Knew this would happen. Really need advice...

[KayZee]

Thank you so much, Tup,

And belated happy B-day... I can totally relate to the sharp loneliness of having no family.  I've felt that way for years now, despite occasional contact with NM and even less than that with GC sister. 

But I'd still rather have my health, my sanity and know my son isn't growing up with this craziness around him than put up with her bizarre behaviour so that I can avoid feeling like no-one loves me. 

  I can't thank you enough for this insight.  I never realized it before, but I think that's the reason I've avoided this confrontation for so long.  Because I wanted to put off feeling that loneliness; I convinced myself that some family contact (no matter how one-sided and abusive) was better than no family ties.  But it's not better.  Anything is better than this.  I'm reaching my breaking point where something's got to change.  Maybe love of my kids and life I've built with DH outweighs lifelong fear of NM.

Anyway, you've for sure got family on this board.  And give me a holler anytime you're feeling lonely...

Kay x

[KayZee]

Refuse to get my brain battered by this...  NM finally responded via email after a week's sulking.  And I don't even know where to begin about her message.  Well, for a start, a normal person would have apologized for the intrusion...but NM is far from normal, so whatever.  The whole thing is peppered with phony exclamation points and everything she's put in quotation marks are not thing's I've said!  (Will include my original letter in a subsequent post.)  All the name calling and weirdness ("monster," "supervised visits," "put up with") are total projections, aggressive words she's trying to put in my mouth.  No doubt, she's already called up the rest of the family and told them that's what I've said to her:

Dear Kay,

We are back from the weekend wedding and I am ready to respond.  Dad and I will be responding separately.

It causes me great sadness to think that communicating or being  with me can cause you such distress.   I cannot bear the thought that I may, in anyway,  be affecting your health or well being!  I think that we can both agree that our relationship since X or maybe even sometime before, has been superficial at best.  We haven't had a real conversation in years.  Whether we are visiting your home or you all come here, a cloud always seems to hover.  Many issues that were brought up in X, I have tried to thoughtfully consider but I always feel that I come up short.  Any interaction seems to be controlled - communicating via text messaging only.  Every time I telephone, it goes directly to voice mail.  It all just seems more than 'boundaries' - it feels like a concerted effort to keep me at arms length.  However, that being said, I will not allow you to use this as a means to 'discontinue our relationship'!  I will adhere to your demands - because they come across more as demands than wishes!  I do not feel comfortable contacting you in anyway so I will wait to hear from you in the future.

Concerning the children - I thoroughly enjoy being around them!  They are fantastic and I shouldn't be made to feel guilty because I want to see them!  That brings up another issue that has been bothering me.  Every time I see them I feel like it's some kind of 'supervised visitation'.  Are you afraid to leave them alone with me?  Am I really a monster when it comes to children?

I need to address one more issue.  I will never again overstep when it comes to the boundaries you have put in place.  However, I insist that I be treated with the same level of respect that you afford your neighbors, Barbara, your aunt, or the in-laws.  Your demeanor towards me is disrespectful.  Someone you have to 'put up with'?  I wish for us a real relationship in the future, not one that is forced.

Ugh... she's so sickening.  Like she wants a "real" relationship.  She wants a phony "relationship" whereby I never say no to her and let her be as outrageous and abusive as she wants.  Also, I am seriously creep-ed out by her being so pushy about wanting to be alone with the children.  This does not seem normal to me.  And it makes me wonder what the hell she feels she can't do with them while DH and I are in the same building.

Anyway, I responded with the below.  My only regret is that I put the ball in her court with the last paragraph.  In retrospect, I wish I'd just seized the moment when she said that thing about "not feeling comfortable contacting me" (as if I am the dangerous one); I wish I'd basically told her "don't contact me for a while."  I guess part of me wondered, what the hell does she want from me, anyway?  I know, don't get me wrong.  I know like the good girl she's conditioned me to be, that she wants a relationship where I idolize the bejesus out of her, praise her to high heaven, let her badmouth people to me, stand docile-like while she criticizes me to my face and says weird stuff to my children, let her get her way, let her get away with murder, and let her suck all the air out of every freaking room.  I know that, and I know I'm no longer willing to do that.  But the good girl in me thought, Fine.  Tell me what you want (everything) so I can tell you what I'm prepared to give (next to nothing.) 

Hi there,

Thanks for responding.  You raise a lot of issues here... I want to try to address them.

- You feel hurt if your calls go to voicemail.  Anyone who calls me goes to voicemail.  Usually because I am working (I have my phone off) or because I am busy looking after two children who don't take kindly to me talking on the phone.  I'm sorry that you feel hurt by this.  It's not personal.

- You feel I am "making you feel guilty" for wanting to see the kids.  You are responsible for your feelings.  I've never, ever said I don't want you to see them.  I have said--and continue to say--that it is our choice (DH and me) when and how you see them.  Period.  When you give us little warning or when you "say" you are coming to visit rather than ask for a time that's convenient for everyone, you create a self-fulfilling prophesy...we say "no."

- We only let you have "supervised" visits.  That is our prerogative as their parents.  And we do not make it a habit to leave our kids alone with anyone, that includes you.  I'm sorry if you feel hurt by this.

- That somehow I do not afford you the same "respect" that I give my other friends and family.  They show me and DH respect.  When they want to see us, they get and touch and arrange a good time.  They recognize that we are a family of almost five, with little free time and lots of commitments.  Stating my preferences and personal boundaries is not a disrespectful thing to do.

- My "demeanor" is disrespectful.  I don't quite know what you mean here, as I have not criticized you in any way shape or form.  All the below words "supervised visitation," "monster" and "put up with" have come, not from my mouth, but yours.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

- "Real" versus "forced" relationship.  I think we have two different ideas about the kind of relationship we're aiming for.  I'm not sure how to make them meet in the middle.  Maybe if you tell me the kind of relationship you have in mind, I can tell you the kind that I do and we can work from there.

love, Kay

[Hopalong]

I think that was an impeccable response.
And nothing wrong with the last paragraph, either.

You were reasonable, assertive and courteous. I think it was a very mature response to her response.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Don't nit-pick yourself via the letters, Kay. I think you did great, too.

And ya know what? I also think, in some ways, it's just and righteous to leave the ball in NM's court. You did it calmly, with no aggression or meanness - but got across the message (to those with ears) just how much the responsibility for change is on her shoulders. Accept it or not, put on your big girl panties, Mom. You DID IT, extremely well Kay. YAY!!!!!!

I know you're still looking for the other shoe to drop - so the only thing I saw brewing that might fit into that category is that she is going to use the kids and that all important "grandma card" -- as emotional blackmail. Lots of kids grow up without grandparents -- and turn out just fine because they had good parents. Don't put your kids into a tug of war situation. It's yucky.

The other blackmail tool I've seen used, is the false idea that we automatically "owe" a debt to our mothers for giving birth to us. Right. I'm sure you felt that way about your kids, huh? This one only holds true when we've really BEEN mothered. NMs don't see that part.

IF she changes and recognizes where she was in the wrong; if she learns to accept your limitations and boundaries... then you can reassess the situation with the kids. When kids are older -- when they have their own sense of self, values, good people vs the less-well intentioned -- they can fend for themselves with an N, who doesn't have other more unsavory intentions. Healthy kids aren't as vulnerable as others, for short timeframes of exposure with Ns.

Oh - and I'm stealing your letter!!!!!! (just kidding - hee hee!)

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((KayZee)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

GOOD JOB!!!!  You Go Girl!!!

Bones

[KayZee]

Thank you so much Bones, P.R. and Hops,

I woke up this morning seething, feeling like my head was spinning and NM had worked her crazy-making magic on me again.  Like somehow she'd taken this one firm request (do not show up at my house uninvited) and morphed it into this treacherous list of "demands," fired back at me with numerous accusations that justified her behavior.  But I'm just gonna work through those feelings on my own, journal about it maybe.  Thanks for helping me keep a clear head and maintain some perspective.  It's so easy to get baited and sucked into her nightmare, and let her persuade me that I'm the one who is out of line.

I know you're still looking for the other shoe to drop - so the only thing I saw brewing that might fit into that category is that she is going to use the kids and that all important "grandma card" -- as emotional blackmail. Lots of kids grow up without grandparents -- and turn out just fine because they had good parents. Don't put your kids into a tug of war situation. It's yucky.

 

Thank you so much P.R., for the reminder that it's ok to temporarily come between my kids and NM.  I feel a lot of guilt around that.  And NM's emotional blackmail doesn't help.  I'm with you...I fully expect her to bang on about her "grandparent's rights" until the bitter end.  I can even see her trying to take me to court.  She's initiated the same battle with my ex-brother-in-law too; and each time it's just as weird because no one has ever officially "cut her off" or forbid her from seeing the kids..she just doesn't seem to get that they are real people and our kids not hers.  But the fact remains, she has no fundamental right to see them here in the state of New York.  And she certainly is not entitled to the "unsupervised" visits she suspiciously insists upon (especially when the last time I left NM with my then two-year-old daughter, NM LOST her and left her in serious danger). 

Don't quite know where I'd be without you all to talk to.  Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Kay x

[KayZee]

It continues...

Kay,

I have read many 'words' in your reply but everything you have said stems from (1) unannounced visit.  Or am I missing something here?  Have I crossed the line before and been unaware?

I observe your demeanor towards me as always being angry.  It's body language - even when I'm invited - you are aloof.  Maybe you are not aware, but it is quite obvious to me and others.  If we need to discuss what kind of relationship we are aiming towards - that's a red flag right there!  I would like a loving relationship where we laugh, talk, and enjoy each other's company.  But, at this time, it is very clear to me that any relationship going forward will be mandated by you.  As I stated in my previous email, that's fine with me.  I will not allow you to use my noncompliance as a means of discontinuing our relationship!

NM



My reply...I just don't have the time and energy for this.  These head trips take days to recover from.  It's bad enough that she dumps all her feelings onto me, but then she tries to persuade me that all these nameless other people think I'm horrible too.

Exactly.  I have been trying to address your unannounced visit.  Period.  Nothing more.  You can say I've made "demands," but I've only asked one thing: that you please do not show up here unannounced.

Someone else might say "sorry" or "okay, I understand," but you're firing back with blanket accusations that you feel justify the behavior (the unannounced visit) that I've rightly told you makes me uncomfortable.

Please do not project your anger, emotions or inner conflicts onto me.  I do not feel anger toward you.  I do not expect you to be anything other than what you are.  Please do not drag other people into our conversations nor try to tell me what an unnamed army of "others" think and feel about me; please do not triangulate, inserting yourself into a relationship that I have with other people or inserting them into whatever you are trying to say to me.  I have not: raised my voice at you, called you names, blamed you for anything or done anything else that could be construed as angry or aggressive.

I don't think there's anything abnormal, unhealthy or "red flag" about asking what you feel you're not getting from me, especially when you've expressed unhappiness about our relationship.  To me, this is called emotional intimacy and the first step to compromise.

To be honest, I'm under a deadline and need a bit of a hiatus from this conversation.  I will be in touch if there is anything--an emergency for instance--that you need to know about, and I encourage you to do the same.  But, barring that, I need a break.  I'll be in touch closer to the holidays.

Kay x

[Hopalong]

...and because I think email is a prime weapoN, I'd like to make a wild suggestion.

You could (if it felt right to you) send a brief PS --

Mom, as I plan to take a break from this conversation for now, I won't be reading emails. I will be in touch closer to the holidays.

She does have a controlling, threatening tone. "I will not allow you to use my noncompliance..." -- my ass.

Hops

[KayZee]

That's a very good idea!  Thank you so much, Hops. 

God, I didn't even pick up on that "will not allow you" bit (though her overall aggressive, "I-own-you" vibe always reaches me loud and clear).  I really hope this works and I can fend her off, take a break!

lots of love & gratitude, Kay x

[sKePTiKal]

I read it and let it sit overnight, Kay.

But my first reaction remains -- the longer you DO engage with her, the more opportunity for her to BE aggressive and threatening. You've defined your limits, your boundaries - even offered her a bone, that IF she's serious about repairing the relationship it's a start, but it can't happen right now...

you've got to stop replying, do not respond, and if necessary for you to shift your focus back to your family and YOU... don't even look at her messages.

Don't put a timeline on it. See how you feel after a week. Two weeks. Two months. Moms really shouldn't be looking over our shoulders and running around nagging us about anything -- when we're independent adults. Time for HER to let go, you know?

You control the degree to which she must let go. How she feels about it -- is her responsibility and concern -- and it's healthy N to put your family, and even your feelings before hers. She doesn't doesn't get a say, this time.

Yes, it's work. But truly - it's not hard. Stay engaged with you, your family, your life. That's all positive and will drain some of the yuckies away.

((((((Kay))))))

[Hopalong]

(((KZ)))

I'm sure you already thought it through but if you liked the suggestion,
Step 2 to make it work is to Block Her Email after sending it.

(You can always Unblock it near the holidays or whenever YOU are ready.)

xo
Hops

[KayZee]

Thank you P.R.,

Can't tell you how much I needed to read this right now.  The yucks are so yuckie... 

Of course, because I put the foot down with NM and cut off the conversation, Dad stepped up and sent me a disgusting message on her behalf.  Of course, it's just an echo of NM's message, all the same words used, except then he goes on to numerate "all the times" (like two) when he's been nice to me or supported me.  Which made me feel like, oh right, so everything nice you do for me has strings too...and you'll use them later as justification for violating me.  I'm even more upset when enabling Co-N D gets involved; somehow it hurts worse than NM.

Anyway, thank you for the advice, for giving me permission to just not read them.  I find myself so upset after each one that I really can't concentrate on my kids or my deadlines...I still feel like they're winning.

So no more reading.  No more engaging.  This has to stop.

Thank you for your help...feel like I'm losing my mind.
Kay x

[KayZee]

Thanks Hops,

I just blocked their email (after I sent the below message to my father's reply).  I think I'm going to go onto my cellphone and temporarily block their numbers too...

Hi Kay

I apologize for the delayed response, but X's wedding and the subsequent catch up effort with work took their toll. The delay also gave me time to ruminate about your email, and I have to say that I was absolutely stunned by its tone.  First of all, there is nothing abnormal about parents dropping in for a surprise visit to see their daughter and grandkids.  I was pretty much denied that pleasure when you and Nikki were young, due to the early death of both my parents. Additionally both Mom and I thought that, by restricting our visit to less than two hours, we were being considerate of both your and DH's time.

What I find distressing is that nobody displayed any annoyance at the time of our visit.  Since it is now obvious that you were rattled by our presence, I wish that you had just raised the issue when we were there so that we could have discussed it and dealt with it.

I know that our relationship has been strained as of late, and I can’t fathom what transgression it is that we might have committed to justify this arm’s length relationship.  I can only assure you that it wasn’t intentional.  We’ve always been there to support you with both physical and emotional issues. Kay, we were there to care for your daughter during the birth of of your son. We were there to help with all of your moves, including the one into your current home. And, I certainly did my best to support you during your tumultuous time during X.

I can appreciate the fact that you are dealing with pressures of deadlines.  But believe me when I tell you that everyone we love is suffering from enormous physical, emotional, and economic stress. We just need to acknowledge it, support each other, and try our best to repair any damage along the way. That’s the way families are supposed to function.  I’m just saddened and disheartened by being reduced to using email in that attempt.

Dad

My response...I'm really done:

Hi Dad,

Thanks for writing...

I sent you an email because--after weeks of telling Mom by phone and text that this is not a good time for us and we will arrange a time to meet up once we've met our deadlines and commitments--I felt the need to put it in writing: we do not want unannounced visits.  A surprise, when someone has been repeatedly told "not right now," is more like an ambush.  It's more like bulldozing.  There's nothing "arm's length" about asking you to please not show up at our house without clearing it with me first.

I didn't want to "talk it out" while you were here.  All that would have accomplished was having this exact same conversation, experiencing the same lack of empathy and broad-stroke personal attacks....only not by email, in front of my children.  And I'm unwilling to expose my kids or husband to my mother's rage.  I'd like to think we could have discussed and dealt with it--like you said--but I think you know as well as I do that those kinds of discussions don't happen in our family.  If I come to you hoping to address a very specific problem, Mom attacks me in a general way and you support her like a henchman.  Which is fine.  You're her partner and you have to live there.

It makes me really sad that you lost your parents so young.  And I totally feel for you, wishing they could come visit and be involved in your life as a young dad.

I thank you very much for helping with DD while DS was born, and for helping with my moves and my tough time in X.  I've appreciated them very much.  But the fact that you bring them up now, makes them feel like you're trying to emotionally blackmail me--to say that because you've done that, you have some entitlement to drop in whenever you like, regardless of our time, commitments or level of comfort.  I'm sorry if I put you out in any of those situations.

lots of love and take care,
Koren x

[sKePTiKal]

They thrive on your distress.

Hard to believe - amazingly sad to thing to believe humans, especially parents - could be that way. They can.
Distress goes down, when you're not having to watch each & every violation (repeatedly) of boundaries... or wrack your brain for ways to try to express yourself in a way that they'll finally understand... finally accept that they've hurt you... finally apologize and treat you as an adult human being.

When distress goes down - sometimes, there's a sense of "loss". You'd think it would be relief instead - and there is some of that. But just like some folks get accustomed to the caffiene-fueled level of adrenalin - of always being on the go and bursting with energy... some become habituated to this kind of distress:

so much so, that it begins to substitute for what a real relationship is. We're very loathe to give that up... it's like a "last straw" of hope or something. But it's precisely this, that is required in "the game" -- for it to continue.

Without someone to distress - or at least, without you to distress - they'll go on to another "target", eventually. Accept that you will be bad-mouthed for a few weeks, until the next "outrage" in their life comes along. (Actually, I found that accepting this gave me the emotional "space" for some basic confidence in my own judgement, perception to grow... a positive "side-effect", if you will.)

You are guaranteed entitled to take a "time out" in the game -- for as long as you need or want.
Those time-outs can provide you with your answers and revelations about "what's next".

You must be at least 7 or 8 months along now, right? You're starting to tire more easily? PLEASE - do yourself and this child a favor - and take a time out for a couple of months! Your distress - and adrenalin levels - are perceptible, I believe by the bambino. You are, after all, his or her environment right?

Time-out for both of you, then.

[KayZee]

Gosh, yes...I'm exactly two months from my due date.  Much too pregnant to be stressing the poor baby bump out.  Couldn't sleep a wink last night.  Following Dad's email, I was all grief, stress and raging heartburn.

Thank you so much, P.R. for talking it through with me.  And for giving me the permission (or helping me give myself the permission) to walk away.  I had the same realization at 2 a.m. last night: the bullying, the gossiping, the gaslighting, the boundary-stomping won't stop, not ever unless I break the cycle.  And the only way I can do that is by ending contact.  They will find themselves another scapegoat once I go away because they are incapable of living without one.  All their childhood baggage and bad feelings have to go somewhere.  But it won't be flung at me, not anymore.

I've totally played my part in this family game.  Because I had some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, confused pain with love, felt like having a dysfunctional abusive family was better than having no family at all.  But it's not better.  It's much much worse.  And all this crap is causing additional stress to my marriage, making it difficult for me to concentrate when I'm with my kids, and absolutely zapping me of any creative energy or ability to work.

So here I am...Line drawn.  Emails and phone numbers blocked.  Still a little bit worried they will escalate it further, but I think (hope) in a few days time, I'll be back to feeling calm, safe, and ready to focus (for the first time in a long time) on my recovery, my work, my real family (DH and the kids) and me.

((((P.R.))))
huge hugs of gratitude,
Kay x