Author Topic: My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This  (Read 68039 times)

Anonymous

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #210 on: March 23, 2005, 09:47:59 AM »
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He admitted that he didn't know why it was moving so slowly.  I take that as an admission that he didn't really know what to do with me. :) In any case, it was good for me to speak up and do more to set the agenda.  Kind of how its supposed to work anyway, no?


It was totally good for you to speak up. Otherwise he would control the glacier-like pace of these sessions. You are trying to speed this slowpoke up to a pace that feels like some therapy is occurring.


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Well, I have to admit that I'm not the most eloquent speaker in person.


A few thoughts. (1) Does this therapist require that his patients be eloquent and thoroughly understandable? (2) Does this therapist get to assertively tell his patients that they aren't being clear enough to suit him? He needs to take responsibility for his errors in that room. If he can't understand what you're saying, then he needs to ask questions to clarify things -- not criticize you after you criticized him. That's getting defensive, which is an error on his part.

I'm also bummed that when you asked him what your problem was, he quickly answered "Thinking!" and gave an example of a dog that reminds me of the 100-man theory. Does he give homespun analogies to everything? He should not tell you what your problem is so quickly. How does he know? Maybe you have a complex constellation of issues. *sound of mind boggling*

Thanks for letting me vent my feelings, I hope it's not troubling to you. I'm still not saying to dump him. I just find him frustrating.

bunny

Anonymous

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Dog story and other stuff
« Reply #211 on: March 23, 2005, 03:30:48 PM »
Ok, so on the dog thing, *I* got it and thought it was great. :D It felt like my T really was seeing and hearing me and replying in a way I could comprehend.  I'll try to explain one more time. :roll: :D  The dog would feel "bad" in response to a "bad" situation.  It would NEVER blame itsself, because it is INCAPABLE of doing that.  Just because *I* am capable of blaming (believing) myself for causing the situation doesn't mean there is a shred of truth in any of my beliefs.  Its OK for me to just feel "bad" in response to my situation without blaming myself (or anyone else).

The only thing I was doing wrong in my leave/don't leave quandry was blaming myself.  Actually, I was telling myself that there is something wrong with me, no one can like me because *I'm* unlikeable, if I leave this "relationship" I will be incapable of ever having another relationship, this is it, my last chance, I have no other support, I'll die, I'll become a hermit, I can't take care of myself, etc.  No wonder I had a panic attack when I tried to walk out the door!  It was all the B.S. I was telling myself that I "believed" that I wouldn't be OK on my own.  Of course, I consciously don't believe ANY one of those nasty self-talk statements.  I have recent evidence and experience disproving every last one.  I couldn't see that I was stuck in this thought loop of my own creation:

My parents don't tell me they like me.  So...  (starting as a child)
My parents don't like me.  So...
No one else could like me if my parents don't like me.  So...
No on else likes me.  So...
These must be something wrong with me if no one likes me, including my parents.  So...
There is something wrong with me.  So...
I can't have relationships with other people when there is something wrong with me because I will poison the relationship.  So...
I have to figure out what is wrong with me before I can try to have relationships.  So...
I haven't been able to figure out what is wrong with me.  So...
I can't figure out what is wrong with me.  So...
There must be something wrong with me because I can't even figure out what is wrong with me.  So...
There is something wrong with me.  So...
REPEAT


This is the tape that's been playing in my head since I was a kid.  It may come back again, but I know I can say "*I'm* OK, I just forgot for a bit," when it happens.  My T's point was that the only problem was my being stuck in this loop of thoughts (thinking).  I am not depressed, NPD, BPD, AvPD, crazy, hallucinating or anything else.  Well, maybe a bit neurotic. :oops:  :D

Anonymous

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #212 on: March 23, 2005, 03:50:17 PM »
Well thanks for explaining the dog analogy. I still don't get it, because dogs have feelings and I think they even cast blame. But I get the thought-loop deal.

I don't think it's as simple as disproving cognitive distortions with logic. That is important but the thoughts are going to be stronger than the logic. So you need additional things besides logic. You probably know this already.

thanks again,

bunny

longtire

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replies to bunny
« Reply #213 on: March 23, 2005, 04:33:55 PM »
Yes, that was me above, my post timed out.  bunny, I always enjoy getting your take on things.  You always surprise me and make me think!  :D

Quote from: bunny
It was totally good for you to speak up. Otherwise he would control the glacier-like pace of these sessions. You are trying to speed this slowpoke up to a pace that feels like some therapy is occurring.
I agree, and think I have a handle on why things have been going slow.  My T said that he is trying to teach me skills and behaviors to better deal with the situations seem to trouble me, rather than explore abstract concepts.  I realized that is not what I need.  I need the higher level understanding first.  Once I understand the issue from a conceptual level, it is usually blatantly obvious what I can do about it.  Plus I am highly motivated to do it since I understand the costs and expected rewards.  If I don't see what to do right away, it is blatantly obvious what book I need to read to find out what to do. :)  For me, getting the big picture is hard, doing what I need to is realtively easy.  Do you make the behavioral changes first and then understand the big picture later?  I get the feeling that most people do things that way.  Anyone else have comments on this?

I believe this is part of my personality that I see the big picture before I can make sense of the details.  That can be frustrating as h%@# doing it, but I have deep, deep understanding of things when I'm done.  Once I see the forest, I understand the trees.  Before that, all the trees just seem unconnected and confusing.  This is one reason why the whole "just pretend things are good and it will turn out that way" type of counseling or self-help has never worked for me.  When my T stops trying to do things the "usual" way and dives in with me I usually make great progress, just like this time!  Of course, I plan to discuss all this with him next week. :)

Quote from: bunny
A few thoughts. (1) Does this therapist require that his patients be eloquent and thoroughly understandable? (2) Does this therapist get to assertively tell his patients that they aren't being clear enough to suit him? He needs to take responsibility for his errors in that room. If he can't understand what you're saying, then he needs to ask questions to clarify things -- not criticize you after you criticized him. That's getting defensive, which is an error on his part.
I saw my T for 6 years for depression.  I literally couldn't put 2 words together rationally and mumbled for the first year and a half.  (Talk about voiceless!)  He was very, very patient with me.  This time, he was trying to help me be clear and concrete when talking with others about these issues.  His example was that a lawyer would tear me to pieces in court if my wife sued for a "fault" divorce. :x Aside from that, I want to be able to communicate my experience to others as clearly as possible.  Since he was able to repeat back to me all the important points of what I've been telling him, it is clear that he hears and understands what I'm saying.  Did (does) he miss the boat on what communication style I need.  Yes, but I'll straighten him out on that! :D

Part of being verbally less than clear is my INTJ-ness, which leads me to qualify and complicate things instead of being assertive and direct.  I try to be complete, thorough, and brutally honest, often at the expense of getting my point across. :oops: I have been working on that already.  Check out my writing style now, compared to my earlier posts.  I am far more direct now.  Thanks to everyone here for allowing me to practice this.  The other part of being less than clear was the self-doubt coming from that tape running through my mind.  Did I really hear what I heard?  Did I really see what I saw?  I don't have that anymore.  :D :lol: :) :D

Quote from: bunny
I'm also bummed that when you asked him what your problem was, he quickly answered "Thinking!" and gave an example of a dog that reminds me of the 100-man theory. Does he give homespun analogies to everything? He should not tell you what your problem is so quickly. How does he know? Maybe you have a complex constellation of issues. *sound of mind boggling*
I'm thrilled that he did this!  It actually helped me, as opposed to the things he had been trying previously.  I can see how this looks wierd or maybe even wrong from your viewpoint.  But, he told me what I needed to hear in a way that I was able to hear and understand.  I groc'ed it right away.  Also, his answer was for a specific question from me.  It was not meant to be a blanket statment about me.  And finally, I'm sure that if anyone has a complex constellation of issues, its me! :D

Quote from: bunny
Thanks for letting me vent my feelings, I hope it's not troubling to you. I'm still not saying to dump him. I just find him frustrating.
Vent away!  I'm not troubled by it at all.  I enjoy thinking deep thoughts and considering your questions.  It gives me a chance to become aware of a lot of the things I think, but never notice. :) I also find my T frustrating at times.  When he's "on" like this time, he goes right to what I need to hear.  Anyway, I'm not the deflated creampuff I was when I was depressed and first started seeing him.  I take his not handling me with kid gloves now (he used to do this) as a sign that he respects my ability to be me.  Also, knowing that he can take care of himself helps reduce my coddependent impulses.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Anonymous

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #214 on: March 23, 2005, 04:35:01 PM »
Hi Longtire:

Quote
My parents don't tell me they like me. So... (starting as a child)
My parents don't like me. So...
No one else could like me if my parents don't like me. So...
No on else likes me. So...
These must be something wrong with me if no one likes me, including my parents. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
I can't have relationships with other people when there is something wrong with me because I will poison the relationship. So...
I have to figure out what is wrong with me before I can try to have relationships. So...
I haven't been able to figure out what is wrong with me. So...
I can't figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There must be something wrong with me because I can't even figure out what is wrong with me. So...
There is something wrong with me. So...
REPEAT


I've experienced a similar type of circular, negative thinking pattern.  It's hard to break out of sometimes.  I like the idea your T suggested that it's ok for you to just feel what you feel, experience the feelings, without blaming anyone, especially yourself, and to tell yourself:

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"I'm OK, I just forgot for a while!"


If you start back into the old pattern again.  That is because......it is ok to just feel what you feel without blaming anyone, especially yourself.

I need to remember this one myself.   Thanks for posting it all and I'm glad you're feeling better.

GFN

longtire

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #215 on: March 23, 2005, 04:36:21 PM »
That's codependent impulses.  I do not have an unhealthy compulsion toward fish.   :shock:
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Anonymous

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Re: replies to bunny
« Reply #216 on: March 23, 2005, 10:27:48 PM »
Quote from: longtire
Yes, that was me above, my post timed out.  bunny, I always enjoy getting your take on things.  You always surprise me and make me think!  :D


I do what I can... :D

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My T said that he is trying to teach me skills and behaviors to better deal with the situations seem to trouble me, rather than explore abstract concepts.  I realized that is not what I need.


Good. Now you can pick up the pace and not spend session time on stuff you don't need.


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Do you make the behavioral changes first and then understand the big picture later?  I get the feeling that most people do things that way.  Anyone else have comments on this?


I make a quick analysis of the big picture and change the behavior. And at this point I don't need a therapist to coach me on it. You probably don't either.


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This is one reason why the whole "just pretend things are good and it will turn out that way" type of counseling or self-help has never worked for me.


You're way past this.



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This time, he was trying to help me be clear and concrete when talking with others about these issues.  His example was that a lawyer would tear me to pieces in court if my wife sued for a "fault" divorce.


I am rather confused as to why you have to be clear and concrete enough to satisfy an adversarial attorney, when you're in a therapy session. Also I'm a bit freaked out that he threatened you with the image of a lawyer tearing you to pieces.  *sound of mind re-boggling*

At least he got the dog image right and you felt good about that.

I'm glad you are no creampuff.

bunny

sleepyhead

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #217 on: March 24, 2005, 03:22:48 PM »
Hi Longtire, glad to hear you're doing so well and that you don't have an unhealthy dependance on fish :D ! (I seem to notice that you joke a lot more lately, always a good sign.)  I, too, loved the circular argument, I don't think I've ever seen it laid out quite so clearly before (who said you weren't eloquent?)

It's funny you think you go around the subjects because you're INTJ. I'm INFJ, and that's what gets me rambling, feelings popping up that tuen into side tracks (but if I say this I have to explain some of the background), you might win the "contest" for longest post, but I'm sure I win an award for the longest sentences (like this one). You say that you find it easier to express yourself in writing, so why not try this in therapy? I don't mean the whole session, that would really slow things down :) . But maybe if you wrote down somethings before each session that you wanted to focus on, that way you have a clearly expressed starting point and something concrete to return to if your mind (or your therapist's) begin to "stray". Just a thought.

Finally I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You are standing up to your therapist and being assertive towards him, doesn't this imply that maybe he is doing something right? Aren't we supposed to "rebell" against our therapists, I thought this was a sign of progress? But, of course, at the end of the day, only you know what is "right" for you, I just wanted to see things from another angle.

Whatever is going on, you are clearly making big progress, and judging from the last week's posts, I think you're moving pretty fast (now you only need to get your therapist to keep up with you :D ).
Rip it to shreds and let it go - Garbage

Chutzbagirl reply

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #218 on: March 24, 2005, 09:41:37 PM »
Hi Bunny and Longtire,

I enjoyed reading your posts about the whole therapist thing.  Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better?  I've always been a little rebelious against him.   :twisted:

I'm feeling rather blah about mine right now - perhaps more about the whole process than him.  He's a great guy - has helped me detatch in a huge way.  The last time I was in he helped me to see how far I have to go.  I'm bummed.  I want to "graduate", get well, move on.  It is really disappointing to look at how much my childhood with N's has impacted me.

Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress.  Perhaps that is my performing self.  I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age.  Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers.  So where do I start and the false self ends?

It's kinda funny really - I have a horrible time admitting my emotional/neurotic hang-ups.  I want to be able to think my way through these problems.  Feeling my problems after decades of repression can be excruciating.  When I'm in pain I usually tell my T that "I'm too smart for this."  I figured out how to survive the insanity as a kid and thought I was pretty smart.  Now, I need to "dumb down" and just feel.  

Chutz

longtire

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #219 on: March 24, 2005, 11:21:29 PM »
Quote from: Chutzbagirl reply
Hi Bunny and Longtire,

Hi!

I enjoyed reading your posts about the whole therapist thing.  Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better?  I've always been a little rebelious against him.   :twisted:

I'm feeling rather blah about mine right now - perhaps more about the whole process than him.  He's a great guy - has helped me detatch in a huge way.  The last time I was in he helped me to see how far I have to go.  I'm bummed.  I want to "graduate", get well, move on.  It is really disappointing to look at how much my childhood with N's has impacted me.

Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress.  Perhaps that is my performing self.  I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age.  Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers.  So where do I start and the false self ends?

Quote from: Chutzbagirl reply
It's kinda funny really - I have a horrible time admitting my emotional/neurotic hang-ups.  I want to be able to think my way through these problems.  Feeling my problems after decades of repression can be excruciating.  When I'm in pain I usually tell my T that "I'm too smart for this."  I figured out how to survive the insanity as a kid and thought I was pretty smart.  Now, I need to "dumb down" and just feel.  

Chutz
This is a problem for me as well.  I was a smart little kid to figure out how to "put myself away" for a long while until I was better able to deal with all of it.  I'm a smart guy now.  That can help some things, but it just doesn't matter when it comes to feelings and reactions.  If I could have thought my way out of it, I'd have been done a long time ago.  These days, I try to keep my brain in neutral and just let myself feel whatever is going on in the moment.  My natural reaction is usually to jump right in and "solve" the "problem" right away so I don't feel bad about it any longer.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Anonymous

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #220 on: March 25, 2005, 07:13:24 AM »
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Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress. Perhaps that is my performing self. I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age. Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers. So where do I start and the false self ends?


I thought you were INTJ?  Am I confused? Or have I misunderstood something?

bunny

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #221 on: March 25, 2005, 11:35:20 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
I thought you were INTJ?  Am I confused? Or have I misunderstood something?


He was quoting Chutzbagirl's post and the quote-thingee didn't quite work out. He is still INTJ.

bunny

Portia

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #222 on: March 25, 2005, 11:48:46 AM »
Bunny, I just stopped myself doing exactly that and you've done it!

Longtire, you have many people rooting for you. Would you have answered guest above?

Guest, were you really confused?

Can I think of any more questions? Nope :roll:

Best wishes one and all, P

bunny

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My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This
« Reply #223 on: March 25, 2005, 11:49:33 AM »
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Is it true that when we start feeling rebelious against our T we are getting better?  I've always been a little rebelious against him.


I think some rebellion is a good thing.  :D

 
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Each time I go to see my T I want to have made progress.  Perhaps that is my performing self.  I learned how to "perform for love", be charming and needless at a very young age.  Being an ENFP doesn't help - we are natural performers.  So where do I start and the false self ends?


Make an effort not to perform next time and see what happens. If you see yourself performing, tell the therapist that's what you're doing.


bunny

longtire

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Oops
« Reply #224 on: March 25, 2005, 12:44:23 PM »
Oops, as bunny said, my quotes got crossed on that last post of mine. :oops: I was replying to Chutzbagirl, only the last paragraph was mine.  I don't see much chance of not being INTJ anytime soon.  :D  Also, bunny's last reply was to CG, not me.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)