Why do we feel so guilty over NC?

[JustKathy]

I say "we" in the title because I just have this feeling that most of us feel some level of guilt over this.

Let me start by saying that I never felt the slightest bit of guilt over going NC with my NMother. She was so wicked, so evil, and committed such acts of cruelty against me that I never felt anything but unburdened. But going NC with my Co-father has been a different struggle, and I'm trying to come to grips with the reasons why I feel so darned guilty. I just want to stop having doubts, and stop questioning myself. I don't know how to move forward.

I spent the better part of 40 years making excuses for the man, telling myself that he really did love me, but that he was brainwashed by NM. At one point I managed to convince myself that he was mentally retarded, in a Forrest Gump "simpleton" kind of way. After all, he never ever engaged in any serious conversation, just nodded his head in agreement or dismissed serious problems with the usual, "Oh well, you know. La la la. Yup, you know."

In the last year, since our move, he has continued to send cards and letters to an address that he has never verified as mine. The only proof NM has is finding two names that matched ours on public record as buying this house. But we were unable to sell our old house in AZ and have kept it as a rental, so our names are still attached to that property too. The thing that set off NM's online search was me unplugging the phone line, something we were planning on doing anyway since we now use our cells as our primary phones. Today another card came, this one a birthday card for my husband, again with a note saying he hopes to see us soon. I don't want to see him. I don't want to talk to him. Yet I still feel sorry for him.

In the year since going NC, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the things he did, and in looking back, they were a million times worse than I ever allowed myself to believe them to be. I always made excuses for him, I always forgave him. But lately I spend a lot of time reliving the punishments he inflicted on me when I was in high school because NM told him I was on drugs, failing in school, sleeping with boys, all things I never did. I spent three years crying and pleading with him to please believe me, and he never did. Not even the benefit of a doubt. No wiggle room. I was the "bad seed." Mother said so. When I was homeless and starving on the streets he wouldn't even give me a $20 bill for food because "Your mother says I can't help you." My God, I could have been raped or murdered out there, a vulnerable girl who was more naive than most, thanks to NM's attempts at sheltering me and trying to force me to remain in a state of arrested development.

Long story short, after a year of throwing the cards and letters away, I want to start returning them, marked: RETURN TO SENDER, NOT AT THIS ADDRESS. He deserves it. He really does. In fact, I'm sure he knows that he deserves it. And still, I hate myself for being cruel to my abusers. He abused ME, and I hate myself for hurting him.

How do you all cope? Or do you? Are we all destined to a life of guilt? Is this the trade-off for going NC. If it is, it seems that we'll never be free. They'll always have a hold on us.

Kathy

[Twoapenny]

Kathy, it's a toughie and I feel for you.  I struggled with this sort of thing for a really long time.  I've got to a point now where I don't feel guilty and the only reason I can think that is (other than time simply being a healer!) is that I have finally managed to separate myself from my parents and no longer feel responsible for their feelings and emotions.  I was raised - I think we all were - believing that their happiness was my responsibility and knowing only too well which misdemeanours would make them unhappy.  This was a very bad thing and my punishment for displeasing them was days of the silent treatment and generally being made to feel like something they'd stepped in.

I think, for me, I just kept plugging away at reasoning it out with myself and eventually it - they - stopped being part of my life and my responsibiliity.  I suppose, when young, it is easier to cope with one parent's abusive behaviour if we convince ourselves that another parent is okay.  Figuring out later on that isn't the case is tough, along with coping with knowing that, by withdrawing we are effectively cutting off their 'source' and that will hurt them, although in a way that is different to most people being hurt.  By that I mean most people aren't abusive and so we don't need to cut off contact with them in order to be healthy ourselves.
I think the key thing for me when I read your post was your remark that you "hate yourself for being cruel to my abusers".  I think I'd work on that.  Deciding to stop a person abusing you isn't an act of cruelty on your part.  Logically you know that, but I think the little child part of us still feels that it is up to us to make them happy by taking whatever they give out.  I think that's the bit I'd try and work on.  One exercise I've found useful was writing to my inner child, as an adult.  Basically you write to them talking about what you know they've been through, validating it, explaining, as you would to a child, why it was wrong for people to do x/y/z to them, why it's okay to say no, keep yourself safe etc, and then reassuring them that you're there for them, you'll keep them safe now, they don't have to do x again or see y or speak to z.

Something else you could think about, if you haven't done it before, is writing an honest letter to you dad, telling him about the various things that went on, how you feel about them now and that you are trying to come to terms with it and move on with your life and for that reason you don't want to be in touch with him.  I've written lots of letters like that, in the early days I used to send them, these days I keep them to myself.

I suppose the thing that is difficult for us is to put ourselves first and think about how we feel, rather than how they feel.  Another skill that takes practise, I guess?

Keep plugging away.  Keep telling yourself what you know to be true - it's not only okay, it's essential not to be in unhealthy relationships, whoever they are with and for whatever reason.  Maybe you can keep a list of all the reasons you don't want to be in contact with him and read it every time you feel guilty (you might find it in your hand constantly!).  If it's any help, I don't think that you have any reason to feel guilty at all.  You deserve a good life, a happy life.  Working through what happened is part of that.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Kathy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[BonesMS]

((((((((((((((((((((((((Kathy))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Hopalong]

If you do write him, perhaps just tell him this:

I always made excuses for you, I always forgave you. But lately I spend a lot of time reliving the punishments you inflicted on me when I was in high school because my mother told you I was on drugs, failing in school, sleeping with boys, all things I never did. I spent three years crying and pleading with you to please believe me, and you never did. Not even the benefit of a doubt. No wiggle room. I was the "bad seed." Mother said so. When I was homeless and starving on the streets you wouldn't even give me a $20 bill for food because, "Your mother says I can't help you." My God, I could have been raped or murdered out there, a vulnerable girl who was more naive than most.

You could tell him that though you forgive him and wish him peace, contact is too painful for you because he's never acknowledged your need to be believed and cared about. And that's why.

You could suggest to him too that he visit a counselor or pastor, and take your letter with him. And that if they can help him find a way to respond appropriately to you to help heal the past, things could be different. But without that, though you forgive, you are not able for your own health's sake, to be in contact.

That would give him a plain, reality-based opportunity to see if he can repair things enough to be able to hear something from you, some day.

Unlikely, I know. And if you don't want to do that, I don't think you have to. But if you do, if you think it would resolve that sorrow--it does offer your father a chance to atone, to whatever degree he is capable of. And you're giving him truth in a merciful way.

hugs
Hops

[ann3]

And still, I hate myself for being cruel to my abusers. He abused ME, and I hate myself for hurting him.

Kathy,
You can think/express your feelings about how EF treated you without being cruel.  "Being cruel" is not a necessary result.  I'm guessing what you really feel and want to express is the pain & hurt you felt (& still feel).  Perhaps you fear that if you expressed that pain, the truth of your feelings could be perceived as being cruel.  But, being cruel is not your intention.  However, if the other person perceives it as such, you have no control over that.  

[JustKathy]

Wow, thank you everyone for your amazing insight and words of wisdom. For all the years I've spent on a therapist's couch, I've yet to speak to a mental health professional who "gets it" the way another N victim does.

The idea of writing a letter is a good one. I'd like to do that, just to close the book, and let him know how I feel. The problem is that I see him reading it, but not comprehending it. I have tried SO many times to tell him how I feel, and all I've ever gotten was the "simpleton" routine of babbling and changing the subject to mindless chit-chat. When that failed, my husband made several attempts at getting through to him to no avail. When I was disinherited, Co-F kept saying that it was no big deal because they had no money left. Hubby told him straight up, "She doesn't want your money, she wants your LOVE." The response was something about needing to wash his car.

The last conversation I had with him was when he told me he had given the GC a treasured family heirloom that had been promised to me, done to please NM, who did it to spite me. I broke down in tears and started having chest pains. Hubby took the phone from me and told my father, "Can't you hear her? Can't you hear what you've done. She's in PAIN." Again, F started chanting "la la la la can't hear you," and proceeded to talk about his tomato garden while I cried and screamed in the background. That was last phone call we ever took from him.

I guess it can't hurt to write the letter and hold onto it. At the very least, it might be a healing experience for me to put my feelings onto paper. If I were to send it, it would be after NM dies (that is, if she really is dying of cancer, something that still seems rather suspect). I just don't know if he'll ever truly get it, or if he even cares if he hurt me. He HAS to know that he did. I think what matters to him, is that he gave 110% to his Queen, and to his Golden Child, and anyone who fell through the cracks, oh well, that's life. He took care of what was important to him. I just wasn't one of those things.

[JustKathy]

Oh, I should probably explain my reasons for not sending a letter while NM is still alive.

1. She brings in the mail, and goes through everything. She'll make sure that he never sees the letter.

2. If by some chance he DOES get the letter, he'll immediately show her because he's hard wired to report everything to her. I can't begin to imagine what she'd do at that point, but it would be BAD. It's just best for everyone if that kind of contact not happen while she's still breathing.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Kathy,

I can really identify with what you're saying.  I think I finally got to a stage with my mum where I don't expect her to behave like a 'normal' person would and for some reason that makes it easier to deal with.  The only way I can think of explaining it is by comparing her to my son, who is autistic.  His brain is wired differently, so there are things that he just can't do - his brain doesn't allow him to do them.  I think it's probably the same with some of this stuff - their brains are wired in such a way that some things just can't happen.  They can't see how bad they make you feel or accept or acknowledge it - their brains just can't process that and do something useful with it.  Over the years that has sunk into my head more and more and I've found myself at a point now where I feel I 'get' that they won't get it!

Writing letters has always helped me, it's just good to get it out of your system and down on paper.  Keep writing them, you can write every day, especially if you aren't going to send them.  I found I made the most progress when I started focussing on what was good for me, what I needed to do to help myself instead of thinking about everyone else.  There are times when all I want to do is curl up on the sofa with a bar of chocolate and a crap film or a gossip magazine.  There was a time when I wouldn't have allowed myself anything like that, now I think it's okay if, for some reason, I need that from time to time so I do it and I don't worry about what anyone else thinks of it.  I honestly think it gets easier eventually. xx

[gratitude28]

Kathy,
As I read your letter, I see my father. He was much better than yours... he shut his eyes to a lot, but stepped in when necessary. I still get very angry when I think of how he pretends and puts his head in the sand. Reading your post, I do feel bad for your dad in a sense. He must be lonely in the world he chose. But I feel more for you and what you went through. In my case, I had my father to refute what my mother said about me - you did not. That is beyond weak - that put you in harm's way. Sending you love and strength - you need them both and you need to know what you are doing is right for your family. I wish I could take away the guilt for you. I think, sometimes, we are programmed for guilt because we are good people and we feel...
Love, Beth

[JustKathy]

Thanks everyone. Twoapenny, I think your comparison to your autistic son is a very good one. In the case of a Co-Father, I tend to think that they're born with "normal" brains, so to speak, but somewhere along the line something in that brain becomes detached and stops functioning normally. While an N is born with a mental illness, the Co parent, I believe, learns the behavior (though they may be born with it, I don't know). My feeling is that at some point they shut down, because they simply don't know what else to do. In Beth's case, her Co-F retained enough of his identity that he was still able to interfere, but for many, they seem to revert to an almost adolescent state because they just don't how to react to the situation they've been placed in. My father handled it in in a very childlike way, by rocking back and forth, pretending he couldn't hear or see. My NM did his thinking for him. He seemed unable to process his own thoughts. He had one goal in life, and that was to please his queen and his "namesake," the GC. There were no independent thoughts to detract from that one very focused goal.

This morning I actually opened the card he sent to my husband and read it. The greeting said, "Dear Dave. Hope you have a happy birthday. Sure would be nice if you would bother to call us sometime." Wow. My first thought was crap, how nasty can you be (similarly, my birthday card basically said, "Happy Birthday, your mother is dying"). My second thought was that it sounded too aggressive hor him, and that NM had probably told him to write that. My third thought was more of a reaction than a thought. "Gee dad, it sure would have been nice if you had BOTHERED to stand up for your daughter, or BOTHERED to show up to my high school graduation, or BOTHERED to acknowledge the MBA that I spent years struggling to earn, or BOTHERED to include me in your will, even if you had left me nothing but a box of match sticks."

I just don't how to handle this situation with these letters and gifts, which will never stop coming. What would you guys do? Would you allow them to keep coming, or send them back marked Not at This Address, Return to Sender. I feel SO horribly violated, that NM jumped to the conclusion that we moved without telling them, and that she went to the trouble to stalk me, track me down, and rub in my face that she found me. Another five months from now will mean another Christmas Box of Doom, and I don't want anymore of them coming. I want these people removed from my life. I'll never be able to remove them from my thoughts, but I'm sick of the constant reminders. That IS the reason that these cards and letters are being sent. NM wants to be sure that I am constantly reminded that I can't run from her. "I Will NOT be ignored."

[BonesMS]

Thanks everyone. Twoapenny, I think your comparison to your autistic son is a very good one. In the case of a Co-Father, I tend to think that they're born with "normal" brains, so to speak, but somewhere along the line something in that brain becomes detached and stops functioning normally. While an N is born with a mental illness, the Co parent, I believe, learns the behavior (though they may be born with it, I don't know). My feeling is that at some point they shut down, because they simply don't know what else to do. In Beth's case, her Co-F retained enough of his identity that he was still able to interfere, but for many, they seem to revert to an almost adolescent state because they just don't how to react to the situation they've been placed in. My father handled it in in a very childlike way, by rocking back and forth, pretending he couldn't hear or see. My NM did his thinking for him. He seemed unable to process his own thoughts. He had one goal in life, and that was to please his queen and his "namesake," the GC. There were no independent thoughts to detract from that one very focused goal.

This morning I actually opened the card he sent to my husband and read it. The greeting said, "Dear Dave. Hope you have a happy birthday. Sure would be nice if you would bother to call us sometime." Wow. My first thought was crap, how nasty can you be (similarly, my birthday card basically said, "Happy Birthday, your mother is dying"). My second thought was that it sounded too aggressive hor him, and that NM had probably told him to write that. My third thought was more of a reaction than a thought. "Gee dad, it sure would have been nice if you had BOTHERED to stand up for your daughter, or BOTHERED to show up to my high school graduation, or BOTHERED to acknowledge the MBA that I spent years struggling to earn, or BOTHERED to include me in your will, even if you had left me nothing but a box of match sticks."

I just don't how to handle this situation with these letters and gifts, which will never stop coming. What would you guys do? Would you allow them to keep coming, or send them back marked Not at This Address, Return to Sender. I feel SO horribly violated, that NM jumped to the conclusion that we moved without telling them, and that she went to the trouble to stalk me, track me down, and rub in my face that she found me. Another five months from now will mean another Christmas Box of Doom, and I don't want anymore of them coming. I want these people removed from my life. I'll never be able to remove them from my thoughts, but I'm sick of the constant reminders. That IS the reason that these cards and letters are being sent. NM wants to be sure that I am constantly reminded that I can't run from her. "I Will NOT be ignored."

Hi, Kathy.

If I may make a suggestion or two.......

I would make a ritual of BURNING the unwanted cards and use the outdoor grill to do so.  Cook some hot dogs and/or hamburgers while you're at it and have a backyard BBQ with some friends.  When other unwanted mail show up, have a friend of yours write on it, "NOT AT THIS ADDRESS, RETURN TO SENDER".  That way, the handwriting can't be easily recognized.

As for the Box of Doom, either have the same friend write on the box, "NOT AT THIS ADDRESS, RETURN TO SENDER" or simply give the box to the Salvation Army or Good Will for a tax write off.  Let the NBitch get her own knickers in a twist when she gets NO response from you or Hubs.  If she knows she's getting under your skin, she will continue her malicious torture because she's getting self-gratification from it.  I can understand the feeling of violation because, in a sense, (if I may be so blunt), this is her form of masturbation and using you as her object to get her rocks off.  Let her find some other way for her to go screw herself without using you or hubs.  (Maybe send her to Sigmund Freud.)

[JustKathy]

Thanks Bones. I appreciate the bluntless. You're absolutely right!

Right now she thinks that we're getting the letters because she has no proof that we aren't (no proof that we ARE, but also, no proof that we aren't). I've destroyed all of the checks, so none have been cashed. Logic would tell a normal person that they have the wrong address, but we aren't dealing with a normal person. I'd really like to return the latest letter and leave her wondering what became of all the stuff she's been sending. Since she's convinced herself that we've moved, returning the letters might send her on another investigate search, which will be a wild goose chase since there are hundreds of people in CA alone with the exact same name as me. Maybe some other Kathy will receive a box of gift cards, socks, and snarky notes this Christmas.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Kathy,

First of all I asked my mum to stop writing/contacting us.  She carried on.  Then I just ignored it all and she still carried on.  Then I wrote to her threatening to take out an injunction against her (after speaking to a solicitor) - at which point she stopped for the most part, although she still does things like sending my son a letter from Father Christmas (in the UK there are firms you can pay to send letters to children from Santa - she gets hers done through a charity that is supposed to prevent cruelty to children, which is ironic given the damage she did to us and the fact that her husband molests them, but there we are).  It might be worth talking to a solicitor about it.  The advice I was given was to write specifically stating that I wanted all contact to stop and listing the different ways it was occuring.  In the UK it doesn't have to be nasty or viscious to be considered harrassment; if you've made it clear you don't want it and it carries on then there are things that can be done, although you generally have to pay for the legal action yourself if it doesn't include violence.  Obviously laws are different in different places but it might be worth checking it out in your area and seeing what they suggest.  During my ignoring phase I was just throwing things away without opening them; I didn't want to read whatever nonsense she'd written but, like you, it used to upset every birthday and Christmas and I'd dread the post coming.  I found that having any kind of contact with her - even if just to tell her I didn't want contact - kind of fed her, whereas ignoring her completely cut off her supply.  So perhaps check out legal options and see if anything there is useful - if not maybe write once saying don't contact me again and if they keep coming throw them straight in the bin (take them to a public bin so you aren't tempted to open them a couple of days later!) and if she sends a Christmas box just take it straight to your nearest food bank/homeless shelter or just give it to someone who's on their own and might appreciate some extras at that time of year - if she's going to be irritating it might help to change her annoyingness into something good for someone else.  Take time to think through your options and see what feels best.  Remember to focus on you and what you want - not how she might react/respond to what you do.  Keep thinking me, me, me!

[BonesMS]

Hi Kathy,

First of all I asked my mum to stop writing/contacting us.  She carried on.  Then I just ignored it all and she still carried on.  Then I wrote to her threatening to take out an injunction against her (after speaking to a solicitor) - at which point she stopped for the most part, although she still does things like sending my son a letter from Father Christmas (in the UK there are firms you can pay to send letters to children from Santa - she gets hers done through a charity that is supposed to prevent cruelty to children, which is ironic given the damage she did to us and the fact that her husband molests them, but there we are).  It might be worth talking to a solicitor about it.  The advice I was given was to write specifically stating that I wanted all contact to stop and listing the different ways it was occuring.  In the UK it doesn't have to be nasty or viscious to be considered harrassment; if you've made it clear you don't want it and it carries on then there are things that can be done, although you generally have to pay for the legal action yourself if it doesn't include violence.  Obviously laws are different in different places but it might be worth checking it out in your area and seeing what they suggest.  During my ignoring phase I was just throwing things away without opening them; I didn't want to read whatever nonsense she'd written but, like you, it used to upset every birthday and Christmas and I'd dread the post coming.  I found that having any kind of contact with her - even if just to tell her I didn't want contact - kind of fed her, whereas ignoring her completely cut off her supply.  So perhaps check out legal options and see if anything there is useful - if not maybe write once saying don't contact me again and if they keep coming throw them straight in the bin (take them to a public bin so you aren't tempted to open them a couple of days later!) and if she sends a Christmas box just take it straight to your nearest food bank/homeless shelter or just give it to someone who's on their own and might appreciate some extras at that time of year - if she's going to be irritating it might help to change her annoyingness into something good for someone else.  Take time to think through your options and see what feels best.  Remember to focus on you and what you want - not how she might react/respond to what you do.  Keep thinking me, me, me!

I concur with Tup!

[sKePTiKal]

Kathy... ((((((hugs)))))...

My mom used to send boxes & boxes of stuff and for the longest time it would enrage me or feel as tho' she was so into projecting herself onto me (an emotional pin the PD on the ass game)... I yelled at her when I received things I'd already said I didn't want... took unopened boxes right to the landfill as if it were toxic waste...

Somehow - one day it started to feel like, "OH. There's a another box o' crap from mom. More junk to throw away. OK."  And then, weirdly enough -- she stopped sending them. Don't ask me, how they "do that"... but it was what I wanted... so I never said a word about it to rock the boat.

It took me a long time to realize that the boxes that arrived were just boxes... full of "stuff" (and some of it was pure junk...)... and that this stuff was as emotionally neutral as a box of rocks. And since for the longest time Mom wouldn't listen to me, understand that my house was stuffed to the gills, I didn't want/need any more STUFF - no matter whose it was - and she thought/believed/that her version of who I am would want this stuff - because she DOESN'T know me... only her crazy, made up version of me... which is more her than me...

since I wasn't ever going to be able to show her the real ME... and I was done trying to get her see me, in any case... all that emotional reaction, all those feelings, rage, grief, frustration (why won't she just leave me alone???!).... kept me locked into that power struggle, battle of life and death, my autonomy versus her "moms are forever; you're forever who I say you are" circle of hell. Once the emotions were burned out and a box was just a box - and nothing more - I found out I was free. Because no matter what she did, tried to do... I didn't get upset anymore -- it was just mom - some wack old lady with delusions, she has no fangs, she can't ruin my life anymore, or make me feel like shit... because emotionally I didn't take the bait, jump into the game by being outraged or hurt or whatever. (I still have to watch myself carefully though - it's easy to "forget" that lesson.)

Since that point, even the phone calls have gotten more spaced out - and I guess I mean that both ways, LOL! She calls less frequently and while there's still the same old broken record monologue... there's a bit more bizarro, wacked out crazy in her "presentation". And I only answer when I feel like it; feel up to it, now... which makes a huge difference for me.

But the whole point of this "story", is that the KEY to getting where the cards & letters - unbidden; unwanted; the symbol of relationship you don't acknowledge - don't bother you... is to have the feeling that they don't bother you. HOW one does that... well, I think that HOW is different for each and every one of us. My journey wouldn't help you figure out your own. But maybe knowing there is a point to get to, you'll find your way. (And it's only one point... there are others.)