Nar communication style

[Meh]

Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person.  Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her").  It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.'  Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.

Growing up as a kid my father always talked to me this way in the second person like you point out above.

For a long time I thought it was correct speaking/correct english to talk like this. Then I noticed one time when I was speaking in second person like this one of my co-workers seemed to dislike it and I sort of switched to first person.

I always thought of speaking in second person in terms of --I don't know almost like the person is making a general statement rather than a personal statement or something.

It's sort of confusing though when a person uses second person and really means first person.

[Meh]

So I read an article that makes a line between normal or standard social Narcissism or Healthy Narcissism compared to pathological Narcissism.

So of course there is a part of me that says why am I the target of the so called Narcissism in my family...and it even makes me wonder what they do is "healthy Narcissism"

But it leads me on to something else. Somewhere on this board somebody mentioned a while ago that there is a cooresponding personality disorder that gets triggered by the Narcissism. Is that like an inferiority issue or what is that PD called?

Because it seems that maybe people who didn't grow up as targets of their parents personality disorders are less reactive to "healthy Narcissism/social Narcissism" whatever that is. If a person has a web of NAR issues in their FOO then it makes them more susceptible to Nar people later in life like it triggers something??

[Meh]

Also, does the N in anyone else's life like to tell other people what they think or feel?  

I bet that if you try to correct the N when the N is telling you what you think or feel--that you get a vacant sort of response or I don't know what kind of response you get. But N's are not open to clarifying to make sure both people are really on the same page as far as communication and understanding goes. At least that is what I have noticed. There is no openess to understanding in the communication process. I think probably healthier communication happens when both people are seeking to understand each other a little better.

Sometimes I think the Nar- person does get it like in my mothers's case but the lack of clarifing or openness towards the other is sort of like an insolent brat-ishness. Kind of like: "I"M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU!"

I mean in telling another person what they should think or feel it is sort of saying the same thing "I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU!"

What I notice is that my Nar-mother never ever says she is sorry.
If I ever am direct in saying what I think the truth of the situation is--the Nar people say that I'm trying to use guilt on them and they get very angry and mean.

The only good thing about my relationships with my relatives getting so bad is that there really is no more pretense of caring or pretense that I am a family member. Growing up as a kid and teenager I always intuitively felt but didn't understand these things, I felt invisible and insignificant and rejected but my mother demanded that the facade was kept up. I guess it was the facade to the rest of the family that she was really acting like a parent when she wasn't. The "everything is okay facade".
IT really was a lie. So I look back and I talk to my inner teenager and I say: "Yeah, you were right all along"

[Meh]

I get the bouncing screen thing at the bottom of my box so I'm making lots of entries here.

So if one is the target of Narcissism by their FOO. Does that mean that one does not develop a healthy Narcissism.

I mean I have thought: "Well if Narcissism works well for them, maybe I should try to be more Narcissistic."
To me this just means like being more aggressively selfish or something. Like being less socially polite-like trying to be more manipulative and dishonest.

It strikes me that the few times I have actually been dishonest to my mother it stands out in my mind as a very purposeful decision. I have rarely been dishonest to her. When I have told her personal things she tells her husband and the rest of the family...she then comes back to me and tells me that she has told everybody and she laughs like it's a joke. So she has also discouraged me from confiding in her--and I think that is pretty weird between a mother and daughter.

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Star - are you thinking of the pathological caretaking personality? The one that "needs to be needed"... by an N - because that's the ONLY interaction/attention allowed in that relationship? This is part & parcel of the co-dependent style of relating. (you don't really strike me as the co-dependent type*...)

Or are you thinking about the FOO scapegoat role?

A couple more styles of so-called "coping" with that kind of emotional abuse come to mind, too... but these are the closest to what it sounds like (to me) that you're trying to the right "word" for...

* and I guess there is a lot of variation in co-dependence... because I think self-sabotage is one way some folks react to Ns -- living "down to" what they've always been told - and felt about themselves - that FOO relationship. This seems like co-dependence to me, because it's one way we pretzel ourselves into being something we're really not -- so that we can belong.  That's the generalized "we" there... professor-crap-speak again.

[sKePTiKal]

me again.

You mentioned something about Healthy Narcissism and I forgot I want to explore that a little more. I've wondered for a looong time, what the difference was, where the line is... precisely because of the guilty, it's kinda "bad" to "be like them" feeling you mentioned. But since I've also kinda branched out into social science in my reading this also applies there, too. There's Dr G's thread about Facebook and the online personas that people develop for themselves. There's my getting out and into 3-D social situations and my experiences (good/bad) with that.

I'm kinda thinking now, that HealthyN = self-respect, self-care, and that dreaded fuzzy word: self-esteem.

I know I struggled with working on all of those, precisely because I had suffered the direct emotional effects of being in a relationship with Nparents who didn't have a healthy sense of N. And I'm sure I overdid it (healthyN) and went to the other extreme sometimes, while trying to figure out for myself where that "line" was between healthy/unhealthy. Here's my current working idea of how to figure out where that line is:  healthyN has boundaries. Interpersonal boundaries are absolutely essential to having any kind of CO-munication or relationship... because there has to be a distinct "me" and a distinct, separate "you".

So, to develop that first definition a little more:


HealthyN = self-respect, self-care, and that dreaded fuzzy word: self-esteem UNTIL it ceases to recognize that other people are allowed to have this also and that the relationship between the two people isn't competitive - one better than the other or healthier than the other - even when they disagree in thoughts, emotions or beliefs. There is an unspoken understanding - maybe it's even an empathetic understanding - that it's perfectly OK to disagree, believe different things and that one doesn't reject the other person (or try to coerce them to be the "same")... there is mutual respect, mutual care - they could be best friends! - and mutual esteem. the PD-level N's can't participate at that level - it's so threatening to their self-image they simply can't allow this. Even when the pretend they are.

The way this relates to social science for me, is in watching politics - local, state, national and global. But that's way off topic here.

[getnbtr]

Ahhh, as weird as it sounds, it's always reassuring to come here and KNOW there are folks experiencing what I am experiencing. I get so worn out from hearing the same questions repeated over and over...
my NH is always waiting for the "yes" instead of the "no". If I tell him the answer is STILL "no", he gets angry and wants to know why I can't communicate with HIM. Knowing this board is here makes things a little less nuts for me. No one else could possibly understand these things without having an N in their lives.

NMOMs are the worst for sure, when you are the scape goat anyway, I used to think it would be great to be the golden child until I realized my siblings were as out of touch with themselves as she was. They seem to be repeating her in some way with themselves and their children. My NM would also use what I confided in her to devalue me to anyone she could get to listen to her...it was heart breaking for me and had to confuse my siblings.

Does anyone else answer their N's questions, only to have them say you didn't tell them about whatever the conversation involved. My NH holds the same conversations with me over and over. The subject usually involves him SEEMING interested in the kids or me and it doesn't involve HIM.
   
Does your N make a big deal out of promising you something and talk it to death and NEVER do it?
These are the things that bother me the most. He pretends or doesn't remember anything about it if I mention the fact that we have had this conversations on MANY occasions. Then...I need to pay for bringing THAT up.

Both my NM (did) and NH (does) tell me how I feel too. The worst of it is when they tell other people in my life that I feel the way they "think", or more like pretend I feel. So many times I have heard from other people how "I" feel according to them because of what my N has told them, my N sure does spend an abundant amount of time convincing others of non-truths. So you know it's not an accident. He doesn't spend much time telling the truth, that's for sure. I find my NH talking to himself way too much too, like he's convincing himself of the lies he tells himself. He has managed to come between me and our children so often they don't believe what he tells them anymore. At one time they did and it was like he threw us into HELL...it took some time to straiten it out. Thankfully his story kept changing as to what he "really" meant, after a while it went to he couldn't remember. Then, The almighty....never happened.






I didn't get a chance to read all of the post here, I will when I have more time. Thanks for letting me vent! AND, thanks for understanding. <3

[Meh]

Hey Star - are you thinking of the pathological caretaking personality? The one that "needs to be needed"... by an N - because that's the ONLY interaction/attention allowed in that relationship? This is part & parcel of the codependent style of relating. (you don't really strike me as the codependent type*...)

Hum, actually I don't know, but thank you for the possible suggestions of what it could be. It was mentioned by somebody on the board at one point that Nar people do attract or trigger other PD people but it wasn't stated. Or that Nar parents tend to raise Nar children or an alternative type and it could be like what you are saying above the pathological caretaking personality "needs to be needed".    

Certainly I was thinking something self-depricating and sort of an "I'm not worthy" personality.

[Meh]

What is a person who doesnt have healthy Narcissism? Is that "over sensitive"?

[sKePTiKal]

I'm sorry I couldn't remember that piece of info you were looking for. I'm sure you're right tho - there is a sort of "plug & play" personality for Ns. I think I just remembered my own version of it.   

As to your other question - I still don't feel like I have a good enough grasp of what HealthyN is. Getting there - getting clearer - but not to where I feel like I could guide someone else. Maybe that's the case for most people - it's a day to day thing - better some days; not so good on others.

But as for the "over-sensitive" moniker? That's usually just a nasty name-calling putdown to someone who DARES have real human feelings... from someone who wouldn't know what a real feeling was, if it smacked them in the face. People with healthy N have plenty of feelings - about themselves, and also about and for others. That kind of thing infuriates Ns... or requires a putdown, so that the N can feel better about him or herself. It's the only way they can.

[Meh]

Thats okay P.   

So if a person trys to be Narcissistic is that the same as growing up a "healthy Narcissist"?

Narcissism is somthing that *we*/ or one is not aware of though right?

What does a Narcissist brain look like? What are Narcissists doing to other's brains?

How is Narcissism any different than plain old dominance and competition?

[sKePTiKal]

So if a person trys to be Narcissistic is that the same as growing up a "healthy Narcissist"?

Probably NOT. Not totally sure what you mean here, but if we swap in "self-interest" for "Narcissist"... it makes a little more sense to me.

I think the term you're looking for is "healthy Narcissism"... not "narcissist". "Healthy Narcissism" is just one trait or personality characteristic of a self (and I didn't get this until I changed the word to "self-interest").  Not sure there are any healthy Narcissists. Technically speaking, if one qualifies for the PD label, one is by default, not healthy. Other people might have a different definition. That's OK by me... this works for me, right now... and there might very well be something better out there.

Narcissism is somthing that *we*/ or one is not aware of though right?

If you mean, about ourselves - that might be one way to tell someone with healthyN apart from the malevolent kind; N's - in my experience - have almost NO self-awareness in the area of how they impact others - and you point it out to them, at your own risk. Coming out of my self-fog, I discovered I was overly-obsessively- concerned with how I impacted others... and I didn't accept the premise that it was OK for me to look out for myself, nurture myself, take care of myself, have a self-interest to protect. Once I did, like a teenager in a growth spurt, I was kind awkward and gawky - LOL! Flailed around a lot and went too far to the other extreme for my own comfort a couple of times, requiring apologies... and lord knows I bemoaned the difficulty of finding my "comfort zone", here, a lot! That wasn't real dignified in someone who was about 50, but it was important for me to figure it out. It DOES settle down to what's normal for yourself... and because "normal" is a range and not a specific mark on a target... it also varies from day to day, life stage to life stage. I suppose one might consider that the "normal" learning process - trial & error - of developing healthy N... and it doesn't really matter what age one learns this, tho' it's like learning a language - probably much easier at younger age.

What does a Narcissist brain look like? What are Narcissists doing to other's brains?

HMMM. I don't think anyone's studied this exact set of questions. As to the latter question (again, my thoughts are) that growing up w/N in a parent - while the brain is developing, influences certain kinds of brain-neurotransmitter connections... what we usually call mental/emotional "habits" - those habitual thoughts that generate the same old feelings... and even affect one's behavior. It is possible to change those habits - it's a lotta work. That's one reason I decided to celebrate even the micro-successes I could think up... it was the only way to keep myself going up the change-curve and not give up in exhaustion & frustration, until I could see myself at a plateau of change. That plateau was built of things of like: not smoking each & every time hubs did (pavlovian chameleon type things)... brushing my teeth twice a day until it felt weird to NOT brush before going to bed... to shake up and re-create my self-care and self-soothing strategies... and to loosen the "set in stone" nature of those brain connections that a person can't directly "edit" or repair or "put right".

How is Narcissism any different than plain old dominance and competition?

See the self-awareness observation, in the second question. Also, I think normal folks have some limits and boundaries regarding dominance and competition. Taking turns, not "needing" to dominate all the time... not needing to always "win" in order to have fun, feel good about oneself, etc. Letting other make "the rules" and switching roles constructively... all of which recognizes that "other people" are equally significant and real human beings - not simply objects to prop up an Nself. A non-N's self-respect and self-care and emotional state doesn't completely depend on the approval, respect and adulation of other people. The non-N isn't completely self-sufficient, either - they still have needs for emotional and social interaction with other people. But how the non-N thinks/sees/feels about him or herself doesn't hinge completely on their "outer" image - how others see/feel/thinks about him or her. (THAT was circular... there has to be an easier way to say that.)


Of course - these are just my thoughts & observations & experiences and not a definitive, expert opinion. Sometimes, the expert opinions don't give enough credit to people's actual experiences, but then actual experiences are one-off, subjective anecdotes and aren't one size fits all. Both are important in their own way. The next person along, can expand on my ideas, I'm sure. In the meantime, I hope this helps.

[SilverLining]

What is a person who doesnt have healthy Narcissism? Is that "over sensitive"?

There is an issue related to sensitivity.   In order to survive in the N environment, we may have had to be overly sensitive to the needs of the N's.   So we develop an acute sensitivity to needs of others in general.  And then we may not develop the "healthy narcissism" to understand that their excessive needs aren't our problem. 

 I believe I've suffered much from this dynamic.  The FOO learned how to play on my sensitivity to their needs.   In effect, I made their problems my problems.   But in later years I'm recognizing  it's healthy to get somewhat "narcissistic" and learn to put them out of my head.    Physically they are a long way away, but I'm still working on the internal process. 

I've also wondered a lot about the narcissistic brain.   With the new scanning technology some interesting studies could be done.  After many years of FOO observation, I'm sure there are some distinct patterns to Nish mental processing. For instance,  my father automatically opposes nearly any input from another person.  And he does it so fast it seems to an unconscious reflex.   It's as if he's actually wired to make other voiceless.     

   

[sKePTiKal]

There is an issue related to sensitivity.   In order to survive in the N environment, we may have had to be overly sensitive to the needs of the N's.   So we develop an acute sensitivity to needs of others in general.  And then we may not develop the "healthy narcissism" to understand that their excessive needs aren't our problem. 

VERY good point, SL - and well put, too.

[gratitude28]

Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person.  Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her").  It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.'  Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.

I never though of this, but this is exactly what NM does.
Also, Salsa, our conversations are the same all the time. She insists I like things I don't like. She never listens to what I say or overrides what I say with her own beliefs and ideas. So talking to NM is pointless and I try to avoid it as much as possible. I love this thread! Very helpful!
Beth