My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification.  Apparently I am not confused and very happy that longtire is still INTJ.

[longtire]

Had to post this quickie.  (Well for me )

Our anniversary is coming up soon.  My wife asked what we were going to do to "celebrate."  I said that I had not really thought about it.  She said that she didn't want to go anywhere or have dinner or exchange "cards that don't say how I really feel right now."  She would rather that we "give each other $300-400 to spend however we want," separately. I said "let me have a day or two to think about it," since that's now my standard response when I'm stunned by what she says.  I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with that.

The interpretation I have was "I really don't like you, but I'll use this excuse to get more money.  Reward me for not wanting to be around you on our anniversary" This falls in the category of "things I can't even imagine myself ever saying to another human being."  I'm not saying I think she should be eager to celebrate an anniversary with me.  I'm glad she is not asking for that because I don't think I could do it right now.  She is acting very nice right now, but I'm not going to be fooled this time.  "Little" things like this show me there are still massive problems between us.

[Anonymous]

She said that she didn't want to go anywhere or have dinner or exchange "cards that don't say how I really feel right now."  She would rather that we "give each other $300-400 to spend however we want,"

Good Lord. Does she have $400 to give you?

I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with that.

No kidding! Here are two of my interpretations: "Prove you aren't going to divorce me by giving me a pile of cash like you always have," or, "I want more cash and an anniversary is a good opportunity to get it."

She is a spoiled little girl. That's all I can say.

bunny

[vunil]

When I asked my T what the basic problem was he pointed to his head and said "thinking!" He put it like this. "If you treated a dog the same way you have been treated, do you think he would start questioning himself?"

Ok, hope this doesn't offend anyone, but your eloquent (and subtle) observation, followed by that whole dog thing really reminds me of Dr. Phil.

I mean, I thought your observation about picking your wife because she reflected how you had been taught to think of yourself was really insightful.  It may have been the most insightful thought you could possible have-- it seems that there is nowhere to go but up from there.  Because everything opens up to you now-- now you can see if you can help your wife reflect something else, you can try to listen differently to the voice in your head when it says negative things, all kinds of great stuff!  I got a lot out of your eloquent paragraph.

And your therapist listens to it and says it would be better if you were a dog.

It just seems too flip, too "television therapist."

Of course, I wasn't there     But for what it's worth I am going to take your insight to heart myself.

[vunil]

How romantic!

"give each other $300-400 to spend however we want,"

Wasn't that a beautiful lovesong I heard once?

If you each give each other the money, why even bother?

If you asked her exactly what she meant by that request, would she be able to explain?  [/quote]

[Stormchild Guesting]

Longtire, do you folks have a joint account? Or separate ones? 'Scuse me if I missed seeing this.

I was going to suggest that you make a date to go to the BANK on your anniversary, and each take out $300 - $400 of your own money; take a good look at it, standing next to each other; and then each of you either puts YOUR OWN MONEY back in the bank or keeps it.

Either way, you're each looking at your own earnings and you (Longtire) haven't been fleeced.  

This only works, though, if you each earn, and you have separate accounts, and she doesn't withdraw $35 K and hop on a plane to the pole of relative inaccessibility (and if Longtire can keep from cracking up during the ceremony). Otherwise you still get fleeced, if she's taking money you earned that is otherwise needed now.

You could even make it black tie, or wear a tux...      

[I'm not at all serious, but feel free to imagine doing this if you're tempted to take her suggestion seriously.]

(((Longtire)))

[vunil]

Stormchild, you are so funny!

Longtire, this is the kind of thing I meant about joking with her to see how she responds.  I am just wondering if she can step outside of herself at all to laugh at absurdities like this.  Sometimes jokes are a good way to say blunt sort of stuff, too, for example "that is a very odd idea, and a little insulting, too."

I mean, I'm not sure what you could do with her idea besides laugh at it.

[longtire]

I told her this morning that "I have thought about your request and I don't feel comfortable doing that."  She seemed a little shocked and asked what my reasons were and I said that "I believe that if we're not doing anything, then we shouldn't DO anything."  It wasn't my most "eloquent" exchange (thanks Vunil ), but I didn't justify.  Yay, boundaries!  

Right now both our paychecks go in the joint account.  I make about five times what she does.  We each get our equal "allowance" back out and put it in our separate accounts.  Bills, savings, therapy, medical, etc. all comes out of the joint account.  Its a bit of a pain, but its the first time in our marriage that we've ever had a financial "agreement" that she has kept her end of.  The only reason she agreed to it this time was the counselor was really pushing her to do it.

It does make things easier for me.  Now I know what I get to spend each paycheck and I don't try to live on whatever crumbs she leaves behind, if any!  Also, if she breaks this agreement without prior discussion, I have no problem transferring my entire paycheck directly to my personal account from now on.    Actually, even if she breaks it WITH prior discussion.

As for joking about it, I have heard so many hateful, sarcastic comments from her covered by a sweet, innocent smile that I don't want to hear anything from her that isn't consistent between message and delivery.  I think in a "normal" relationship jokling could be a good way to bring up emotionally charged topics.  Sort of ease into it instead of a sudden slap on the face.

[Anonymous]

Hi longtire,
You know if you go back to your posts of a few weeks ago and read your posts now, it doesn't even sound like the same person. You are making tremendous strides in getting your feet on the ground and standing that ground.

God bless you and happy Easter.    

mudpup

[longtire]

I've been wavering a bit yesterday and today.  Nothing like what was going on previously.  That was running frantically from side to side taking many steps each time. This feels like standing in place and leaning some back and forth some. This feels like "normal" stuff that I can talk though, so here goes....

<<<
I haven't actually tried EVERYTHING with my wife, because I didn't have very good boundaries before.  Now that I am starting to enforce my boundaries maybe she will change.  (Bad reason, trying to change her.)  If I leave now, it might still be my mistake and my fault that things didn't work out and it was really meant to be.  (I'll live... )

>>>
Having boundaries will help me in every relationship in my life, including my inner one.  I want to have boundaries with people who are basically safe to begin with because they already have their OWN healthy boundaries.  Yes, boundaries will help me in the current situation, but will get a lot more exercise here. I do not want to help my wife change.  I don't want to wait around for who knows how many years to see if and when and how much she changes.  I have grown and I have tried in good faith in terrible emotional circumstances for a very long time.  I have tried "enough."  For the love of God, I tried to work things out with her when I was in the depths of depression and she was blaming me for literally every problem in our marriage!!!!!!  I have tried enough.

<<<
The last thing I told my wife is that I have to stay because God hates divorce so I can't get one and I wouldn't kick her out or leave or put pressure on her anymore.  (Yes, yes, I KNOW.  That was one of those icky, crazy swings.  No, that isn't what I really believe.  Keep reading.)  Things seem to have gotten less stressful since then.  Maybe she will be more willing to work on her stuff if I continue to NOT try to work things out with her.  (I need an emoticon for vomiting about 8 times in a row right here!)

>>>
I felt the need to put pressure on her to stop treating me like crap because I didn't enforce my boundaries and she was acting badly.  I am enforcing my boundaries now.  I still don't want to put pressure on her in any way because that still makes ME responsible for working to get HER to act decently.  In a healthy relationship I would be able to just talk with the other person and explain what I want.  Then, if that is something they can do and they care about me they can choose to do it or let me know they are not able to.  My wife is not able to talk about ANYTHING relationship-wise right now, let alone in an open, honest way, let alone to consider me or my feelings as a human being.  Not trying to leave when I clearly wasn't ready has helped me to calm down and given me time to work through more of my childhood issues.  I may feel guilty about breaking my word on this, because being honest and trustworthy is really important to me.  However, I can't have a 2-way discussion with her on this, so for my own safety I need to wait to tell her I changed my mind until I am ready to walk out the door.

<<<
Maybe I am screwed up and she has been right all along and I still can't see it.

>>>
Bullshit!  I have tried to work things out between us in various ways over many, many years when I was not only NOT getting my needs met, I was putting up with her verbal and emotional abuse.  I won't do that any longer.  Not with her, not with anyone else.  I wasn't perfect, I got angry a lot, I held onto resentment, but that does not mean that I caused the problems between us, just that I am human.  I am a caring person with a lot of strength and other good stuff to offer.  I won't allow that to be denigrated and despised any longer.  The one true mistake I made was to originally choose and stay with someone who only repeated back to me the nasty, self-hating things I used to tell myself because I didn't know any better.  I've learned since.

<<<


>>>
Is that all you've got?!?!  C'mon, I could go on all day long.  Come back if you find with anything that isn't a complete load of crap.  I'll be ready!  


Wow!  Where did all that come from?  It feels great to point my anger toward anything that is tells me NOT to take care of myself or that I'm NOT a good person.  Take that!

Really connecting with the fact that there is nothing inherently wrong with me as a human being let me drop the idea that I have to expect to be treated badly because there is something wrong with me and I don't deserve to be treated better.  Bullshit again!  Since there is nothing wrong with me, I can have good relationships with people and I don't have to be afraid of being abandoned like I did as a kid.

Not being afraid of being abandoned anymore, I have been able to face the fact that I have not loved or liked or even respected my wife for many, many years.  Maybe ten years!  Yikes!!!!! I thought that getting better in therapy would fix the problems, since I erroneously thought I was somehow causing the problems at that time.  Funny thing is, the more I grow, the more I accept responsibility, the less I want her in my life.  My growth hasn't fixed the relationship problems because they weren't the problem to begin with.  Not loving, liking or respecting my wife makes is damn hard to make and keep commitments because I don't EVER expect to get back what I need or want.

I've been staying for a long time because every time I tried to leave in the past I had a panic attack of abandonment leading to death.  Since I felt that I couldn't leave, I tried to make the best of the situation and work for change, even though I saw NO way to ever get what I want.  Eventually I changed enough to really address my issues and grow enough to TRULY consider leaving.  Hopefully that will happen sometime soon, when I'm ready.  I don't love my wife and can't see any healthy to stay.  This is and has only ever been a legal marriage.  Not emotional, not spiritual, not godly.

I undertand that God hates divorce.  Me too! However, I do not believe that he ever wanted this "marriage."  I believe he can use every bad thing to good ends and I have grown tremendously because of it, but he doesn't cause the bad.  A "marriage" where one spouse has never been able to fulfill their role to the other is not a valid marriage.  I believe that I can face God on the last day and not be ashamed of this choice.

[Anonymous]

Hi longtire,

Did you know that the Jewish religion allows divorce? If two Jews get divorced (a common occurrence), they have to get a religious divorce decree from some rabbis in addition to the civil divorce. IOW God is okay with Jewish divorces, if not Christian ones.

Anyhoot. I don't know whether or not you need to divorce your wife. She is obviously a b$()# and a shrew, mercenary, immature, a shrill harpy, deeply irritating and frustrating. But maybe there is an arrangement to be made here. You could remain married but live elsewhere. You could live in the same house leading separate lives. I was divorced years ago, and what happened was that I suddenly KNEW I could not spend another day in that marriage. Nothing could have persuaded me to stay in the same apartment for another hour. Maybe that will hit you too. Until then, it doesn't really matter. Just enforce your boundaries and do whatever you want to do. Life is too precious to keep beating on yourself.

bunny

[longtire]

Anyhoot. I don't know whether or not you need to divorce your wife. She is obviously a b$()# and a shrew, mercenary, immature, a shrill harpy, deeply irritating and frustrating. But maybe there is an arrangement to be made here. You could remain married but live elsewhere. You could live in the same house leading separate lives. I was divorced years ago, and what happened was that I suddenly KNEW I could not spend another day in that marriage. Nothing could have persuaded me to stay in the same apartment for another hour. Maybe that will hit you too. Until then, it doesn't really matter.

I don't want just a separation, I want a divorce and a clean break so I can go on with my life.  I know what I want, its actually doing it without having a panic attack that's been the problem.  

Just enforce your boundaries and do whatever you want to do. Life is too precious to keep beating on yourself.

I agree completely!

[Anonymous]

bunny wrote,

Did you know that the Jewish religion allows divorce? If two Jews get divorced (a common occurrence), they have to get a religious divorce decree from some rabbis in addition to the civil divorce. IOW God is okay with Jewish divorces, if not Christian ones.

The Pharisees asked Jesus if it was OK to get a divorce. He told them Moses had given them permission to divorce for any reason but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. He then told them what God's preferred plan for marriage was. It went over like a lead balloon of course.

Longtire, maybe you should convert to Catholicism and get an annullment.   No offense to any Catholics out there, just a little joke.

mudpup

[bunny]

The Pharisees asked Jesus if it was OK to get a divorce. He told them Moses had given them permission to divorce for any reason but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. He then told them what God's preferred plan for marriage was. It went over like a lead balloon of course.

Am I going to hell....?

bunny

[Anonymous]

He said divorce was a sin except under rather limited circumstances, he didn't say they were going to hell because of it.
Thank God it is not my place, nor in my knowledge who is going to hell. Only God knows the heart.
I have always maintained we will be in for a very large surprise by who we meet there and who we don't.

mudpup