Understanding People

[Twoapenny]

I've been thinking a bit over the last few days about relationships and how mine don't tend to be very successful and I wondered what, if any, tips others have used to improve their relationships and/or create new, healthy ones?

Your post has shown me that I've never defined (for my own personal use) what constitutes relationship.  I can't define it from my own personal view or experience (which I think is for all practical purposes where a definition matters most).  My comprehension of it is about as stable as a floater in the eye where it floats by from time to time, I know it's there but if I think of it at all, it's only fleetingly along the lines, ummm I still have that floater.  So now I'm going to work at determining exactly what constitutes 'a relationship' for me.  Is it the short chat I have with a cashier at the box store while checking out?  Is it what transpires when an old classmate gets in touch for the first time since we took classes together to 'catch' up without ever calling again?  Is it what lies behind the ability of me and one of my grandchildren to talk for an hour about a philosophical idea/belief?  Is it aunt so and so whose advice is priceless, but to whom I only go when I want her advice?  Is it my old college friend whose timing is so out of sync with mine that I considered abandoning our friendship years ago, but after much thought decided that I would commit to our friendship/relationship, clenching it for the rest of our lives?  Is it the housekeeper with whom I chat casually and briefly once a week and who makes the house shine because she is dedicated to pleasing her client?  Is it my Pastor who consistently turns out a great sermon regularly which impacts my life positively without any person to person, sit down and chat exchange?  Is it a one night stand or is it a marriage that lasts for 50 years?  Is it someone we hang out with in social media?  I could go on and on asking these kinds of questions (I'm that ignorant about it all) but I think I get the point.  I'm simply not able to express what constitutes 'relationship' to me personally at this time.  I think what is at the forefront for me regarding your question is that I am positive that I have many good relationships and friendships, it's just that I've never analyzed the why and how come of how they came about.  Twoapenny, hopefully your post will be the  impetus behind my figuring this out.

Hi TT, the whole 'what is a relationship' area has been a difficult one for me too (and still is), particularly because one thing I notice about myself is that I have different expectations of different people and I have struggled to work out why that is.  I have struggled terribly in more recent years with two things in particular - one is friends who just go off me for some reason and just stop returning my calls and the other has been people who have stopped contacting me when I've put certain boundaries in place.

I think what I want in a friendship, whether a platonic or a romantic one, is for there to be honesty between the two of us that doesn't crush either person (ie, being able to say, I'm sorry I haven't got time to meet/talk/help you out at the moment but how about next weeekend?), to be able to have boundaries without that ending the friendship (I like spending time with you but I don't want to listen to you complain about your boyfriend for an hour again this week), to be able to have fun in a mutually convenient way (I can't get out because I don't have a babysitter but how about you come over here?) and I think an awareness or respect for each other's situation (I have a long list now of people who I have considered friends who have sat in my house saying unpleasant things about disabled people and people on low incomes when my son is disabled and I am on a low income).

What I've realised (and your post helped me realise this) is that I haven't done all of those things, even thought it's what I want to have.  So I've not been honest with a friend who's been draining me with their problems and said I'm sorry, I'm too tired to listen to this at the moment, and I've not remonstrated with people who have made comments I've found upsetting and offensive (for fear of upsetting or offending them), I've been so hurt when people I love - like my older sister - have walked out of my life when I've put boundaries in place (don't keep turning up unannounced, you need to ring first).

I've also realised that I've outgrown a lot of people, at a frightening rate in recent months, and I feel bad about not staying in touch with people who have helped me out in the past.  I have three friends I'm thinking of specifically at the moment who did a lot for me years ago when I was going through a particularly bad time but if I'm completely honest I just don't enjoy their company very much any more - a coffee every now and again is fine but more than that isn't enjoyable for me.  And I feel terrible for saying that, I feel snobby and condescending and that I'm turning my back on people who've been kind in the past.  And that's something I think I need to work on because I can see that I feel very obliged to people for being nice to me and I feel I owe them something for ever more.  From the other perspective, I know I want people in my life who want to be around me because they enjoy my company, not because they feel obliged or like they owe me something, so I'm sure those other people would feel the same way so I really need to work on that (I've even muddled myself up now, it all gets very confusing!).  But I think basically I have finally realised I need to work on myself more and then I think (hope) that the relationship thing will start to work a little bit better - fingers crossed! xx

[Twoapenny]

I am feeling great loss of the years when friends talked on the phone for frequent long chats, when letters were exchanged now and then. I remember adapting to email--at first suspicious--then delighted at how satisfying real correspondences were still possible, only faster.

But now even my email Inbox remains mostly empty of anything personal. People are tethered to their devices and even when present, I'm shocked by how many people keep checking their phones. It's disturbing and looks addictive and I loathe it.

Now that almost everyone has migrated to ****ing Facebook, my phone is nearly silent, and if I didn't reach out very deliberately, I could spend days without speaking to another soul. I do have friends and I do host gatherings. But still I just HATE the way social media has taken over. I feel isolated and more alone, yet everything knowledgeable I read about FB says that, with the exception of catching up with far-flung friends (or for the homebound) -- for the rest of most regular users, FB use INCREASES loneliness overall.

And the only reason FB exists is to mine users' data and develop horrifyingly sophisticated algorithms that reduce everyone to a click. A profitable click. Its privacy invasions creep me out and so I have held off. But, I do miss out socially because of that stubbornness.

Anyway, just a rant. Ending!

Hops

I've been astonished just this week at how difficult it is to buy writing sets now; there are lots of boxes of notecards that you can scribble something brief in but I wanted proper old fashioned paper with matching envelopes and in the end I had to look online as nowhere near us sold anything like that.  I did try Facebook in the interests of trying to be more sociable but I found people ignore me just as much on there as they do in real life so I gave up.  I'm like you Hopsie, I find the constant checking and faffing about on phones mind numbing, I do have a couple of friends I have long phone conversations with and they're like gold dust now.  I think there's such a focus on everything being done very quickly, there's not as much depth.  I was watching that CatFish programme over Christams; I don't know if you've ever seen it but it's about people who 'fall in love' online and the person they've fallen for turns out not to be who they claim to be.  Some of the stories were really sad, kids who've been so badly bullied in school that online contact is the only friendship they get for example, but in a lot of cases I was astonished at the number of people who've been communicating for over a year purely by text and social media - they've never spoken on the phone or met up in real life and I just found that quite amazing (and quite sad, particularly as some of them had really fallen hard and finding out they'd fallen in love with a phantom was heart breaking for them).

I have found one of the reasons a lot of my friendships have broken down is because people don't have time to talk on the phone.  Even catching people in is difficult a lot of the time.

[Twoapenny]

Tupp:

It IS time for change: )

How will it begin? 

It gives me chills to think about the mindful cultivation of joy in your life. 

It's your time.

::nodding::

Lighter

Lighter, it's funny how these things are there all the time but we don't see them and then suddenly, BAM!  It's so obvious.  I've been hiding away, trying not to attract attention, not to attract criticism, not laying myself open to more abuse allegations by being 'seen' in anyway.  Where money's concerned I find spending it on myself very very hard to do; clothes are usually from charity shops or if I buy new it's the cheapest I can find.  I looked in my wardrobe and there wasn't a single thing in there that I wanted to wear, it's all just 'that'll do'.  I went for acupuncture a couple of days ago and I realised when I came out that I'm wasting my money on things like that because my life style is so punishing that I undo all that lovely relaxation within a couple of days of the treatment and spend the next six weeks really uptight and exhausted again.

So - in the interests of coming back to life I have dyed my hair red - I used henna as I don't like chemical stuff and I went for a chestnut sort of red rather than bright red, if that makes sense?  But I love it, my hair looks really healthy and you can kind of catch the red in it when the sun's on it so it looks quite natural (as much as dyed hair can anyway!). I ordered some new clothes online.  I found that really hard - I just don't spend money on things like that - but I've gone for a few bits from companies that sell fair trade products and I've got a little corner of colour in my wardrobe now, it makes me smile when I open the door.  I've decided to make meditating and yoga/exercise a priority in my day and try and do them first thing; usually I put the 'me' stuff at the end of the list and don't get round to it but I've put it to the front now and I do feel better for it already.  I'm trying to clean up our diet and I was pouring over recipe books last night picking out the healthiest stuff and thinking of ways to get my son involved more; made me think of you with your D and all the sugar free cooking.  We've delayed moving so my son can have some more tests done, only by a few months but it's given me time to slow down a bit which I think is good xx

[Twoapenny]

I've just done a very short meditation I found on YouTube about healing rejection.  This is something I have suffered with for so many years; I feel any kind of rejection so acutely and I carry it around for so long.  It's such a heavy burden and I hate the way it makes me feel and think but I've really struggled to do anything with it.

In the meditation the chap quite simply says that when someone rejects you it just means that they are searching for happiness the same way that you are and that, for whatever reason, they can't take you on their journey.  My initial pang on hearing that was rejection again:  "Oh!  They want to be happy and they can't be with me around.  They don't want me."  It was there for a second and then, poof, it all made so much sense and I literally felt that huge weight lifting from me, because suddenly it doesn't feel like it's personal or that it's because there's something wrong with me, it's just 'because' and that's okay.  It's also made me feel better about leaving other people behind; it's something that I struggle with and feel terribly guilty about if I don't want to be around someone anymore because I've just gone off them a bit but I suddenly don't feel so bad about doing that.

[lighter]

Tupp:

It made me feel very glad to read about your new spot of color in the closet. 

I actually got chills reading about your practicing yoga and meditation on a regular basis.  It's creating sacred space inside ourselves.  I picture you doing it in a very tidy sunny place..... a sacred space for sacred work: )

I'm sending prayers for continued healing for you and your son.

You might put off your move for a bit, but it's coming, and you'll be ready for it.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Tupp:

It made me feel very glad to read about your new spot of color in the closet. 

I actually got chills reading about your practicing yoga and meditation on a regular basis.  It's creating sacred space inside ourselves.  I picture you doing it in a very tidy sunny place..... a sacred space for sacred work: )

I'm sending prayers for continued healing for you and your son.

You might put off your move for a bit, but it's coming, and you'll be ready for it.

Lighter

Hi Lighter,

Thank you   I'm finding the yoga and meditation is bringing up yet more old stuff - it's amazing how much we keep inside ourselves.  I'm struggling a bit, I fell off the wagon yesterday, ate loads of doughnuts and watched loads of rubbish on telly.  I've been meditating on attracting wealth - I've always been on a low income and when a bit of money comes my way something else usually happens to eat it up.  I have always felt like my mum sold us - my step dad bought her whatever she wanted and she let him do what he liked to her daughters.  I've always been aware of it but hadn't really acknowledged it before if that makes sense?  So that reared it's head and I've found that a difficult feeling to sit with, hence the doughnuts and the telly   I've also been getting a lot of memories back about things I did as a younger person and have been feeling a lot of shame and anger towards myself, so I'm trying now to focus on working through that and letting it go.  Trying not to give myself a hard time about it, I think in the long run things are moving forward well but I know I tend to focus on the bits that didn't work quite so well, so trying to let that go as well.  It's funny how much we want to let go off things but how hard we find it is to do it?!

Love and happy wishes to you and your girls.  Thank you for the prayers xx

[Gaining Strength]

I'm astounded again at how much about myself I don't notice for years and then suddenly I see it and it's so obvious I don't know how I've missed it.  Nothing about my life is as I want it.  I don't live the way I want to live, I don't spend my days doing what I love to do, I'm not with people I love to be with, I'm not spending time in places that I love to be in, I don't even wear the sort of clothes I really love to wear.  And I can see so clearly - and why it's happened today I don't know - that I've never felt that I deserve those things in my life and so instead I live the life of a drudge, making do and putting up and tolerating and not rocking the boat or upsetting anyone or making any kind of demand or assertion about myself or what I want.  I don't know why I didn't see this before.  Anyway, time to change that.

I relate to your thread, especially this post.  I too struggle with a child who has difficulties.  It can be all consuming.  But I have also found that bit by bit over the past 15 years, while all my childhood and young adult friends left me behind I have picked up a few new ones.  And the more I heal, and discover "the obvious" about myself, the more acquaintances I interact with..  I find myself being more open to people I never would have entertained, would have shut off immediately in the past. This opens my realm of friendly interactions with acquaintances and I think that has made it possible to have a few friends again  It has been slow and subtle.

I didn't know exactly where I was going with this post when I started but now that I've written it I see even more the value of opening up to a broader range of acquaintances has made a big difference, being friendly, inquiring about them, really interested even though not really getting together or wanting a close relationship but expanding interactions and reducing my level of rejecting others.

[Twoapenny]

I'm astounded again at how much about myself I don't notice for years and then suddenly I see it and it's so obvious I don't know how I've missed it.  Nothing about my life is as I want it.  I don't live the way I want to live, I don't spend my days doing what I love to do, I'm not with people I love to be with, I'm not spending time in places that I love to be in, I don't even wear the sort of clothes I really love to wear.  And I can see so clearly - and why it's happened today I don't know - that I've never felt that I deserve those things in my life and so instead I live the life of a drudge, making do and putting up and tolerating and not rocking the boat or upsetting anyone or making any kind of demand or assertion about myself or what I want.  I don't know why I didn't see this before.  Anyway, time to change that.

I relate to your thread, especially this post.  I too struggle with a child who has difficulties.  It can be all consuming.  But I have also found that bit by bit over the past 15 years, while all my childhood and young adult friends left me behind I have picked up a few new ones.  And the more I heal, and discover "the obvious" about myself, the more acquaintances I interact with..  I find myself being more open to people I never would have entertained, would have shut off immediately in the past. This opens my realm of friendly interactions with acquaintances and I think that has made it possible to have a few friends again  It has been slow and subtle.

I didn't know exactly where I was going with this post when I started but now that I've written it I see even more the value of opening up to a broader range of acquaintances has made a big difference, being friendly, inquiring about them, really interested even though not really getting together or wanting a close relationship but expanding interactions and reducing my level of rejecting others.

I understand where you are coming from there, GS, I think part of the problem I've had with people is that I expect friends to be everything I need them to be.  I'm slowly starting to realise that you can have a friend that you just meet for a walk once a month, and one that you talk about politics with and one that you go out with when you want to dance and let your hair down.  I'm realising I'm as hard on others as I am on myself and that none of us can be everything that someone else needs - so I can't expect that in others, either.  I think I've veered a bit too far where friendships go; because I've had a lot of situations where I've let myself be taken advantage of or given a lot more than I've received I think I've fallen into that trap of going too far the other way, not giving anyone any kind of give in a situation, keeping track of what I do compared to what they do and so on.  It's practise, I think, and perhaps better to work on having a group of people that we're involved with in different ways, perhaps?  I think having a child with difficulties (or health problems yourself) can make friendships more difficult.  I find that by the time I've done a full day with my boy I'm shattered and in that day I've probably not spoken to another adult or had a chance to call someone.  If no-one's called me in that time (which is how it is most days) then I feel very alone, although I do realise it just means that other people I know have had a day just as busy and tiring as mine.  I also feel like I don't have much to talk about any more?  My days are often very samey and mundane and the thought of having to make conversation about myself scares me a bit now, I haven't really got anything interesting to say (or at least anything the other person would find interesting!  My phone used to ring a lot through the day and people used to pop round a lot but most of them wanted something from me and once I put some boundaries in place (arrange to come over rather than turning up unnannounced, I can't chat during the day but I'll talk to you this evening or at the weekend) most of those people vanished and I found that hard to cope with.  But, as you say, new people pop up and things start to change; I do feel more positive about the future (and a lot of that is down to this forum and having all of you wonderful people to talk to) xx

[Gaining Strength]

I understand about the dramatic shift in putting up boundaries.  Your post is so insightful.  Shifting from one way of being to another  brings so much unknown.  My own grief at the loss or missing or unfulfilled hope of friendships and relationships is acutely present to me as I read what you have written. 

I feel great compassion for where you are.

[Twoapenny]

I understand about the dramatic shift in putting up boundaries.  Your post is so insightful.  Shifting from one way of being to another  brings so much unknown.  My own grief at the loss or missing or unfulfilled hope of friendships and relationships is acutely present to me as I read what you have written. 

I feel great compassion for where you are.

Thank you, GS, it is a struggle, isn't it?  I have wondered over the years how much of my need for people comes from trying to fill that hole that is usually filled by a mum.  I lost my dad at a young age so it was almost like being orphaned although I still had a parent, which sounds odd.  But I do wonder if those of us who weren't lucky enough to come from loving homes have a greater need for love, and yet conversely often attract the wrong sort because it's what we are used to?  It's almost like a double dilemma but I can definitely feel healing taking place.  I don't feel as lonely all the time, even though my contact with people hasn't increased, and I'm starting to realise that there are some people around me I'm happier not seeing anyway.  I suppose it's all about balance in the end, we're all getting there in our own way x

[Gaining Strength]

Twos penny, I too have thought there a double whammy fallout from a mother incapable of loving, a pretend kind of mother.  Mine looked good from the outside but she was incapable of caring, loving, supporting, nourishing, nurturing.  It left a hole for me, a deepest ache.  As I look back, I see that those I encountered who had had that love soon ran tired of me, my distrust, dark side full of cyan sims and I found those who had been loved naive, surfacey and focused on the shallow.  Only much later did I see it differently.  I see both how and why I'm drawn to other broken beings, why I rejected those not so fully cracked open and how my own wounding kept me unwittingly angry and isolated.

Until very recently, my goal was to be "restored" to lost friendships and form of life.  That will never happen, nor should it.  But I can experience healing and loss of bitterness, perhaps even joy.  In time it will be revealed.

After my husband died when our son was an infant, I struggled with profound depression and anxiety.  I found myself and my child excluded over and over again and my heart was so hardened.  Bit by bit I struggled to make friends, find some level of inclusion and slowly I had bits of success, but I never lost hope for restoration of lost friendships, a longing so deep and so painful.  But as I started down this most recent path of healing I found all of that longing fall away, exposing raw pain opened to the air as if for healing of a sort I had not imagined.  I have no idea what sort of relationships might come about but I do sense it will no longer be that I am perpetually drawn to the broken whose wounds are so familiar but whose wounds also make it easy to mistake some interactions for rejection.  In our most wounded we can so easily misunderstand kindnesses and in our needs see rejection where none is or even need more than someone has to give.  That was both true of me and of several whose friendship I sought.  That brokenness can render such crazy longing and needs and perspectives. 

I'm thinking of you and your precious son. -GS

[Twoapenny]

Twos penny, I too have thought there a double whammy fallout from a mother incapable of loving, a pretend kind of mother.  Mine looked good from the outside but she was incapable of caring, loving, supporting, nourishing, nurturing.  It left a hole for me, a deepest ache.  As I look back, I see that those I encountered who had had that love soon ran tired of me, my distrust, dark side full of cyan sims and I found those who had been loved naive, surfacey and focused on the shallow.  Only much later did I see it differently.  I see both how and why I'm drawn to other broken beings, why I rejected those not so fully cracked open and how my own wounding kept me unwittingly angry and isolated.

Until very recently, my goal was to be "restored" to lost friendships and form of life.  That will never happen, nor should it.  But I can experience healing and loss of bitterness, perhaps even joy.  In time it will be revealed.

After my husband died when our son was an infant, I struggled with profound depression and anxiety.  I found myself and my child excluded over and over again and my heart was so hardened.  Bit by bit I struggled to make friends, find some level of inclusion and slowly I had bits of success, but I never lost hope for restoration of lost friendships, a longing so deep and so painful.  But as I started down this most recent path of healing I found all of that longing fall away, exposing raw pain opened to the air as if for healing of a sort I had not imagined.  I have no idea what sort of relationships might come about but I do sense it will no longer be that I am perpetually drawn to the broken whose wounds are so familiar but whose wounds also make it easy to mistake some interactions for rejection.  In our most wounded we can so easily misunderstand kindnesses and in our needs see rejection where none is or even need more than someone has to give.  That was both true of me and of several whose friendship I sought.  That brokenness can render such crazy longing and needs and perspectives. 

I'm thinking of you and your precious son. -GS

GS, so much of that really resonated with me and it is so painful, I'm sorry you're going/have been through it too.  My mum looked great on the outside; she hid her drinking very well, the house was always immaculate, nice meals cooked, clean clothes, nice birthday and Christmas presents and so on.  But all served up with catty comments and little put downs and days of not being spoken to because we'd done something wrong and having to constantly tiptoe around her in order to avoid making her angry, acting as her friend and confidante, all focus being on her and making her happy.  We were just invisible.  And I feel I've made a lot of friends who are like that over the years; if you're happy to listen to them and help them out and lend them money and so on everything goes well, but putting in boundaries or expecting a bit of listening from them in turn didn't go well and those friendships have fallen.  It hurt enormously, I've struggled so much over the years but I realise now I have a small number of very good friends, very healthy relationships and I'm trying really hard to focus on them and them alone and not to keep worrying about not having 'enough' - I think I feel like I need to have dozens but really one good friend is worth a dozen scrappy ones.  It does shape us, doesn't it, and takes such a long time to reshape!  We can only keep trying   Thank you for your thoughts, thinking of you and yours too x

[Twoapenny]

Well today was my son's birthday, presents, birthday outing and pirate party all went very well despite a last minute disaster when we found the road we needed was closed and we had to go along a very lengthy diversion that was one long traffic jam but we managed to get there just in the nick of time and all was saved.  He's in his room now with his new computer game and I've realised that today has been a pretty big turning point for me, too.

I got dressed in my new, colourful clothes this morning and immediately felt so self conscious and daft that I took them off and put my old, tatty clothes on.  I thought about it a little and realised that I think I am trying to avoid taking responsibility for things, in order to avoid criticism.  If my clothes are old, donated by friends or from charity shops, mismatched etc I can just say I can't afford anything else or I'm too busy, I just chuck on the first thing I come to (which is what I usually do).  Wearing new clothes, specially purchased and in bright colours, means I've made decisions and picked things out, which means people can criticise my choices.  So ..............I put the new clothes back on and of course, no-one paid any attention to what I was wearing anyway because - and I am slowly starting to realise this - not everyone in the world sits on their bum critiquing other people's outfits - most people have better things to do.  So I wore the new clothes and everything was lovely.

My 'friends' and sister, who all live ten minutes up the road, haven't even bothered to phone for my son's birthday, let alone brought round a card for him or to wish him a happy day.  Usually this would upset me enormously but today I realised that we actually have a nicer day without listening to the latest family drama or the gossip from the pub or whatever other nonsense they all go on about.  So instead of feeling upset I actually felt quite pleased; I feel I have escaped that yoke somehow and have no need to contact them or feel bad about not seeing them.  All good.

Lastly there was a letter from the hospital when we got home and another false claim has been made about me.  It isn't a big one and it's easy enough to deal with but, none the less, very unprofessional and the latest in probably about two dozen now that we have had to deal with.  They tend to do this when one of the doctors has made a mistake regarding my son's treatment and they shift the focus from their shoddy work onto my parental capability.  Why they still think this will slip past me unnoticed I don't know but anyway, usually this would be very triggering for me.  I did feel angry and if the woman had been here at that moment I would have given her a right mouthful but that passed quickly, I feel calm again now, I'm going to tidy up, cook dinner and then start drafting a correction letter.  It's annoying but hasn't caused anything like the tsunami of emotion it usually would so that is really good.

One thing did happen today that annoyed me and it is something that I want to start working on.  I was decorating the van with all our home made decorations (very lovely it looked too) and my neighbour came for a look, she's one of those people that seems nice on the surface but always manages to get a little dig in.  I was telling her about our plans for the day and what we were going to do and she was oohing and aahing and saying how lovely it all sounded and then added "It's just a shame he doesn't have any friends to enjoy it with".  These are the sorts of comments I want to start dealing with; my default response is always to not upset the other person by putting them straight.  So I really need to work on that, it was rude, inaccurate and completely uncalled for and I need to find a way to respond to those sort of things immediately rather than letting them by and then being cross with myself afterwards.

So a good day all round, feeling very happy and looking forward to my bed later

[Hopalong]

I just wanna smack that neighbor. UGH.

Very Happy Pirate Day to Tuppkid, and kudos to Tuppflower for sporting her new togs!

love,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I just wanna smack that neighbor. UGH.

Very Happy Pirate Day to Tuppkid, and kudos to Tuppflower for sporting her new togs!

love,
Hops

Ha ha, Hops, I was on the phone to a friend when the same neighbour came around with a present for him, I told my friend what she'd said and her response was the same as yours (and he has got friends, they just don't live on this estate which is the sum total of our neighbour's knowledge of the world).  Thank you for birthday wishes and I've bought some new pyjamas so I can carry on the new clothes theme in bed tonight xxx