My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[longtire]

And there's more....

I failed to make my marriage work.  I tried my best, I grew, I learned, but I still failed in this marriage.  I've been afraid to admit that and its been a terrible burden.  This doesn't mean *I* am a failure.  In fact, *I* have never been a better person in my life!  That doesn't change the fact that I have failed in this marriage.  At the very least, I failed by choosing someone who would not be able to see me and take this journey with me to the end.  Along the way, I've had serious problems being selfish, self-centered, and angry.  I believe that I have taken from this experience all the growth and awareness I can handle, and its still coming.  Don't take this as me beating myself up.  I'm not.  This is just the truth, and admitting it leaves me feeling lighter and more free than I ever remember feeling before.  I admit I failed in this relationship, and I've already pushed myself past my limits.  I don't have to be perfect, which is good.  I'm not perfect, and I don't have to strive to be anymore.  SNAP!!!

I've been operating from a place of emotional deprivation.  On one hand, its been very real.  First, growing up with my parents, and then living with my wife.  The immediate envorinment around me has been rocky ground where hardly anything emotional grows at all.  I've been holding onto this relationship with my wife for fear of getting nothing if I lose it.  Recent experience both here and out in the real world has shown me that there is a world full of rich emotion and plenty of good people to share it with.  I reject the notion that I will lose something irreplaceable by terminating this marriage.  I choose the world, full of emotion and friends.  Snap!

I've been holding onto the idea that there is one true love for each of us out there.  Whether thats true or not, it certainly is not the person I ended up marrying.  I believe that there are many wonderful, sensitive, loving women out there who I could be very happy spending my life with.  Snap!


Its a relief, but exhausting, to be aware of these beliefs, put them into words, respond to them rationally, and make a conscious choice.  Goodnight!

[bunny]

Hi longtire,

I bet your therapist sees you as his biggest success story.

I once read in a Zen self-help book that Life throws a lot of challenges, hardships, struggles, everything, at our relationships and sees if the relationship can tolerate it. If a relationship ends, it wasn't strong enough to withstand all the stuff Life threw at it. No one's fault.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Help!  Well that's it.  I am officially nuts now.  Its not fun, but its not as bad I expected.

I bet your therapist sees you as his biggest success story.

I'm don't know about that.  He probably has a sore neck from watching me play emotional tennis with myself.  Look to the left.  Look to the right.  Look to the left....

I've been coming into a relationship with God over the past 6 months or so.  I've recently joined a church and was just baptized.  So, I thought that I should look to the bible/God to see what I needed to do to divorce in a Christian way.  Well, the bible clearly says that the only reason to get a divorce is adultery, and even then you still can't remarry while the ex-spouse is alive because that would be further adultery.  When you are married in God the two become one flesh that only death separates again.  No, no one in the church told me this, I am not being brainwashed.  This all came out of research and my own head.  Can you see it coming?

After wrestling with this over the weekend, I sat down with my wife and told her that I looked at it and the bible says that I shouldn't get a divorce so I'm not going to.  I won't ask you to leave the marriage or the house.  I won't make demands on you and will trust God to work things out between us.  She said that she was skeptical (she always is) and will wait and see.  She also said that she has always been a good Christian and close to God and has prayed a lot throughout our marriage.  I told her that I was surprised since I hadn't seen it.  When we "tried" to go to church in the past she would always find a fault and refuse to go back.  She got a bit snippy at this point and told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago."  That may be the first correct thing she's said in the last decade.

I had 2 therapy sessions yesterday.  The first was with my old therapist and I talked about feeling uncomfortable with this decision.  Part of the discomfort was that I had made a decision based on feelings and faith rather than cold, hard INTJ facts and analysis.  On second look, I am glad about that because it balances out the INTJ analytical part of me.  We also talked about that any decision I make is good as much as it reflects my values.  In other words, its a good decision if it expresses how I really feel.  Well, this recent decision to rescind impending divorce only reflected PART of my values, not all of them.  Looking back on it after only a couple of days, it was a terrible decision.  Urrrghghghh

The second session was with a church counselor.  After listening to the back story, he implied but didn't say that he thought it was good that I was pursuing MY judgement of things.  I took this to mean making decisions based on my values like the other session.  Looking back even from today, I think I was working out so many other issues (a good thing) that I was not aware of the fact that the decision and committment I made to my wife does not express all of my values (very bad thing).  That decision is inadequate to expressing my needs/values/whatever.

We also talked briefly in the second session about that since my wife has indicated she would like me to be more physically demonstrable, that I should pursue that route to improving the relationship (5 Love Languages and all that).  I didn't feel that I was able to commit to that yesterday but said I would consider it.

Today I am even more incredulous and can't believe what I did!  I don't have a problem with religion, God or any of those things.  This came out of ME.  I realize that I was doing the same thing I always have in this relationship and looking for a way to tolerate an intimacy-less relationship by using religion this time.  Let me say again, I don't blame the church, religion or God.  God is in my life now and that won't change.  But, I used the religious fervor I am feeling to cover up what I was doing so I wouldn't be aware.  In one sense, I'm glad that I actually did something that I didn't analyze to death beforehand.  On the other hand, that declaration to my wife was bogus because it was not a whole decision on my part.

I'd like to hear from anyone and everyone.  I really feel ungrounded at the moment.  Give me the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Anonymous]

For me, there is an order of intimacies.  First is Verbal intimacy, talking in a connected way and finding out about each other.  Second is Emotional intimacy, forming more of a connection, even when not always talking.  Third is physical, like hugging, holding hands, affectionate pats, touching the other person's arm or shoulder, etc.  The fourth is sexual intimacy.  There is also spiritual intimacy which for me seems to go throughout the others.  In other words, I want to talk, then feel, then touch, then be sexual, in that order.  It is hard  for me to jump to physical affection (or sex) when I feel the verbal and emotional intimacy is just plain missing.  Now, Emotional and Physical intimacy are pretty close and even swap around for me sometimes, but Verbal is first and Sexual is last.  I realize that others have very different, even opposite, order of these things.  This order makes sense to me to develop the relationship through talking and feeling before moving to physical contact and sex which can confuse things.  This is what makes it hard for me to take the church counselor's advice to pursue a physical relationship with my wife without having the talking or the emotional connection established first.  I can even see that it might work and could spark a reaction in my wife, but I would have to violate my own principles and suffer the consequences of that in order to do it.

I am a VERY principle-driven person.  If you think I'm bragging about that, think again!  No wonder other people never made a lot of sense to me.  I assumed they were principle-driven like me and their principles were just really screwed up!  I feel like something is shifting in this area for me and I'm losing the primacy of my principles (good thing), but I'm not sure what else is coming into the picture to balance out (up in the air).

What are principles, anyway?  "Rules" to live by because "it" will be better?  Who defines better?  What is "it."  Why do I think that an inflexible principle will lead to better things, even aside from the fact that I can't predict tomorrow at all?  They are my principles so I must have made them up.  Is that it, I'm trying to dump the principles I made up as a kid in a screwed up household?  Maybe I'm trying to dump the idea of living by principles to some extent?  I don't plan to become a serial killer, because of my principles.  I don't think I could give that principle up if I tried.  The principles I'm talking about are not the ones at that level.  Am I confusing principles for something else that I've lumped in there?  How strong should principles be?  Shouldn't (dangerous word) my principles be geared to providing my needs and wants getting met in a consistent, long-term way?

If I don't listen or am unaware of my principles, what takes its place?  Instinct?  Immediate pleasure-seeking?  Random luck?  How can I stop being limited by my principles and find a good balance between principles which lead me to be responsible and trustworthy and ignore the "principles" that seem geared to keep me locked in emotionally miserable situations?

[longtire]

That last was me again, the post timed out on me.

[Anonymous]

Aurghhhhhh!

told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago."

Longtire! This is arrogant, manipulative, shallow rubbish. I couldn't live with this. No thinking person could live with this.

Intimacy? No way with this gal.

Your relationship with your God is your business, no-one else's. Not even a church's business! No! Have you tried Buddhism? *joke*

Your new fervour is linked to you wanting to experience life, it's linked to your new personal awakening. Hey, men wrote the Bible, not God. Maybe the men got it wrong? Maybe they didn't know when they wrote it what marriage would become? Maybe they didn't realise that women would get rights of their own in time?

Is your marriage towards goodness, or towards harm/unhappiness?

That might answer your question. Go for the good. Sometimes it means ditching the bad.

You could stay married but live separately. But unfortunately our human legal systems don't cater for that.

Longtire, you're human. You don't have to be perfect. You can't be perfect.

[Anonymous]

If I don't listen or am unaware of my principles, what takes its place? Instinct? Immediate pleasure-seeking? Random luck?

Okay, principles, morals, self-respect, feeling good about yourself (self-esteem).....do you think you could ditch those and be the same person?No. Your principles are you. Instinct? Well, that would keep you from starving yourself maybe. Pleasure-seeking? Longtire? I can't see it. What kind of pleasure? Maybe the pursuit of knowledge? I can see that! There is nothing wrong in being greedy for knowledge. But greed is a sin isn't it? How about greedy for enlightenment - is that a sin? Nah.

Random luck, ah. It has a huge part to play in our lives, but we fear it. We like to think we're in control, or someone is in control. We fear chaos and uncertainty. Which is a shame because uncertainty = freedom. Bad things happen to good people and that's the way it is. No explanations, no reasons, just the universe doing what it does. Luck, chance probably got you married in the first place. Well it doesn't mean it was right or that God wanted it. You're such a good man Longtire. Keep thinking!

[bunny]

Hi longtire,

I don't think the issue is principles. It's ambivalence. Your ambivalence is massive, and very painful and confusing, because there is something about this situation that you can't bear to relinquish. I don't know what it is. That's something to look at in therapy. It may take a while to learn why you can't surrender to the facts and are still using magical thinking to some degree. Meanwhile you may want to figure out other ways to talk to your wife. What you're doing now isn't working.

bunny

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that what you have now is not a marriage.
LM

[Anonymous]

longtire,
I'm no biblical scholar or theologian, but I have been a Christian for about fifteen years so I can give you my 2c and you can do with them as you will.
I believe you are probably correct about when divorce is scriptually allowed. Other Christians disagree, saying that abandonment and sexual deprivation are also grounds. That is something you should perhaps study further and decide for yourself.
However here is the main point. Jesus tells us not to lie. But I bet if you were approached by a murderer seeking your child, you could lie a blue streak about the childs whereabouts. Is it a sin to lie? Sure. Will you be forgiven that sin? Absolutely. Likewise, have you not raged and screamed at your wife previously? You were forgiven those sins, weren't you?.
Every Christian does things contrary to God's laws, often with premeditation. It is a myth of the world that sincere Christians profess to be better than others. Some charlatans (probably Ns) do, but we know better don't we? We see our own failures every day.
Sometimes, in this rotten world, our only choice is the lesser of two evils. God hates divorce but he also hates abuse. And he especially hates abuse that robs Him of one of His servants.
Right now you are of no use to God because your wife has you turned inside out. You are completely and understandably fixated on the turmoil in your life. It may be that you will have to divorce her in order to survive emotionally. If you do and you believe it to be a sin, you need to ask for forgiveness and it will be given to you. There is only one unpardonable sin and this is not it.
God cares about our heart not our perfection. Look at David. Even after adultery and murder, when he realized his sin and repented he was still called a man after God's own heart. Is your heart right with God even if you disappoint him sometimes? That's what counts.
I won't suggest what you should do. You could seperate from her, you could divorce her or you could try and make it work. It won't, but you could try. I don't know how your daughter (I think you have a daughter) fits into the equation.
Whatever you do decide remember Romans 8:28 "And we know all things work together for good for those who love God.." That doesn't say all things are good, but that he will make something good come from every situation.
And so ends our sermonette for today. With apologies to the assorted buddhists, hindus, atheists etc on the board. He's a Christian so I felt led to talk in Christian terms.

mudpuppy
PS.

She also said that she has always been a good Christian and close to God and has prayed a lot throughout our marriage. I told her that I was surprised since I hadn't seen it. When we "tried" to go to church in the past she would always find a fault and refuse to go back. She got a bit snippy at this point and told me that she"had a lot more experience with God," and that she "wasn't going to listen to someone who just found God 6 weeks ago."

Longtire, Christ said he would know true Christians by their fruits. What are your wifes fruits?

[longtire]

Thanks for reading and replying all.

Hi longtire,
I don't think the issue is principles. It's ambivalence. Your ambivalence is massive, and very painful and confusing, because there is something about this situation that you can't bear to relinquish. I don't know what it is. That's something to look at in therapy. It may take a while to learn why you can't surrender to the facts and are still using magical thinking to some degree. Meanwhile you may want to figure out other ways to talk to your wife. What you're doing now isn't working.

bunny, the most frustrating thing about all this is that I am aware of everything you say.  I am VERY aware of bouncing back and forth and back and forth right now.  I'm horrendously ambivalent right now, and I don't know why, and I don't know what to do about it.  I used to suffer in silence and "numb out" to avoid feeling it or thinking about.  Believe it or not, suffering in great gory, public detail is a huge step forward for me.  But I'm still suffering and I haven't been able to identify or address the underlying problem yet.  I've identified a bunch of things in this thread that are NOT the underlying problem.  I'm starting to get a sense that thinking about it and identifying beliefs and thoughts is not the way to the answer, though not a bad thing in general.  I'm not sure what the way to the answer is yet, and maybe I need to work through all this other stuff before I'll be ready to go there.  I don't know.

As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference.  I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication.  Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.

[Anonymous]

Is the problem possibly that you have made a commitment and it is one of your principles to live by your commitment?  If so I think it's important to look at what that commitment was.  First it was a MUTUAL commitment.  It was a commitment to be partners, to share.  This type of commitment can ONLY exist with BOTH parties working.  As I said earlier what you have doesn't seem to be a marriage to me.  That commitment, which takes two people appears to have been broken many years ago.

[Anonymous]

That last post was mine, hopefully I'll get used to this soon.
LM

[bunny]

bunny, the most frustrating thing about all this is that I am aware of everything you say.  I am VERY aware of bouncing back and forth and back and forth right now.  I'm horrendously ambivalent right now, and I don't know why, and I don't know what to do about it.

Stay with the ambivalence and feel ambivalent. Say to yourself, "I can't decide what to do. I don't know what to do. I respect my ambivalence. It's powerful stuff." Ambivalence may want to tell you something. It may be saying, "You have never made a decision yet--you're still letting your parents do it." It may be saying, "You can't decide because you will look bad and you only want her to look bad." Or, "If you are free and happier than *she* ends up, you will feel the worst guilt of anyone ever!" Thoughts will come up that give you more information. I wonder if some of the ambivalence is about giving up control of a familiar situation...that's what I'm feeling.

As for talking with my wife, I have tried every way I have ever heard of or thought of and nothing makes a difference.  I recognize that's because she's heavily invested in preventing effective thought and communication.

I think you haven't tried every way to communicate with her, because I see things even in the brief description that I'd do differently if I were you. With that said, maybe it doesn't matter anymore. But then I don't know why you care about all the crap she's saying. That shouldn't matter either, right?

Until she publicly admits to obstructing communication between us and commits to stop, I don't see anything I can do and am not putting any energy into trying to "fix" it.

This does not make sense to me. No one publically admits to obstructing communication. Even I would probably not do it!


bunny

[Brigid]

Longtire,
Are you looking for reasons not to end the marriage?  I truly understand the need to hang on.  If my H had not just walked out leaving me no options, I'm sure I would have done anything to try to bring him around.  I, in fact, did do many humiliating things to try to convince him to stay that I now regret with every fiber of my being.  That he took advantage of my vulnerability and used me and enjoyed doing it, is pain I will live with forever more.  But it does give me the strength and conviction to never, ever have any kind of relationship with him again.

After so many years of being with one person, it is very scary to make a change.  There are so many changes that accompany a divorce under the best of circumstances, but when you are dealing with an N personality, it really intensifies.  One thing I have learned about myself during this process is my great fear of abandonment.  I didn't think I would survive his leaving me, but its been 16 months and I am surviving. I am learning what a lousy marriage I had and how much I was depriving myself of the happiness and joy which should accompany a committed relationship.  I can now see the possibility of a future of love and intimacy that I only imagined I had.

Perhaps your ambivalence comes from just being worn out.  It is draining to deal with these issues day in and day out and wonder what will happen next.  I know the anxiety I lived with took every ounce of energy I had.  I didn't eat or sleep and lived with constant worry.  You need to find a place where you can rest for awhile and reenergize.  Perhaps then you will be able to think more clearly and figure out what you really want to do.  Think of the process in terms of it being a marathon not a sprint.  There will be many hills to climb before you get to the end and you will need to conserve your energy.  

Brigid