faculty retain their jobs, in an educational shift to relying on technology to teach... then later, to be creative with it and apply their career-long educational philosophy (tried & true) using tech tools.

*I agree with the comments on that site, that denial/lack of self-awareness could skew the results of the Ntest.

I thought the observation that Ns can read emotion... and then manipulate that... was applicable to what my Nmom always said about me. That she always knew what I was thinking - it was written on my face. And what she was really reading were my emotions - NOT what I was thinking. The feedback I got from her in those situations was my feelings - and her THOUGHTS and judgements about them. No wonder I felt like an alien dropped from the sky - misfit - that there was something "wrong" with me. You know? Because I could still hear my own thoughts then... they weren't drowned out by the later projections and rules and "she who must be obeyed".

It was toxic tango - in that I was driven by this need to connect, to be understood, to be able to trust & relax with someone who'd care for me and about me... and this was apparently not part of my mom's abilities. Instead... well y'all know the drill. That level of enmeshment was necessary for HER - but it suffocated me. For a long time, it confused the hell out of me, too.

I am immensely grateful my mom couldn't read my mind... what I thought was way darker even, than what I felt.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

finding peace

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 11:33:25 PM »
IMO - no, they can't read minds. 

They are particularly adept at learning to read people/body language - once they learn it, they use it to exploit one's weakness to their benefit.

((((PR)))) everything you said! 

FP
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 07:02:49 AM »
This is kinda a divergence - but still kinda related to the idea that cognitive/emotional "intelligence" are handled in separate parts of the brain:

This month's Wired magazine has a big article on PTSD and it's called "The Forgetting Pill". The article covers some of the latest neuroscience on PTSD, and no the author isn't convinced that taking a pill to "erase" a traumatic memory is such a good thing. For a magazine article, it was a pretty long read - but I like that about Wired. Point of crossover, overlap or intersection with the article Ales posted is the idea that there are these two areas of the brain that handle the "narrative" of memories... and the "emotional sequence" of memories.

As I've chatted with some of y'all about PTSD, I think we kinda stumbled on this idea ourselves and the point is made in the Wired article, that in PTSD, it's not the narrative memory that is the problem: it's not the "he said - she said - this happened" part of memories that needs "fixing" or that "breaks" us. Rather, it's the emotions that are associated with the memory that are the "problem" - that kinda stop us in our tracks from participating in our lives and moving on... or that "come back up" to knock our feet out from under us because it was never resolved, it was stuffed, or repressed or... whatever.

It appears that the key to getting better from PTSD is separating the narrative memory from the emotions - disconnecting the emotional jolts associated with that story and disrupting the neural pathways - the routine same old emotional "track" in our mind - that emotionally, always leads us back to insurmountable grief, or pain... learned helplessness... outrage... total panic... futility... etc crap. Talk Therapy gets a mention - along with how difficult it is; how long it takes to "rewire" those memories to less intense emotional levels. Mention is made - I don't know how true it is - that some people respond better than others to this kind of rewiring process. For whatever set of complex reasons, some people simply can't "go there" that easily (not that it's not excruciatingly difficult, for those who can)... so talk therapy simply doesn't seem to "work" as well. After all, the process does involve re-traumatizing ourselves under the watchful care of our T... who is there precisely to supply the empathy, understanding, comfort and consoling that we needed for the original emotional wound. What I've called re-breaking a poorly set broken bone... in order to heal. That's a mighty big risk to take - to retraumatize oneself - in order to heal. There aren't - can't be - any guarantees going into the process.

And that's where the search is on for some other kind of "cure". What has been discovered, is that if the emotional part of the memory is blocked during the retelling - the neural connection of emotion to the narrative memory is weakened. The more this is weakened, the more one can "let go" of deep down, personal emotional constrictions associated with the memory. The narrative memory remains - you don't forget this happened, in other words. But you don't react emotionally, as intensely as if you were still going through the original trauma. And this seems to work for people who've tried talk therapy and didn't get the results they wanted... faster than the process of therapy.

MAYBE: This could also apply to non-traumatic, but still life-affecting emotional neglect/abuse/poor parenting as a child - those poor primary attachments... because in some ways, this kind of emotional issue isn't much different than trauma - it's just that trauma usually happens in a condensed, short time frame, very intensely... and the other happens over the course of years, repetition on repetition, drip by drip by drip... but in our brains - both are simply connections of neurons from one part of our brain to another. Those neuron connections do change; can be changed... change simply by being alive... but not a whole lot is known yet, about this works. There is some current debate about "neural plasticity" and what the mechanisms of it are... how it works... and trying to find out if there are any limitations to what is possible. I think it works, but then whaddooIknow? Just thought I'd pass it on...
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finding peace

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 02:16:38 PM »
Sorry Ales if my previous post sounded flip.  I wasn't able to read the whole article - my computer kept closing the site.

I read it today, and found it fascinating.  It pretty much nailed my father.

FP
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Ales2

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 12:41:29 AM »
No apologies necessary - you are always entitled to your opinions. I just thought it was an interesting article - but was undecided myself on what it all means.

Redhead Erin

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Re: Can Ns read minds?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 11:01:40 AM »
Read minds?  Who knows.  But I am certain-sure that mine is telepathing in some way, as she always knows to call and bother us on the one day hubs and I have off together.