My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[OR]

Long,

I believe GOD had his hand in my marriage, in finding my husband as well as letting him go.

Why would he find my H just to have us break up?

Day to Day living, things being revealed on GODS timing and the smallest detail worked out to get me where I'm at today, in Dallas with my D.

Having faith to listen to your gut, knowing I trust in God and want to do is will. As Mud, said the divorce from a man of a harden heart may be reason to have left.

But if God knows my H is an N, with a small chance of healing , why would he put me with him ?

All I know is doing fearful things is what you must do. Your faith will get you past the panic,  It will be revealed in your mind when the time is right to leave her.

You can't be frozen in fear that things will not work out, jumpping in the water even cold, may be what you need to do. The water will warm up with those that love and care for you.

The time you leave her will be the right time for you, don't worry, or beat yourself up.

I don't understand God's plan for me, but Im sure he has the right one.
I'm confused why he would want divorce for me, but here I am with total trust it's the right thing I have done.

Have trust God speaks to you and you listen with faith.

OR...

[Anonymous]

OR wrote,

I don't understand God's plan for me, but Im sure he has the right one.
I'm confused why he would want divorce for me, but here I am with total trust it's the right thing I have done.

OR, when I feel like this I just go to Romans 8:28 and 29. He will use whatever we go through to make us stronger and help conform us to His image.
God bless you and your daughter.

mudpup

[longtire]

Thanks for being there for me bunny, mudpup and OR (and everyone else sending good thoughts and prayers my way)!  The realistic (good) talk is really kicking the negative talk's butt right now.  Yay!!!    I am closer to leaving today than I have ever been in the past.  The funny thing is, because of my past experiences and feeling torn and having panic attacks, I expected to feel really torn again at this point.  Instead, I feel peaceful and energized.

I belong to a great church now, and haven't heard a single word of condemnation from, or to anyone.  I'm confident that they will support me through this, even if they don't agree its the best course.  Heck, I'm not happy about getting divorced, but it sure beats the alternative.  I'm really pretty new to this, but my understanding is that divorce is a sin, but I get to heaven by having Jesus as my savior.  I don't know if it was ever really a true marriage as OR believes or if it was under false pretenses or just never was possible, or if I'm "supposed" to break free.  I don't know if any of those things will matter or not in the end.  I know I can't find any motivation at all to continue anymore.  I certainly don't know what will happen in the future or whether this is the right thing to do, or whether it is a mistake.  If it is a mistake, then I'm prepared to accept the consequences and keep living.

Yesterday while spilling my guts to a friend I realized that I don't love my wife anymore.  I don't mean I hate her or that there's hurt and distance.  I mean that she's irrelevant to the rest of my life!  The only reason I've stayed so long is that I couldn't figure out how to actually leave before.  I wasn't ready and needed the time and the growth to get to this point.  I take it as a good sign that I am thinking more about the details of leaving again over the past couple of days.  I'm not pushing, I trust that it will all work out when the time is right for me.

I get the image of me as a bat flying blind and letting out these little squeeks ever oncey in a while.  Then I get your "echoes" back and feel like I halfway know where I am and where I am going.  Thanks again!

[vunil]

divorce is a sin

Mudpuppy will get mad at me for this, but, well, (small voice) you don't really HAVE to decide that divorce is a sin.  It may say so in the bible (I have no idea if it does and I don't care really) but I don't think there is a direct quote of Jesus ever saying it.  I mean, his parents weren't married when they made him  

My reading of the new testament (and of every religious text) goes something like:  Be loving.  Do the best you can.  Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, including societal stuff like riches and worldly power and worldly rules.  If you are without sin, throw stones all over the place, but if you aren't, loosen up.  Give people a break, including yourself.  Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.  


Thus spake Vunil.  

I just think that you are hard enough on yourself, Longtire, without bringing anyone Else into it.  I think the big guy is rooting for you, not waiting to condemn you.  He sees what this marriage is like, too.
 

[vunil]

Mudpuppy will get mad

I should have said "might" get mad.  A little N omnipotence creeping in there, sorry!

[Anonymous]

This might surprise you vunil, but I agree with nearly everything you said, and what I don't agree with has nothing to do with longtire's predicament. Also I only get mad at people with evil motives or who are harming someone who is innocent, so I wouldn't get mad at you, you're too sweet for that. And on top of that, I learned some time ago to not get a pregnant lady riled up under any circumstances.

Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.

That is pretty similar to what I told longtire previously. Sometimes we are faced with Hobson's choice. Two rotten choices, we simply have to pick the less rotten of the two. I don't really even know if it would be a sin for longtire to divorce his wife under these circumstances; many Christians believe the withholding of sex falls under Jesus's reason for divorce or at least Paul's expansion on Jesus's words.

I just pray that longtire is at peace with himself when he makes his final decision. Not at peace with the decision, you can never be completely at peace with this kind of thing, but with himself.

mudpup

[longtire]

Mudpuppy will get mad at me for this, but, well, (small voice) you don't really HAVE to decide that divorce is a sin. It may say so in the bible (I have no idea if it does and I don't care really) but I don't think there is a direct quote of Jesus ever saying it. I mean, his parents weren't married when they made him

My reading of the new testament (and of every religious text) goes something like: Be loving. Do the best you can. Stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter, including societal stuff like riches and worldly power and worldly rules. If you are without sin, throw stones all over the place, but if you aren't, loosen up. Give people a break, including yourself. Don't break promises lightly, but for heaven's sake, you are only human-- doubts and mistakes are what the whole thing is about.

Vunil, yes, I double checked the New Testament.  Jesus says its God's will that no man should split up what has been joined.  Remarrying afterward is considered adultery.  It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother.  She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was.  Is that grounds for an annulment. More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes ) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave.  Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!"  How can I not love myself enough to do that?

I prayed about this again today and got the response "Leave, go forth."  Before that its was "Move on." 3 times in a row.  I really don't get the feeling that God is telling me I have to stay, or else.  So why I am having a hard time with this aspect of leaving?  I can even envision reasons that things would be better off getting divorced.  I'd be happier. Maybe my wife might admit she has problems and start working on them.  It might move any of us to the place we need to be in our lives.  Sheesh, 6 months ago I never would have believed that the hardest obstacle to getting divorced would be my uncertainty about what God wants.  I think I'll go along with Vunil's way of looking at it.  Its not a sin because it wasn't ever really a true marriage.  Besides, I agree with mudpup about riling up pregnant women.

That is pretty similar to what I told longtire previously. Sometimes we are faced with Hobson's choice. Two rotten choices, we simply have to pick the less rotten of the two. I don't really even know if it would be a sin for longtire to divorce his wife under these circumstances; many Christians believe the withholding of sex falls under Jesus's reason for divorce or at least Paul's expansion on Jesus's words.

I just pray that longtire is at peace with himself when he makes his final decision. Not at peace with the decision, you can never be completely at peace with this kind of thing, but with himself.

mudpup

It helps to think of this as a decision between two bad choices.  Its funny, but despite being one of us sex-crazed men, its the withholding of sharing and intimacy that hurt me the most. (I would still expect sex to fit in there somewhere, though. )  mudpup, I think you put it perfectly in your last paragraph.  I may not really ever like any decision I make, but I will be OK if I'm at peace with myself when I make it.  That's my goal, torturous as it seems sometimes, to come to peace with myself.

[bunny]

Happy Easter!

It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother.  She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was.  Is that grounds for an annulment.

I don't think it's grounds for anything except getting totally fed up.  

More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes ) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave.  Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!"  How can I not love myself enough to do that?

When people actually tell you what to do, I take it as a sign that they're responding to your presentation. You seem to be asking for permission and approval to leave. People are quite willing to give it to you. For one thing, the marriage is described as painful to the nth degree. For another, you're a really nice man with whom we can easily and pleasurably sympathize. I think you evoke maternal feelings in others.    But we really don't know all the complexities behind closed doors. There may be some decent moments going on. If it were 100% torture, you probably wouldn't be there. You don't seem that self-destructive.

I don't think the choice is really about what God wants. It's about an addictive relationship. In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal.  They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.

bunny

[Lara]

Dear Longtire,
I'm not well-versed in the Bible (sorry, no joke intended!) but it seems to me that a loving God would not want you to live the rest of your life in misery, but in happiness.

Sincerely,
Lara.

[longtire]

Happy Easter!

Happy Easter, bunny!  :D:D How many chances in life do you get to say that?!?!    Happy Easter everyone!

It may be a technical point, but my wife never really left her mother.  She kept her relationship with her mother more important than our marriage ever was.  Is that grounds for an annulment.

I don't think it's grounds for anything except getting totally fed up.  

More to the point, everyone who loves (or at least likes ) me tells me that its a bad situation and I should leave.  Actually, they literally say "Get the hell out, now!"  How can I not love myself enough to do that?

When people actually tell you what to do, I take it as a sign that they're responding to your presentation. You seem to be asking for permission and approval to leave. People are quite willing to give it to you. For one thing, the marriage is described as painful to the nth degree. For another, you're a really nice man with whom we can easily and pleasurably sympathize. I think you evoke maternal feelings in others.    But we really don't know all the complexities behind closed doors. There may be some decent moments going on. If it were 100% torture, you probably wouldn't be there. You don't seem that self-destructive.

I think that one of the things that makes it harder for me is that the more I confront her behavior, the more it goes underground.  Anymore, its not so much the presence of bad stuff, its the utter lack of any good stuff that is driving me.  I have to admit that I reached a point last year where I not only stopped trusting her, I stopped trying to trust her.  The "good" stuff that has been keeping me here recently is fear of confronting my own issues which keep me from leaving.

I don't think the choice is really about what God wants. It's about an addictive relationship. In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal.  They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.
bunny

Panicked, in my case.  I believe that time, intention, and repeated exposure will get me through this resistance.

I'm not well-versed in the Bible (sorry, no joke intended!) but it seems to me that a loving God would not want you to live the rest of your life in misery, but in happiness.

Lara, I figured out that part of  my issues around this is wondering "what if" I'm supposed to stay and everything will work out best in the end by some miracle?  If that's the case it will not be by anything I do, so if there's a miracle coming then I won't be able to resist it anyway.  It will happen "despite" me.  So, I'm continuing to do the best I can to take care of myself "in the meantime."

Well, I started reading "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans this morning since it was next on my book pile.  She lists 10 traits of a VA relationship and says that if you have experienced 2 or more its likely VA.  Well, I had loads of every single one of them. :x:x  I got so angry and afraid after reading that section, that I jumped up and copied documents for the divorce for 2 hours while my spouse was out of the house.  Grrr...  She also lists 19 experiences of "crazymaking," and no surprise, I have experienced all of them.  If I weren't a man I'd be the posterchild for this.  Ms. Evans protrays VA as primarily a womens issue perpetrated by the patriarcy (she actually uses that word) and sees men who are victims of this as a curious anomaly.  I could do without that tone, but so far the book is talking about my experience.

[vunil]

In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.

Bunny, this clarified some things for me to such a strong degree that I am going to go on a really long walk right now and think about it. Wow.  I always  wondered why I stayed in these addictive situations-- I assumed it was a lack of understanding of what was happening.  But truth is I stayed long after I knew just what was happening, sometimes after someone cheated on me, even.  

I think you have pinpointed exactly what I was doing-- choosing the pain I knew over the scary new pain of going through withdrawal.  And withdrawal meant the potential of the primal, original pain (from my upbringing, and from being abused) coming back.  Better to be addicted than to really feel.

Don't mean to highjack Longtire's thread; I just wanted to point out how much this insight means to me.  (and scares me a little!)

[Anonymous]

In an addictive relationship, there is a huge amount of ruminating before the person chooses to bite the bullet and go through the withdrawal. They know it lies ahead and are reasonably hesitant (if not terrified) to go there.

Bunny, this clarified some things for me to such a strong degree that I am going to go on a really long walk right now and think about it. Wow.  I always  wondered why I stayed in these addictive situations-- I assumed it was a lack of understanding of what was happening.  But truth is I stayed long after I knew just what was happening, sometimes after someone cheated on me, even.  

I think you have pinpointed exactly what I was doing-- choosing the pain I knew over the scary new pain of going through withdrawal.  And withdrawal meant the potential of the primal, original pain (from my upbringing, and from being abused) coming back.  Better to be addicted than to really feel.

Don't mean to highjack Longtire's thread; I just wanted to point out how much this insight means to me.  (and scares me a little!)

vunil, the more the merrier on this thread. Besides, I do think bunny really nailed this one.  No more amount of convincing myself that there are problems is really going to help.  I already know that.  Deciding what tough choice I'm going to make is really where I'm at.  I think I was hoping that if I could build a strong enough case, I wouldn't actually have to make my own decision, it would be obvious.  Sort of the difference between deciding and choosing.  I've already decided, now I have to choose.

[longtire]

That was me above.  Darn timeout on logins.

Well, my wife asked me to talk this afternoon and I had a strong reaction to it.  I must be growing, because it doesn't take longat all to figure out what knocks me off balance and how to get back on balance again.

She said that several weeks ago when I had invited her to talk with me, she had a strong reaction to the invitation.  She felt dread, heavy, burdened, etc. expecting that this meant only talking about heavy subjects (relationship issues).  She said what she wants is to just have a lot more fun with me, light talk and learn how to be happy with me again before being ready to tackle the tough relationship issues again.  (Since she quit joint therapy, I have been civil with her and answer her questions, and talk out "roomate" and co-parenting issues.  I have not volunteered any personal information except for any plans that effect her or my daughter.)

I responded that I still feel unsafe talking with her, and that I don't know how feel safe enough to just be "happy" with her without working out some of our relationship issues first.  We agreed to just let that be for a while and think about it.  Despite my growing boundary skills, I don't feel ready to jump into the deep end deliberately yet.  So...

<<<
Things seem to be going better.  My wife actually asked me to talk today.  Maybe if I make her happy enough (submerge my feelings), she might be willing to work on her problems one day.

>>>
Of course she came to me, I haven't been talking with her except for procedural issues.  I haven't been volunteering personal information.  I have been setting and enforcing my boundaries with her.  It seems likely that she has noticed that I'm not chasing her anymore.  (Is she hoovering?  Being nice when I back off, only to return to her old habits when I return to mine?)  Of course things seem better right now, I'm not sharing my true thoughts and feelings with her.  "We" aren't working out any issues.  "We" aren't making any progress.

Give me what I want first, then I'll give you what you want.  How many times did I fall for that eternally unkept promise in the past?  If the pattern holds, I will never be able to make her happy "enough" to start giving me anything in return.  I'm not going there with anyone ever again.  I don't feel comfortable doing that for her right now, so I hold my boundary and say "no."

In a way, I think we both would like the same thing, to feel safe with each other.  Her way is to ignore the issues until she feels safe enough and promise to then work on them when and if that happens.  That's an awfully conditional agreement.  My way is to address the issues and have that be one part of the relationship, along with the fun stuff.  I don't see anyway out of this impasse except for one person giving up their position.  I'm not the person to just give in any longer.

It makes sense that she associates me with fear and heaviness.  I wouldn't take no for an answer, kept bringing up our unresolved issues, kept challenging her defenses and denial, and was angry and resentful towards her for many years.  I feel unsafe, and I am no longer willing to risk my safety around her to try to resolve things.  I no longer feel caring or compassion towards her and am utterly unmotivated to take personal risks for an undemonstrated reward.  I still feel a little guilty about that.  Like I wasn't strong enough to keep loving her, no matter what.  The romantic ideal.  I keep reminding myself that I am only human and that I reached my limits, that's all.  It doesn't mean I'm a "wrong" or uncaring person.

So why do I still get a thrill of delight to find out that she's trying to find a way to work things out with me?  Or is she?  That's my interpretation.  She didn't actually make any comittment to wokring anything out.  She wanted to get what she wants first, then on that mythical day she will start to work on the relationship.  Typical co-dependent stuff, I suppose.  I have to keep reminding myself that her idea of work things out means she gets what she wants, first adn then give to me only if she feels like it.  My idea means that we actually work things out in a mutually beneficial way.  I haven't heard her voice any support for that type of approach.

She also said that she was fine with my not feeling right about getting money for our anniversary.  She wanted to know if I felt the same about Christmas, since we hadn't done anything for each other then either.  I told her that no, this was about our anniversary.  She asked if I would be willing to consider giving each other belated money for Christmas.  (I wonder if this was truly the main reason she talked with me today?)  I told her that I would think about it, but wanted to check out our financial situation first to make sure that is not going to be a problem.

I don't get any sense of comittment, willingness to change, or caring from her.  At this point, I am in the same state.  I no longer care, I'm not willing to commit sight unseen, and I just don't care for her any longer.  I'm tired of looking to her to change those things and being disappointed.  Those are my things, and I accept that that is how I feel today.  I'm no longer going to try to change the way I feel.

[bunny]

She said what she wants is to just have a lot more fun with me, light talk and learn how to be happy with me again before being ready to tackle the tough relationship issues again.

I would not take this at face value. She actually can't talk about heavy relationship issues. Nor does she want "light talk." She wants to be in control, probably by scolding, nagging, and criticizing. That's how she feels safe.

I responded that I still feel unsafe talking with her, and that I don't know how feel safe enough to just be "happy" with her without working out some of our relationship issues first.  We agreed to just let that be for a while and think about it.  Despite my growing boundary skills, I don't feel ready to jump into the deep end deliberately yet.  So...

This was an excellent answer.

Give me what I want first, then I'll give you what you want.  How many times did I fall for that eternally unkept promise in the past?  If the pattern holds, I will never be able to make her happy "enough" to start giving me anything in return.  I'm not going there with anyone ever again.  I don't feel comfortable doing that for her right now, so I hold my boundary and say "no."

Good idea. The quid pro quo thing doesn't work and it's over. She'll have to live without it.

In a way, I think we both would like the same thing, to feel safe with each other.

Bingo.

Her way is to ignore the issues until she feels safe enough and promise to then work on them when and if that happens.

She never feels safe enough. She just decides at some point to deal with you and get it over with as fast as possible.

My way is to address the issues and have that be one part of the relationship, along with the fun stuff.  I don't see anyway out of this impasse except for one person giving up their position.  I'm not the person to just give in any longer.

I agree. She has to give up her position since it was always unworkable and unrealistic. Of course, she may never agree to give up her position.

So why do I still get a thrill of delight to find out that she's trying to find a way to work things out with me?

Because she's your wife and you love her?  

She also said that she was fine with my not feeling right about getting money for our anniversary.  She wanted to know if I felt the same about Christmas, since we hadn't done anything for each other then either.  I told her that no, this was about our anniversary.  She asked if I would be willing to consider giving each other belated money for Christmas.  (I wonder if this was truly the main reason she talked with me today?)  I told her that I would think about it, but wanted to check out our financial situation first to make sure that is not going to be a problem.

Belated Christmas money???! Thank goodness you stalled her. The answer is the same as the anniversary money: NYET.


longtire, she is a little girl.

bunny

[longtire]

Wow, busy day for me.  Thanks for the validation bunny.  I'm grateful that you share your ability to cut right to the chase with me here. I hope to be as direct and insightful as you one day.

Synchronicity?  Unconscious bringing things up?  This afternoon I found a journal from 10 years ago.  Guess what, it talks about exactly the same stuff I am still struggling with.  That was in the midst of the worst part of my depression.  I actually wrote about being 1/4" from suicude before I decided I didn't want to die alone, unknown by anyone.    The issues may be the same, but I am not, praise God!

It is clear that despite massive growth on my part (that's not a brag, I was really screwed up), none of the relationship issues with my wife are ANY different today than they were then.  I've already made the decision.  Tonigh, I can say:

I choose to divorce my wife, be happy, and have a good life.

P.S. From the things I recorded, it seems clear to me that my Therapist bought my wife's load of bullshit from his insensitive comments.  I plan to take the journal to my session tomorrow and find out what the truth is.  Thank you all for being my support through this.  I couldn't have gotten this far without your example and your feedback.  ((((ALL))))