My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[Anonymous]

I didn't mean to sound critical, longtire. In case I did, my apologies. I don't see any reason to fix communication with your wife unless you're going to live with her, in which case it might make life easier.

I was also wondering whether you felt in impossible binds as a child? That might make decision-making very dangerous.

bunny

[longtire]

Wow, I stepped into some unfamiliar territory and freaked out.  Then I freaked out about freaking out.  Even though I've been really stressed out the past couple of days, I'm kind of glad to see "proof" that I am an emotional being after all.  <delete "You just don't have feelings" brainwashing from wife>  I've got 'em and they make me act wierd sometimes just like everyone else I've met!  I can't wait until I learn how to learn my lessons without so much disruption, though.  Notice the subtle (or not) change to the title of this thread?  Thanks for being there for me.  I really appreciate it.

mudpuppy, thanks for the viewpoint of a mature Christian.  It especially helped me to realize that I'm basically useless to God or anyone else in this state.  Also, that love thy neighbor as yourself thing.  I'm afraid my wife may actually be doing that, she may hate herself that much.  But, that's obviously not the intent of the rule.  When I think about it now, I envision my S.O. getting excited and being supportive when I say something like "I've found God and am making changes in my life for the better", not being sarcastic and dismissive.  Actually, I'd expect her to know already since we would talk on a daily basis.

As far as fruits, I feel blessed that almost everything I've done has come out great in my life, with the notable exception of this marriage.  I have a job where I get to be creative and make great money.  I am working to repair my relationship with my daughter.  I lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago and having no trouble keeping it off, etc.

Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment? If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was. First it was a MUTUAL commitment. It was a commitment to be partners, to share. This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working. As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me. That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.

I believe this is one more piece of the puzzle for me.  I did make a commitment to her that was not based on her behavior.  In hindsight, that was a mistake.  (ya think? )  I made this committment so long ago that I don't rememeber what it WAS based on.  I expected difficulties and strains in the relationship and believed that I needed to be strong during those times.  But, 17 years of neverending "times" was NOT what I envisioned.  She used my commitment against me by saying she WAS committed to me as well, but did not back that up by her other words and actions.  Then my self doubt would kick in and I'd feel bad for giving her a hard time when she was "trying."  This break occurred immediately after we got married.

Stay with the ambivalence and feel ambivalent. Say to yourself, "I can't decide what to do. I don't know what to do. I respect my ambivalence. It's powerful stuff." Ambivalence may want to tell you something. It may be saying, "You have never made a decision yet--you're still letting your parents do it." It may be saying, "You can't decide because you will look bad and you only want her to look bad." Or, "If you are free and happier than *she* ends up, you will feel the worst guilt of anyone ever!" Thoughts will come up that give you more information. I wonder if some of the ambivalence is about giving up control of a familiar situation...that's what I'm feeling.

Here are some things that came up for me around this ambivalence and my more rational responses:

Even though I got better despite her, not because of her, I feel like I am breaking a promise? to help her heal.  I think this was an expectation of mine.  It could also refer to the "in sickness and in health" from the marriage vows.  I differentiate between the sickness and the person, even though they cannot be separated.
Maybe S is actually right, everything is my fault and I am still so sick that I can't see it.  If I leave I will only inflict myself on others and never have a relationship even as good?!? as this one.  It will only be worse because no one else will tolerate me like she has.  That S actually HAS been trying all these years, but I somehow subconsciously prevent it without realizing how.  I see that this spew of hatred comes from S, its actually not even mine.  If I'm sick and she's healthy, how come she never sat down with me to calmly discuss our options.  Oh wait, she did, but I was too sick to see and I twisted it to sound like hateful criticism.    Every other relationship I have is way better than this one!    Anyone who's tolerating me needs to do themselves a favor and get the hell out of my life!
I won't be able to come back once I leave and realize I've made a mistake.  Promise?  
I'm afraid I will choose someone else just like S unless I learn from this situation.  By leaving I will demonstrate that I have learned the most important lesson from this relationship.
I'm afraid I've forgotten or never knew how to have a healthy relationship.  I know way more than I ever did in the past, and if I still don't know enough, I'll keep learning.
[/list:u]

Sheesh, when I drag that garbage out into the daylight, its hard for me to believe that these things have been messing me up.  What a load of crap, and almost none of it is even mine!  bunny, thanks tons for the suggestion to just feel it and accept where I'm at emotionally at any given moment.  I still forget that when I'm in the middle of the crap.

As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference.  I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication.

I think you haven't tried every way to communicate with her, because I see things even in the brief description that I'd do differently if I were you. With that said, maybe it doesn't matter anymore. But then I don't know why you care about all the crap she's saying. That shouldn't matter either, right?

Just for future reference, what would you do differently?

Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.

This does not make sense to me. No one publically admits to obstructing communication. Even I would probably not do it!

OK, poor choice of words on my part.  What I meant was to admit not only to me, but to some of the close friends and family that she has blamed me and smeared my name to.

[longtire]

I didn't mean to sound critical, longtire. In case I did, my apologies. I don't see any reason to fix communication with your wife unless you're going to live with her, in which case it might make life easier.

I was also wondering whether you felt in impossible binds as a child? That might make decision-making very dangerous.

Critical, you mean compared to my wife?  Ha!  You're out of you're league with her.  

I really do feel that last comment.  As a child, I felt that there was something very important for me to do to feel alright, but I didn't know what it was.  Neither did my parents (the rest of the known universe).  I basically put myself into cryogenic storage with the hope that one day I would know what the right thing to do was and then I could just do it.  I was going to ask what you meant by dangerous, but then I realized that the decision or action I didn't know about felt like a life and death matter to me.  It doesn't get more dangerous than that.  Come to find out the answer is just to feel my feelings and talk about them with safe people.  I didn't have safe people who would talk about their feelings around when I was a boy.

I wonder what I can do to help heal and give closure for that.  I think I'll try some inner dialogue when I'm done here.

[longtire]

Longtire,
Are you looking for reasons not to end the marriage?  I truly understand the need to hang on.  If my H had not just walked out leaving me no options, I'm sure I would have done anything to try to bring him around.  I, in fact, did do many humiliating things to try to convince him to stay that I now regret with every fiber of my being.  That he took advantage of my vulnerability and used me and enjoyed doing it, is pain I will live with forever more.  But it does give me the strength and conviction to never, ever have any kind of relationship with him again.

No, I'm trying to leave, which I know is the right thing for me.  Somehow, I keep bouncing back and forth and haven't been able to just go ahead and do it, yet.  I imagine you are confused by this.  I know I am!   In this case I'm the leaver AND the one with the ambivalence.  The bounces are getting faster and more drastic.  I hope that means I'm getting closer to just leaving.

After so many years of being with one person, it is very scary to make a change.  There are so many changes that accompany a divorce under the best of circumstances, but when you are dealing with an N personality, it really intensifies.  One thing I have learned about myself during this process is my great fear of abandonment.  I didn't think I would survive his leaving me, but its been 16 months and I am surviving. I am learning what a lousy marriage I had and how much I was depriving myself of the happiness and joy which should accompany a committed relationship.  I can now see the possibility of a future of love and intimacy that I only imagined I had.

I think this is about me and my stuff, and doesn't really have to do with her or fear of losing her.

Perhaps your ambivalence comes from just being worn out.  It is draining to deal with these issues day in and day out and wonder what will happen next.  I know the anxiety I lived with took every ounce of energy I had.  I didn't eat or sleep and lived with constant worry.  You need to find a place where you can rest for awhile and reenergize.  Perhaps then you will be able to think more clearly and figure out what you really want to do.  Think of the process in terms of it being a marathon not a sprint.  There will be many hills to climb before you get to the end and you will need to conserve your energy.

I identify with this.  I have been taking steps to make sure that I eat right and get enough rest.  I still have bags under my eyes, though.  I believe that I will have to make my decision from this position.  Its hard to get the energy to leave when I haven't left yet!  I do believe that the majority of this current energy drain is actually me reorganizing and thats an investment in my future.  Some of it is just plain stress, though.  All of it is hard.  Thanks, Brigid.

[Anonymous]

longtire,

I probably could compete with your wife if I wanted to (fortunately, I don't). I have an idea of what she feels like. I was raised by a shrew, so all of us daughters learned how to be one.

What I would do differently would be to avoid talking about the marriage without a therapist present. I wouldn't talk to her about whether she can keep the house and all that stuff. I wouldn't talk to her about God or Christianity. I would not touch any of that with a barge pole. The way to deal with people like this is to be firm and if they start going hysterical (shrew-like, defensive, hyper-vigilant, bitter, outraged) realize that they are terrified at that moment. They are crazy / psychotic. Therefore you must take care of yourself. Tell her you aren't able to continue this discussion and hopefully you can both call your therapists and deal with the situation more calmly later. If this sets off more hysteria you must tell her that you are leaving the room but she isn't a bad person and it's just temporary. No matter what she does, insist that everything will be okay later but right now we both have to calm down. And call your therapist for help! She should also call hers and if she doesn't, I'm afraid it's her problem. I've been there and the husband cannot help the person who has gone temporarily crazy out of control. She may be speaking lucidly but she is, believe me, not rational. And you can't make her rational but you can help her stay together a bit more by (a) not bringing up loaded topics; (b) being firm; and (c) encouraging her to call her therapist. If she won't, it's not your problem.

P.S. If you are talking about the possibility of separation or divorce in your therapy session, you might ask the therapist how you are supposed to deal with the feelings during the week.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment? If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was. First it was a MUTUAL commitment. It was a commitment to be partners, to share. This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working. As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me. That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.

I believe this is one more piece of the puzzle for me.  I did make a commitment to her that was not based on her behavior.  In hindsight, that was a mistake.  (ya think? )  I made this committment so long ago that I don't rememeber what it WAS based on.  I expected difficulties and strains in the relationship and believed that I needed to be strong during those times.  But, 17 years of neverending "times" was NOT what I envisioned.  She used my commitment against me by saying she WAS committed to me as well, but did not back that up by her other words and actions.  Then my self doubt would kick in and I'd feel bad for giving her a hard time when she was "trying."  This break occurred immediately after we got married.

Didn't you make this commitment to her BASED on her making the same commitment to you?  You are correct your commitment wasn't based on her behavior and I don't think that was a mistake.  I think your commitment was BASED on her mutual commitment to you.  However her behavior INDICATES whether or not she does in fact have this commitment to you.  I think that's how that all works out.  There is no marriage when the commitment is only held by one party.  That's why Paul says to stay with an unbeliever if they want to stay in the MARRIAGE, marriage meaning a commitment BY TWO PEOPLE.  If they don't want to stay you are free.  Now her words at time may say she wants to stay, but her actions show otherwise.  The bible says lot's about that also, about actions being different than the words.  It talks about that for a very good reason, because words are cheap, actions show the heart.  So what is it that she is really committed to, doesn't it all revolve around finances and material things?  The bible speaks lot's about that also.  So again what is she committed to, is it JUST a financial arrangement?  A financial arrangement is not what a marriage is, this was not the agreement that you entered into, it appears that she is not interested in the agreement that the two of you entered into.

[longtire]

I probably could compete with your wife if I wanted to (fortunately, I don't). I have an idea of what she feels like. I was raised by a shrew, so all of us daughters learned how to be one.

God forbid.  I am grateful for your empathy, insight and restraint here.

I agree about not talking about loaded subjects with her, but honestly I'm not sure there ARE unloaded topics between her and I.  I think she uses M, or my presence, as the primary trigger to "justify" her regression.  It is like living with a 7 or 8 year old in an adult body.  Actually, it is that, its not only like it.  I think its only a difference of degree for her and she doesn't really ever come out of a juvenile mindset all the way.  I already knew this, but lost sight of it during my recent temporary insanity.

P.S. If you are talking about the possibility of separation or divorce in your therapy session, you might ask the therapist how you are supposed to deal with the feelings during the week.

The primary topic for me in therapy is "why am I so ambivalent about taking this step even though I believe is the right one for me?"  I will ask my therapist for advice on handling my feelings, but I think you nailed when you reminded me to just feel the feelings and see where that leads me, rather than trying to "do" something about them right away.

I had an inner dialogue last night and reassured "little Thad" that he did not need to keep holding onto making that "Big Unkown Decision" anymore.  I think I convinced him that I'm an adult now, I understand the problem and know exactly what to do about it, and it works with everyone else in my life but my wife.  I also praised him for doing such an excellent job protecting "us" until we could figure it out.  And all without help from any adults!  Good job!

The BUD was how to feel my feelings, acknowledge them, share them with others and get my needs and wants met.  Interdependence.  A lot of my ambivalence has been around this early issue for me.  As a kid I told myself "I CAN'T figure this out, it doesn't make any sense to me," and "I'll go into emotional hibernation until I somehow figure it out one day, even though I can't see how I'll possibly ever do that right now."  The good news is, as a kid I trusted, or at least hoped, that the adult me would be able to figure this out one day.  That makes it a lot easier for my inner child to trust now.

[Anonymous]

longtire,

mudpuppy, thanks for the viewpoint of a mature Christian.

I didn't say I was mature, only that I had been one for 15 years. BIG difference.

It especially helped me to realize that I'm basically useless to God or anyone else in this state.

Sorry about the way I put that. There had to be a better way of saying it. I'm glad you took it the way I intended.

As far as fruits, I feel blessed that almost everything I've done has come out great in my life, with the notable exception of this marriage. I have a job where I get to be creative and make great money. I am working to repair my relationship with my daughter. I lost a lot of weight a couple of years ago and having no trouble keeping it off, etc.

On this I disagree a little, except for the part about your daughter. You have a lot of blessings, but those aren't your fruit. Our blessings come from God, our fruit is what we do for others and whether it comes from the heart. Your fruit is reaching out for years to a wife who rejected you, caring about your daughter, being hurt by the necessity of leaving your wife. Men look at how much you make, how much you weigh, the facade we project. God looks at our hearts and what our heart produces. On that score I think you are a total success. Your marriage didn't fail for lack of effort on your part, it failed because of your wifes heart, or lack of one.
God bless.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Longtire, have you ever had in-depth long conversations with your wife where she displayed a range of emotions and remained rational?  Conversations about important things? I don’t think she regresses as such, I think she’s probably at that age all the time. She isn’t ever at the same emotional and intellectual level as you.

Are you ambivalent about leaving or simply plain scared? Fear of the unknown would be understandable and ‘normal’. Giving up all the familiar things you know could be both frightening and exhilarating. Perhaps your ambivalence is simply procrastination, putting off those powerful feelings of fear and excitement?

Temporary insanity - do you mean not being in control of your thoughts and feelings? That’s not insanity Longtire, that’s probably creativity at work, seeing new possibilities for your self.

[Anonymous]

I agree about not talking about loaded subjects with her, but honestly I'm not sure there ARE unloaded topics between her and I.  I think she uses M, or my presence, as the primary trigger to "justify" her regression.  It is like living with a 7 or 8 year old in an adult body.  Actually, it is that, its not only like it.  I think its only a difference of degree for her and she doesn't really ever come out of a juvenile mindset all the way.  I already knew this, but lost sight of it during my recent temporary insanity.

In that case I would keep 7 year old abilities in mind when talking to her about anything.

The primary topic for me in therapy is "why am I so ambivalent about taking this step even though I believe is the right one for me?"

Maybe you are ambivalent because in childhood there were all these lose-lose situations and no role modeling of adult decision making. You had no idea how people made decisions, on what basis, what was a legitimate reason, etc. I was in the same boat (if this resonates) and I started telling myself, as you are doing, that I am an adult now and the harsh internal parents, and the immature child-like parts, cannot make the decisions anymore. It's no longer their job and they can do something else useful but not that.

Your inner dialogue was that kind of thing.

It seems even as a child you had some inner reserves and that's what's saving you.  

bunny

[mum]

Lontire: I am sorry that so much of this struggle appears to be yours and not so much your wife's. Is that correct? She is just there, not actively engaged in this looming divorce?
Whatever the case, you might consider that despite her failings, she has a life of her own, and staying with her out of pity/ambivelence/fear/guilt or whateverelse isn't truly love is just plain unkind.  Even if she is a "child" in an adult's body, she still deserves the respect of trusting that her life path is hers to own, that she can and will walk on it, and deserves to find that out.  
Even my mean and screwed up ex N has the same opportunity we all have to heal...the lessons will be (and are) presented to him equally.  I honor and understand his path, his right to be a jerk if he so chooses.  I will not hold my breath or be his victim until he chooses to learn, but I respect his humanity all the same.
Just some ramblings on respecting your wife enough to leave her.

[longtire]

Longtire, have you ever had in-depth long conversations with your wife where she displayed a range of emotions and remained rational?  Conversations about important things? I don’t think she regresses as such, I think she’s probably at that age all the time. She isn’t ever at the same emotional and intellectual level as you.

No, we've never had those kinds of conversions, though I crave them from my soul.  I thought we did have them before we got married, but I see that she was either just agreeing with me or saying what she thought I wanted to hear in order to keep me around.  She has admitted to being sexually active with me before marriage to keep me around as well.  Once we got married, even the appearance of verbal, emotional, physical, sexual, and spritiual intimacy ended immediately.

There were some discoveries before marriage like "Wow, I didn't know you didn't like dark chocolate!"  However, there was not any "Wow, I like sex and you don't.  How are we going to work this out?"  From todays viewpoint, I see that it was very shallow and unhealthy.  She used me a substitute for her mother.  It is only in the last 6 months that she has been  able to ever remember that I'm NOT actually her mother, I'm someone else.  I agree that she has never been present as an adult in our relationship.  The counselor we had been seeing (before my wife quit) stated that my wife never developed a personality, just coping mechanisms, and I agree with that assessment.

Are you ambivalent about leaving or simply plain scared? Fear of the unknown would be understandable and ‘normal’. Giving up all the familiar things you know could be both frightening and exhilarating. Perhaps your ambivalence is simply procrastination, putting off those powerful feelings of fear and excitement?

When confronted with the true nature of our relationship after we got married, I couldn't cope and I shut down.  The scale of the betrayal and abandonment was overwhelming to me.  Before I got married I either ignored (love is blind), or minimized the shortcomings in our relationship.  After the marriage, I continued on in denial and started a downward spiral into depression.  I had to address the depression first in order to be able to function on a higher level again.

I couldn't become aware enough to know that I need to leave this bad situation without also becoming aware of my needed growth that I have neglected all these years.  As my awareness about leaving increases, my awareness about growing increases as well.  Its not ambivalence or fear that has been holding me back, though both these are present.  What I thought was ambivalence is really just bouncing back and forth between doing the work of leaving and doing the work of growing.  There is certainly some overlap between them, but I also am seeing a lot of personal growth that doesn't have anything to do with my wife.  Deeper childhood issues and family of origin stuff.

Temporary insanity - do you mean not being in control of your thoughts and feelings? That’s not insanity Longtire, that’s probably creativity at work, seeing new possibilities for your self.

My subconscious has been doing a splendid job of getting my attention lately.  I believe this latest experience was one more demonstration of that.  What I was calling insane a couple of days ago, I'm calling an awakening today.  And more importantly, I'm grateful for it now.  I was not consciously in control of those events, but they were not random or unrelated like they would be if I were truly insane.  These feelings and actions were VERY deeply relevant and helpful.  I FELT insane and out of control at the time, but I just wasn't appreciating and trusting my subconscious co-pilot enough.

[longtire]

bunny, I agree with everything you said above.  I'm not sure that "little Thad" has completely transferred every last crumb of that over to the adult me, but I'm operating from a very different place today than I ever have in my life.  I know that transfer is significantly made already by what I think and feel.  Hallelujah!

Lontire: I am sorry that so much of this struggle appears to be yours and not so much your wife's. Is that correct? She is just there, not actively engaged in this looming divorce?
Whatever the case, you might consider that despite her failings, she has a life of her own, and staying with her out of pity/ambivelence/fear/guilt or whateverelse isn't truly love is just plain unkind.  Even if she is a "child" in an adult's body, she still deserves the respect of trusting that her life path is hers to own, that she can and will walk on it, and deserves to find that out.  
Even my mean and screwed up ex N has the same opportunity we all have to heal...the lessons will be (and are) presented to him equally.  I honor and understand his path, his right to be a jerk if he so chooses.  I will not hold my breath or be his victim until he chooses to learn, but I respect his humanity all the same.
Just some ramblings on respecting your wife enough to leave her.

I agree.  I just need to get enough of my other stuff out of the way so I can make this step.  A month ago or so I listed the reasons why I "felt" I had to stay in this relationship.  One of them was that "I can help my wife heal more by staying here."  The rational self-talk that I responded to myself with said "You haven't so far.  As long as you are around as a convenient whippping boy and distraction, she won't grow.  She may not grow if you leave either, but it opens the door for that to happen."  Basically, I need to give up the last codependent part of that and acknowledge that S has sole RESPONSIBILITY and rights for her own growth.

[Brigid]

Longtire,
My N H is also very immature--emotionally about 16 right now (his son is light years ahead of him at 20).  He also viewed me as his mother for much of our 22 years of marriage which I now believe was the reason for his very limited interest in sex (who wants to have sex with their mother?).

Its always fascinating to me to see the common threads among these postings.

Brigid

[mum]

Brigid, Longtire.  Interesting thought on the mother thing.  My ex certainly treated me the way his dad treated his mother (crappy) except that I never acted like his mom....who is now an agorophobic widow.....I fought back and divorced the jerk, but perhaps that explains all his affairs.  Naw, he just did and does whatever he wants because he wants to and only he counts in his world........still it's a very interesting idea.