Knew this would happen. Really need advice...

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((((((KayZee)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Twoapenny]

Oh Kay   I think you've dealt with this brilliantly, much better than I could have done.  I've always found myself rounded into a corner with letters and emails like those; my mum always seemed to get the upper hand (and did all the stuff like listing how much they'd helped me and just wanting us to get along).

I think the thing I found most difficult to deal with was that they couldn't see things from my point of view.  I spent a lot of time wondering whether my 'demands' (I got that too, funny how the language is similar) were reasonable - like you, I was 'demanding' that they respect limits and boundaries.  Eventually I accepted that they see the world differently and that our two worlds can't exist side by side.  It is so, so sad when someone gets to a stage where they have to stop seeing their own family, but, like you, conact with them used to make me ill (all my mental health problems went away when I went NC).  So as horrible as it is, I think you are doing the right thing.

Hugs to you (((((((((((((((((((((Kay)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[sKePTiKal]

Kay and Penny...

Something just popped into my head, from Penny's last post.

I wonder if the similarities in "modus operandi", "plot", and right down to the dialogue... are because the nparents are playing out the role of a character in a drama or stageplay?? As if they've hypnotized themselves to actually believe they ARE the character - us Nresisters are always the protagonists to their victimized, aggrieved, parent - and therefore they are able to "crazy-make" on that basis... never, ever, seeing beyond the "play" of the drama... to the real people and feelings in the roles??

Does that make any sense?? It was a snippet of an idea... that kinda fit into other snippets that I've noticed, from time to time. And kind of works with my idea that we can - we have the free choice, without invoking some karma or breaking some taboo - simply stop playing in THEIR drama.

[Twoapenny]

Yeah, I think there's something in that, Phoenix, my mum literally exists in a parallel universe - she just doesn't deal with reality so it's her way or no way.  Perhaps they have that in common, that they're 'acting out' being alive instead of actually living (and feeling/relating/thinking etc).  It's very difficult to deal with.  And, like you say, the only way I was able to cope was to opt out and just do my own thing.

It's funny but I saw something similar like that last night; two friends of mine came round and for ninety minutes talked about themselves and things that had happened on their last night out.  I felt like i was watching a play instead of being at home with a couple of friends.  There was very little conversation or interaction, it was like watching two monologues interspersed with the odd dualogue; it was almost as if I wasn't there.  Just like being at home, lol

[KayZee]

((((Tup))))

Eventually I accepted that they see the world differently and that our two worlds can't exist side by side.  It is so, so sad when someone gets to a stage where they have to stop seeing their own family, but, like you, conact with them used to make me ill (all my mental health problems went away when I went NC).  So as horrible as it is, I think you are doing the right thing.

I can totally relate to this.  There is just no way to meet in the middle.  I've been trying for years, and it just causes too much pain and confusion on both sides.

I found these "Ten Commandments of Dysfunctional Families" the other day: http://www.ministryhealth.net/mh_articles/064_ten_commandments_of_dysfunctional_families.html.  They really hit home.  The only way we could have a (in my folks' mind) peaceful "relationship" is if I adhered to all these rules.  And I am truly incapable of doing that at this time in my life.  Living that way makes me feel sick; it makes me self-sabotage and it ruins relationships with people outside my crazy FOO.

Spent the past couple of days outside, going on long fall walks with DH and the kids.  Also had a good, honest, supportive talk with my aunt and uncle--for years, they've been the only strong family connection I have.  Feeling much happier and more positive than I did a few days ago, although I do feel the guilt slowly starting to creep in. 

Thank you so much for making me feel less alone.
It's sad, but comforting to know so many of us have experienced this...
Kay x

[KayZee]

P.R. and Tup, you hit the nail on the head. 

they're 'acting out' being alive instead of actually living (and feeling/relating/thinking etc)

  I often feel like FOO is a theater troupe or something.  NM handed out the roles and the script a million years ago.  And if you want to survive in my family, you have to talk like NM, be a good little echo.

Oddly, my childhood home always felt like a stage set.  From the outside it was immaculate: big house, manicured lawn, landscaping, the works.  But inside, it was dark and see-your-breath freezing cold because NM and D wouldn't "waste" money on heating or the electric bill.  You couldn't touch the thermostat or flick on a second bulb to better read by.  Meanwhile, there were, like, five expensive flood lights constantly illuminating the facade like it was Disney Land, and my parents were burning money on clothes, cars--costumes and props that their imagined "audience" could see. 

Sometimes I think the scapegoat is the one who didn't get the script.  But maybe that's a cop-out, because I've always been well aware of my role as the black sheep and often played into it.  Anyway, my FOO never gets more enraged than they do when I try to go off script, ad lib, improvise, be authentic, acknowledge my reality, etc. 

Life with them feels like some kind of acting exercise and I'm the bad student who can't seem to suspend disbelief and play along.  They're there on stage like good aspiring actors,  "calling me" the phone and I'm the one who refuses to take my cue.  I'm the one saying, "that's not really a telephone....you're just talking into your hand."  This doesn't serve their production very well.  And they sure don't take kindly to it!

Kay x

[sKePTiKal]

From the outside it was immaculate: big house, manicured lawn, landscaping, the works.

THIS is why I'm such a "failure". Gotta be it. I could never, ever, achieve this level of perfection with my house for more than say... 90 seconds. Too busy living life and taking care of the warm-blooded, breathing people in it. Usually this "magic moment" happens in the last hour before company is arriving. Doing my best impression of the Tasmanian Devil, eventually hubs feels "left out" and begins to assist. I rationalize it - say that at least we can start clean... because I know after 30 minutes of welcoming everyone, getting them settled, handing them a drink... that "perfection" is already sliding back to it's normal equilibrium:

hubs pulls out 2-3 magazines from his mystically organized, teetering stacks to share the "latest" with someone
the kid(s) start investigating what kind of toys are in the dog's basket
the dog is still barking, got so excited he peed on the floor
one of us has to take him out
someone asks if I have extra something that they forgot
oops - this kid is hungry
cats are either tearing through the house in panic -- or stealthily sneaking to one of their favorite hiding places
then someone upsets a drink... hubs sets down his magazines where-ever to grab some paper towels... a kid starts howling; stops in less than 5 mins...
then we're off to another space in the house...
letting the road weary stretch, unwind, get their land-legs back...

... and the kid-toys come out... to repose where-ever attention wandered to something else...


and if I'm REALLY into my "hostess-goodie-chick", "good housekeeping" mode... I'll have snacks at hand... dinner's all ready to throw in the oven... and breakfast is pre-made. A lot of times? In reality? That doesn't happen... and we're putting plates of pizza rolls into the microwave.

People don't believe me, when they ask: where does this go? and I say: it doesn't matter... put it where you think it should go and I'll sort it all out later. When I had 4 teenagers in the house -- I learned that this was the trade-off for actually getting some help. Sometimes their ideas of "where this goes" was better than mine... so I kept that arrangement. It's just really so much easier this way... there are no melt-downs... very few scenes or tantrums... no one goes hungry... and if something needs wiped off -- someone does it.

But the house will never make the cover of the "House Beautiful" or be featured on HGTV... those houses have all the "life" edited out of the rooms... nothing personal remains... it's just the bare-bones idea of someone's "concept" or "design" - a stage-set for a paper-doll, 2-D life... it's not a place to curl up under a throw, with a cup o'tea and a cat, and a really good book... and have a nap with my honey.

Until the next batch of company has an ETA.

[KayZee]

Oh P.R.,

I'm so relieved to hear you say that!  DH and I are exactly the same way.  I'd say on an average day, our house is chaotic, cluttered, pretty messy.  Doesn't help that we both work from home and have two toddlers; we are all constantly dirtying dishes, spilling drinks, spilling toys, scattering books around. 

We'll all pitch in and do a huge clean if we're expecting company, but even then, we have to do it on the morning before our guests' arrival otherwise it just gets washed away like a sandcastle in the tide.  It was actually really lucky we were expecting friends on the afternoon NM made her ambush.  The house was uncharacteristically clean.

And forget about landscaping!  During NM's surprise visit, she, like, surveyed my garden beds.  Pointed out my failure to edge them (as if we have time) and lay down new mulch (as if that's where I want to put our limited money), then went on to tell me all about the new trees, and beds, and $400-worth of mulch she and my dad have applied to their lawn this fall (a shocking sum, given they have no jobs, burned through their retirement cash in less than five years, and are living on god knows what).

We are still new homeowners, a young family, so most of our furniture is junk-shopped and Craigslisted.  Or it came with the house, and we slapped a fresh coat of paint on it.  It's functional.  I like that.  And also pretty comfortable.  And I quite like the feeling of not having anything that I'm too attached to--nothing that would be worth shouting at my kids over if they broke it or smeared it with food or paint.  That was a regular in my FOO's house.  It was, like, you couldn't touch anything.  Even if it was in your room or was quote-unquote yours.  Every Christmas when we were small, NM made a big show of "giving" my sister and I these Madame Alexander dolls.  We only got to oooh and ahhh over them for a second (while NM held them in her hand), and then she quickly swept them into a locking glass display case.  Forget about playing with them, we never even got to touch them.  They were just more accessories for NM's "perfect" house.

I just read that book The Narcissism Epidemic and found my favorite chapters were the ones about homeownership and the way Americans live.  The authors point out just how much the square-footage of the American family spiked in the past decade or so, how colossal our living spaces are compared to other cultures.  Even if the financial crisis and housing collapse have meant people buy smaller homes (no more McMansions), a lot still spend exorbitant sums spanking their cribs out with granite, stainless steel, etc; people go smaller as an excuse to go more luxurious.  The authors argue home ownership is still a lot about "show" and superficialities.  Do real friends really care if you have trend-conscious curtains?  Who cares if you have Viking appliances, just so long as your appliances work? 

Here's to "bad housekeeping!"  But hopefully good parenting... My kids and DH are so much more important than my weed-ridden bed and offensive wallpaper.

Kay x

[sKePTiKal]

LOL... oops... looks like my digression hit a couple of nerves! LOL...

Well, so we're all in the same leaky boat as far as Good Housekeeping Awards are concerned, huh? That's probably a REALLY good sign of health. What you said tt, about realizing you're "not in control" -- THAT'S it, really. The key to what winds up the Tasmanian Devil, too. Like there's something bad about not being in control... like the old witch is gonna come along and punish us or put us down, for not being like her -- master of her universe, making everyone "hop to". I would've tried to find a way, to not be the one deciding what item meant the most to someone else - it's a common thing between hubs & me - I don't want to be responsible for his stuff, couldn't possibly know what matters most to him - so I require at least his participation in the process, though I prefer him to do it himself while I do other things. (That rarely happens.)

Yep; I know about Pex piping. Our very first trip down to this house, with a load of stuff from the old one - we had one of my friends with us. As we walked in the door downstairs and started to unload the truck - she pointed out the ceiling in the kitchen was dripping water. I ran upstairs and tried to guess where the water was coming from - cold water supply in the upstairs kitchen island, where it fed into the faucet. Hubs turned the cut-off, right then, we put dishpans under all the sinks that weekend -- and I still don't have cold water at the island...!!

Kay: I live in a house, in a neighborhood full of houses that are "perfect". Folks here call our house the "pretty house"... it's kinda mediterranean, cruciform layout inside with columns & arches... and palm trees outside. The epitome of McMansion. We use solar lights to create shadows through the palm trees onto the walls of the house. The knee-high grass in the bed I didn't get weeded in the 90+ degree humidity finally all fell over. I have weed-trees to saw out of my property border of hollies. It needs to be cool and dry for me to go back in there. We moved from a non-descript, 2-bed/1-1/2 bath brick rancher that had a finished basement and garage for hubs to die for (and it almost killed him to empty out all his "junk" from there when we moved, too.) I could never, ever in my wildest dreams think that someday I would own a house like this. Big patio out back, pool, separate completely closed in poolhouse, too. That's our "adult play room"... our "bar"... Margaritaville, style. I call it the "Miami Vice" house... but it's transforming into something else right now. Part of that is intentional - design; part of that is just our living in the space and figuring out how we live in it.

The "dirty little secret" about these houses... is that most of us clean them and do the bulk of the yardwork ourselves. And so, when you look beyond the first impression - it's far from "perfect". Look up at vaulted ceilings and you'll be sure to find at least one cobweb. There are some HUGE houses here - over 10,000 sq ft. Makes ours seem puny, except that the upstairs - where we really live - is all open, with bedroom wings separated by a very long and wide hallway and an office. Open plans can become "cluttered" simply by living in them. The folks who do have those "perfect" houses? They don't seem very happy, I've noticed. They have less fun, even, than I do... and I'm supposedly a quiet, withdrawn, inhibited introverted sort. Our kids will come right out & say: you don't HAVE to clean for us!! Don't you DARE kill yourself cleaning - we'll be fine. They are used to and most comfortable in "lived in" spaces and only nervous in the "too perfect", "museum quality" House Beautiful environments where one's afraid to put their feet up. I don't want to do that to people, so I've told the Tasmanian Devil to stuff it, on occasion.

So far, I've taught myself that I don't have to be ashamed of having dirty dishes in the sink and the sink drainer out (yeah, I have a dish washer - but hubs & I don't often make enough dishes dirty to run it - so I just hand wash). I don't have to be ashamed of hubs' stacks of magazines everywhere... so far, no one's even mentioned "you must read alot" yet. If they do, I'll just say they're his - LOL!! If you look at other people's houses -- really look -- you'll see the same thing.

BUT: all this talk of houses reminds me -- my T and I talked a lot about Jungian symbolism; my dreams prompted that. Maybe there's enough in that for a whole separate topic... so when I get a chance... I'll take this digression on over to a new thread and dig through it a little more. It must be I sense an early winter coming on... I'm in full hibernation-nesting mode already. And that sort of turns up the wick on the reflection lamp, too.

[KayZee]

((((T.T.))))
I'm so sorry about your supply line.  Definitely rest up, take it easy.  That clean up job sounds stressful, strenuous.  I know what you mean about feeling like it's not under your control.  I'm still a pretty new homeowner (been less than a year), but I already feel like this place has a will and a mind of its own!

P.R.,
Your house sounds so beautiful, comfortable, welcoming and calm.  I think it's going to be a good long while before DH and I can make our abode beautiful or calm, but in the meantime, we can try for welcoming!  When I first started living with DH, I'd get really stressed out about cleaning before anyone came over (still had that mentality from all those years in my FOO's house that everything had to look perfect).  Anyway, DH always used to tell me "Don't make it too clean or our friends, family, whoever won't feel comfortable!"  I had little idea what he meant at the time, but now I do.  There's something really nice about going round someone's house and finding it in its usual state: books scattered, sink full of dishes, messy dinner prep all over the counters; somehow it makes me feel like part of their family.  I only hope people who come to my pigsty feel the same!

Kay x

[sKePTiKal]

Odd how backwards that is, isn't it?

If you clean up too much... make things "too perfect"... the normal folk of the world are afraid to sit down and relax. Hubs' cousins have told me: don't you dare clean up... just for us. Don't fuss. We'll be just fine. My kids have forcefully put me in a chair, handed me a drink, and told me: you don't have to do this Mom... we got it. Relax. (And you know I was only able to sit 5-10 minutes, don't you?)

My thing, has a shame aspect to it, for sure. My mom's place - being a hoarder - was claustrophobic for me. Large rooms with only a foot wide path through them... and with dogs & cats... layers of hair, inches thick. I coughed continuously being in there and it was even worse when we were helping her pack up to move. Some of the dirt & dust was decades old (my step-dad wasn't much of a housekeeper either). I only had a couple friends who "knew"... that I wasn't totally embarrassed to let them see the "mess" she preferred to live in.

In my desperation to "not be like her"... I think I got a bit neurotic and obsessive about cleaning, arranging things (I have this OCD thing about creating little still-lifes around the house... wacko-me... it's kinda fun), and I was just sooooo ashamed that someone would look around and think: "ooooo yuck! look at that dust" and then judge me, the way I judged my mom (how could anyone live like that??). There was a whole difference in scale, in comparison, that I wasn't taking into consideration though.

My BFF from high school told tales of how her mom, used to follow behind her after she cleaned the house, with white gloves... to see if she missed any dust. (We made up awful, childish, mean nursery rhymes about her... this was before we knew what an N was.) There's just a whole lot more to life, that a person misses... if you focus on those things that people don't really notice, anyway. Now, I just pick my battles... and if anyone says anything (no, they never do - just compliments)... my "excuse" is that I'm starting to age & slow down... and I just "didn't get there" before I pooped out & company showed up!

[KayZee]

Blergggg....... Two more quick questions on the NC front:

Dilemma #1: And I suspected this would happen...  NM sent a package in the mail, which was the one form of communication I didn't explicitly say not to contact me through.  It filled me with feelings of revulsion from the first second I saw it, so I tried to sweep it out of sight until I could figure out whether to return it to sender.  Anyway, my three year old saw it anyway and begged to open it, so I reluctantly let her (it was addressed to her and my son).  No note or anything inside.  NM just filled a priority mail box with a bunch of junk (old puppets) from her attic.  It was, like, she wanted to send something just to send something.  Just to prove I couldn't keep her out of our lives.  I also had the feeling of being baited; there's not a chance in hell I'm going to get in touch with NM to thank her, and then of course, she'll have the satisfaction of going around and telling the rest of my family what an ingrate I am.  ANYWAY...  What should I do about this?  I don't want to have any contact with her, including getting in touch again to say please don't contact me by mail.  But DH and I were both a bit iffy about taking it back to the post office, which NM will consider a full declaration of war.  I also don't want to give this too much thought; that makes me feel like she's winning...she's still managing to disrupt my work schedule and third trimester.  Managed to bring the kids out for an autumn drive this afternoon, and we chanced upon this beautiful barn dance with line-dancing and free pony rides.  But I still went hours feeling like there was a big cloud hanging over me, dread and depression for the first time since going NC.

Dilemma #2: Before their surprise visit, I'd invited NM and co-NDad to our house for Thanksgiving and Xmas.  They didn't say they were coming.  In fact, NM ignored the invitation outright and gave the general impression of being aggrieved about the whole thing (every year she insists everyone comes to her house).  So it was a bigger deal than it should have been saying NO, we will NOT come to you on Thanksgiving (which is close to my due date) and we will NOT drive three plus hours to see you for X-mas with our newborn baby.  But having been NC for a couple of weeks, I find my resolve growing instead of weakening (the exact opposite of what I expected to happen).  I really don't want to see them for either holiday, which they will undoubtedly ruin as always.  And very likely they'll be even more punishing after this period of being NC.  Is it okay to dis-invite them?  They haven't even accepted the invitation to begin with and, left up to them, they would likely string us along until the day before just like last year--never saying whether they plan on coming.  I can't really imagine how I'd do it.  Except maybe to say, that DH and I want to do our own thing this year.

 I really can't take them.  I don't want to be around them.  So far, being NC has only given me more clarity.  The more time I spend away from them, the more I realize that their cruelty is so subtle, secretive, systematic and selective (aimed only at scapegoats, "bad" guys like me).  I feel like it's truly evil, repulsive and creepy.  I just don't want it in my life.  Came across this quote by Simone Weil and totally related: "Imaginary evil is romantic and varied, real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring."  I'm so sick of playing out NM's same dull melodrama.  I just want away from her.

Anyway, if anyone's got any advice, I'd really appreciate it!
Kay x

[Hopalong]

A note, mailed?

We will not be hosting Thanksgiving or Christmas this year, and will be spending the holidays on our own.

best wishes for the holiday season.

Nothing works but I do think, (((((((KZ)))))))) that I recognize this feeling you describe -- I felt it often with my mother. A crawling smothering anxiety that made me nearly phobic about her. It was a very long time before I became unaffected by her smallest gestures.

I think phobic is really how it felt. It DID get better. By late in her life I had ZERO expectation that she would change at all -- and with great age, she no longer had the power to "push my buttons". I wish I could say I had simply won the battle in my own mind to not react or overreact to her. I didn't win, but I became more inured.  I no longer expected fairness, reciprocity, sensitivity, courtesy, or lack of manipulation. At the same time, I stopped hating and blaming her for being what she was. I realized that she was what she was. And most of it was beyond her control.

After a looooong time, my choice to view her with compassion (while learning to say No and hold my boundaries) ... enabled me to feel at ease again. (No confusion of compassion with obedience, btw!)

I think you're in a vulnerable state right now and that makes it worse. I think you deserve mothering and lots of it ... but that it will have to be other-mothers. I learned to get it from myself and from amazing groups of women in my church. I was tremendously supported (as I have been here).

I really feel for you, I am so sorry you're feeling this stress (and that she is compulsively passive aggressive toward you). I think you should (if another package comes) LISTEN TO your instant revulsion and respect it -- it was the delay (Until I could figure out whether to return it) that did you in.

Remember this -- an unwanted package does NOT have to be "returned to sender." It can be immediately rushed to the nearest off-premises trash receptacle and dumped in, unopened. And then a major happy distraction -- cooking, calling a friend, watching a totally absorbing movie .. and lost of busyness until the fear of disobeying wears off.

It works!

love toyou
Hops

[lighter]

I don't know, Kayzee:

I'd be tempted to drop those puppets off at the nearest Goodwill store.  Send those creepy puppets out into the universe for someone to enjoy.  Yup yup yup.
 
About the Thanksgiving and Christmas invitations.....

go ahead and cancel those invites, the quicker the better.  I hate to think of that hanging over your head too long.

Can you have your husband deal with it?  Why are you always the one dealing with it?  It's not like you aren;t in your third trimester, and in need of serenity, for goodness sake.

Let dh field just this one, and get it behind you as quickly as you can.  Maybe he can make a quick phone call, and say
"Due to current circumstances,  we realize it was a mistake to invite you for Christmas etc.   Please do not concern yourselves with RSVPing as those plans have been cancelled.  Contact won't be taking place until X number of months have passed.  Your respectful compliance, or lack thereof, will be part of the decision process going forward, so thanks in advance for being mindful of our wishes.  Goodbye. 

Click. 

 I realize that conversation isn't unlikely to go well for dh, so perhaps an e mail?  It would make it easier for your parents to broadcast your decision, which would weigh pretty heavily in my decision to cut them out, or not.  Maybe you could ask them to keep your private business, private, thus providing one more opportunity for them to hang themselves and prove why you've limited contact and might should cut them out completely.  It would really tick me off to have my e mail circulated during the holidays when I was giving birth, and struggling with a personal issue of boundary transgression with my overbearing PD parents. 

A break is called for, and it's possible contact will resume, but you don't have to make that decision right now.  Maybe trust your gut and play it by ear.  See how it goes. 

IF they do a good job, you might feel differently when the baby arrives, then again, you may be more certain about keeping he NC rule in place.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Wow, it's like there's a handbook they all share, this is exactly what my mum did!

Kay, I'd take a deep breath and firmly tell yourself not to worry about what your mum tells the rest of your family.  She isn't telling the truth, never has, never will.  It's really hard, I still struggle with worrying about what people think of me.  But you are a good, kind, gracious, loving person and ignoring this randomly sent box of old toys is not a bad thing to do.  You've politely asked for no contact.  I find this kind of thing very passive aggressive.  I agree with Lighter completely, take them to your nearest charity shop/recycling centre/whever you can - someone else will love them and want them, or at least be able to reuse the bits and make something new.  You don't need to communicate anything about this.  You asked for no contact - you can only control your own side of things so you stick to no contact and just ignore them.  And yes, a quick note or email, very simple, as suggested by Hops and Lighter.

Over the years my mum has told dirty, horrible lies about me.  It's a terribly cruel form of control, particularly as the person being lied about may have no idea what's being said!  But, with hindsight, those that knew me dismissed the lies as nonsense and those that didn't bought into it - but they didn't know me and they weren't part of my life so, as hard as it is to cope with, I think the only thing you can do is work on letting it go.  My therapist hammered into me for years the thought that what matters is what I think about myself, not what anyone else thinks.  I still find it hard, but it's a good thing to aim for.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Kay)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))