My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[vunil]

Hi, Longtire!

Is your therapist someone you can get into a scrappy conversation with? Because I agree with Portia that  it's *possible* he is being purposefully obnoxious/critical to get you guys to a deeper level of communication.  It would be super-easy to tell-- if you call him on it (ask him about it, express your feelings about it, whatever) and he has no idea what you are talking about and just repeats something to the effect of he has judged the situation to be xyz amen, then you know.  If he is very calm as you talk and then really has a conversation with you about how you are feeling, then that may be groovy.


The comment about finding someone else to agree with you could be two things.  He could be a guy who has to pronounce the utter Truth at all  times, in which case he shouldn't be a therapist and you should run away.  Or, he could be saying "let's move to a new kind of conversation where you argue with me and let me see what's brewing in that thoughtful head of yours."  Maybe he can tell there's stuff happening in your growth and your thoughts that he isn't privy to and he wants in.  That could be great of him.

So who knows.  You might have more support than you think

[Anonymous]

Hi Longtire and all:

Yes, I'm seriously thinking about finding someone else. I would like to find a therapist who can give me some empathy and validation WHILE helping guide and nudge me forward. Sheesh, its not like I lack motivation or some awareness in this area. I don't care if her behavior qualifies as abuse, controlling behavior, or any other term. I want help in figuring out why I chose it, why I kept putting up with it for so long, and why I'm NOT going to do that in the future.

I think you are saying that you don't feel empathy from your therapist, and that your experiences/feelings have not been validated by him, and that he is not encouraging you to move forward??
This is poor therapizing, if you ask me.

Your therapist stated his opinion of your wife's behaviour.  He needs to keep his opinions to himself.  You are not there to discuss his opinions or his feelings.  He needs his own therapist for that.
You feeeeeel abused and therefore your feelings are valid, whether he agrees, has opinions that agree, or not.  Imo, he fails the therapist test right there.  He sucks.

Also, if this "therapist" doesn't recognize the abusive behaviour of your wife, he may not realize it when you start describing your childhood.  He may not validate or empathize with your feeling abused and you may end up feeling discouraged further.  You don't need that.

GFN

[bunny as guest]

vunil, portia, longtire,

A therapist who is worth anything doesn't play childish baiting games with a patient. If he is arguing to "get a rise" out of longtire he has serious deficiencies as a therapist. He can make an interpretation comparing the marriage and the therapy. That's what a good therapist would do. I don't believe this therapist is trying to bait him on purpose. But he is acting out and he's the therapist! I think this person is inadequate in theory and training. Somehow he doesn't have what it takes. So he's screwing up.

bunny

[P as guest]

bunny
I wasn’t saying the therapist is playing a game to get a rise. Sometimes it is the therapist’s job to challenge a client’s behaviour and thinking. Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.

Only Longtire and his therapist know the answer here and it’s up to Longtire to talk to his therapist about these particular issues and decide for himself whether the therapist is saying these things because he’s knows what he’s doing, or because he’s a dork.


Longtire
I don’t know which is the case and I don’t advise you either way. This is up to you. I hope I’ve given you an alternative interpretation. portia

[Anonymous]

I wasn’t saying the therapist is playing a game to get a rise. Sometimes it is the therapist’s job to challenge a client’s behaviour and thinking. Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.

The way it was described wasn't a challenging conversation (imo). It was the therapist giving his definition of abuse and telling longtire he didn't see abuse according to that definition. For all I know, longtire asked him what his definition of abuse is. I see it as an impasse in the therapy. And yes it is up to longtire what to do about it.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Therapy is about changing and outgrowing your therapist. If that can be achieved by having challenging conversations, then that is valid therapy.

Here are my thoughts on this.

If there is a patient who needs to outgrow a therapist than that is what the therapy will be about.

If there is a patient who needs their reality validated, therapy won't be about outgrowing the therapist. It will be about how to validate reality.

If there is a patient who works well being challenged and confronted, the therapy will probably include that.

If there is a patient who desperately needs someone to understand him/her, challenging and confronting will further traumatize them.

Therapy has different purposes, outcomes, goals, etc.


bunny

[vunil]

um, I didn't say I thought the therapist was playing a game!

[Anonymous]

If a therapist is being purposely obnoxious and critical to make some point or challenge a patient, then he would be playing a game. (imo)

bunny

[bunny]

My apologies if I put words into anyone's mouth. I didn't mean to do that. I think an old memory of mine came up. I was literally horrified by the thought of a therapist manipulating a session by purposely acting a certain way...now I remember when I saw my "first therapist" as an adult, I was certain that she, and indeed all therapists, tried to get the patient to react by purposely goading or provoking them. So you may have brought up old memories where I deeply feared the therapist and their manipulations. I hadn't realized until a few minutes ago.

Again, I'm sorry.

bunny

[vunil]

Yuck-- I see your point.  It would definitely make the whole relationship fall apart.

[Stormchild]

Hi Bunny

I had to 'fire' two different therapists because they took sides, and clearly weren't on mine.

One of them was totally conned by a manipulative alcoholic I was involved with (who was sober when I met him, but not in recovery, and resumed drinking once he thought he'd 'caught' me). When my immediately-afterwards-ex finally showed up at a joint session late, drunk, and abusive, and heaped invective on me over nothing, then stormed out, I remember looking at the t and saying, "So... do you believe me about him NOW?" The t had the decency to apologize, but it was too late. He'd believed my ex and disbelieved me for no other reason, as far as I could tell, than that my ex was male and a smooth talker, and I was female and not hiding my emotions.

The other one was bound and determined to sell me on the idea that I was genetically defective and doomed to a life on anti-depressants because losing my entire family to death and estrangement, losing several beloved animals, and becoming (temporarily) homeless due to stalking - all within the period from 1997 to 2002 - finally brought me to my knees with a clinical depression in late '02. This one applied a stigma with both hands as hard as she could press, and was very angry at me for not accepting it (!). The interesting thing here was that the less depressed I became, the more hostile the therapist became. I've never seen such a negative countertransference in my life, and I hope I never do again.

Challenging these two ts was definitely not as constructive as spending the time and $ with ts who could hear me, and were committed to my welfare, would have been.

This is a long winded way of saying you're not alone - my previous experiences affected my response to Longtire too. I erred on the side of wishywashyness, because of them.

Whew!

(Longtire, I decided to go ahead and post this stuff because, who knows, it could help you somehow, to read about these experiences.)

[longtire]

Wow, something really lit a fire under everyone on this one!  Me included!  I didn't have much of a chance to read or post today and just got caught up in my reading.  I think that I'm going to try to respond in broad strokes, rather than details.  Keep posting!

I certainly don't feel supported or validated by my therapist.  I don't hear things from him that I would even remotely consider validating.  If he is playing games rather than talking openly with me, then I'm going to find someone else.  I don't care whether it is intentional or not anymore.  I deserve better.

I left out the kicker from yesterday.  I was getting tired of having him tell me I was not correct in various ways without offering any suggestions or reframing, interpretation, explanation, or otherwise being helpful.  So, I told him I believe that the therapy is not being very helpful and asked him what he thought was going on in the session.  He said, "You don't want to listen to what I think!"  I told him that I was trying to understand and did want to hear what he thought.  That's when he told me that he wasn't being supportive because he didn't believe that my wife's behavior qualifies as abuse.  (At least then I could understand why he keeps telling me "No, I think you're wrong" without offering any other feedback.  Not , that I agree with him.)

It took me until this afternoon, but my boundaries from his "You" statement now say back the hell off!.  Tell me what you think and I'll honestly tell you whether I wanted to hear it, I agree with it, or I have any other reactions, feelings, or thoughts about it.  Don't define me because you can't handle your frustration or whatever.  You ought to know better as a therapist.  Even I am learning this!

As bunny surmised, I then asked him what his definition of abuse is.  So he told me.  At least he was talking about what he believed instead of just cutting down what I had to say with no explanations.  I may not understand or say things right the first time, but here I am voluntarily paying for therapy!  I think that says something about my level of commitment.  I deserve better treatment.  At the end of the session, he did apologize for saying "Stop" (in one form or another) to interrupt me over the years and said the he would not do that with me any longer since it "doesn't seem to be helpful" for me.

I've written about 8 pages worth of my experience and keep deleting it because it all points in the same direction and I really don't feel the need to further justify or explain having a problem with this behavior from my T.  I will go to the next session per the patient contract and discuss this with him.  This agreement is intended to catch a patient who is running away from the pain brought up in therapy.  I don't think this is the case (I've had a LOT worse pain), but I'm willing to listen to reasonable discussion about it.  Honestly, I would just like to find someone to help validate me (core unmet need?) while giving gentle guidance when I stray.  More "Have you considered this?" kind of thing than "Stop" or "I think you're wrong."

Stormchild, you mentioned that I can take this on because I've got all of you here cheering me on.  I realize that and am grateful every day to have everyone here to talk to and get support from.

Portia, I do think it is abuse.  It certainly is controlling, rather than caring behavior.  His opinion does not change mine one bit.  I believe that he doesn't understand the situation, because he keeps cutting me off telling me that my judgement is wrong, he disagrees, he has a different definition, etc.  He hasn't even heard 99.999% of all the things that have gone on, because he keeps trying to disprove each example as I bring it up.  You asked whether we are working my childhood issues with his behavior this way.  Maybe, but if so he underestimated me.  I've certainly outgrown his behavior.

I agree with bunny that this is an impasse in the therapy.  Keep in mind, this same sort of thing happened previously when I tried to discuss issues that came up in relation to my wife.  I was depressed then, so I gave up even mentioning anything about it.  I stuck around for the things he was able to help me with and then left therapy to continue on my own for a while.  This was the reason I was hesitant to go back and see him again, remembering how distracted and unhelpful he got the last time I brought this stuff up.  If its a technique, its too deep for me, and I am pretty deep.  If not, then he just can't help me with this and I need to find someone else.  At least I'll know.

Growing up I experienced a severe lack of validation, feedback, emotional interaction, etc.  I think I need to get over that to grow out of co-dependency and maybe even some relationship addiction.  I don't know how to get over that right now.  I am still operating at a lifetime deficit for touch and emotional conneciton.  This group helps a lot for the latter. I can handle the confrontation in therapy when there is a point.  Simply saying "Stop" or "I think you're wrong" doesn't help.  I believe that having a realistically validating environment to do this work in would help me.

Enough for now...

[longtire]

LM, I decided to reply separately to your post since it raises some good points that didn't really fit in my previous reply.

This is just my perspective on this, take it or leave it.  (I don't have my spell checker set up yet so bear with me please.)  It seems to me that you feel, believe that your wife's main interest in the marriage is financial.  So you feel used (abused) by her as being nothing more than a money bag to her.  If this is correct that this is how you feel, have you explained this to your therapist?

I believe that my wife is operating from an immature point of view and looks for someone to take care of her.  (I recognize this in myself as well.)  Money is one aspect of that.  I also believe that she spends to feel more in control and powerful.

I have a lot of thoughts on your situation so I'm just going to express them.  You both were young and damaged when you were married, and this marriage was precipitated by a pregnancy.  As can often be the case in such a situation, one person is avoidant of intimacy and the other person is desperately seeking intimacy.

Yes, not having any couple time at first when getting married may have been the death blow to an already at-risk relationship.  My wife went straight from momma's little girl pampered at home to expectant mother and wife.  

I also think intimacy is something one must first experience with oneself and God and only then are they ready to experience it with another.  Also another person is not capable of totally fulfilling our needs of intimacy and because of that I think that one's primary source of intimacy has to be between oneself and God.  I think this is what you need to understand in order to avoid getting in this situation again.  I would also be cautious with looking to your parents for "support" at this time.  They did not adequately support you when you were younger and I don't think their support would be actually helpful and possibly a detrament from you actually dealing with the childhood issues that brought you into this situation in the first place.

I think that feeling connected to God "no matter what" is what is enabling me to grow after many years of stagnation and numbness.  I agree that this is an irreplaceable element in not repeating mistakes of my past.  I'm sure there is more I need to know and grow than just that.

When I say that my parents support me, I mean that they listen to me (though they sometimes seem uncomfortable) and tell me that I will always be their son and will always help in any way if I need it.  I do not get the same kind of deep understanding and support and love that I get from people here. I believe they are doing their absolute best and have seen them grow over time.  Its enough.

I believe your wife has been successful in fulfilling her unhealthy needs of avoidance of intimacy and you have been a participant of this for a long time.  I'm going to talk about this a little more at the end of the post.

Given her past, it makes sense that she might panic at the prospect of intimacy, too close to enmeshment.  Obviously, my fear of abandonment and childish "not being able to take care of myself" has caused panic that kept me from leaving.

I agree with your therapist that the discussion you had with your wife concerning the budget was not an example of poor communication but instead a normal healthy conversation.  I did not find your wive's comment of "Was the car work an emergancy?" to be totally out of place.  Yes it was a bit of a dig, but even normal people do these things and so I don't find that this was totally out of the scale of "normalcy".  I also think your comments that she "interupted" you with the comment were a bit out of place.  A husband and wife who are DISCUSSING things don't interupt but contribute to the conversation and if you view her contributions as "interuptions" than I think this is a problem.  If you don't want her to be a "little girl", be careful not to treat her as one.  At the same time I understand your frustration with her lack of concern in the past with sound financial planning.

If this were an isolated incident, I would agree with you to some extent.  Maybe not great communication, but not terrible either.  When my wife is not blocking comminucation, she primarily communicates with me through digs.  She deflects discussions about her issues by trying to prove that my issues are worse, so therefore she was fully justified in whatever she did, no matter what it was (Rather than discussing what happened and being curious about it and making adjustments to be happier).  I believe her reason for bringing up this topic in the first place was because she believes that I was wrong and wanted to "prove" it.  Also, I have many years of experience with her interrupting, snorting while I talk, rolling her eyes at me when I talk, telling me "That didn't happen" so she can justify refusing to discuss things, etc.  She seems to have a strong need to deny or invalidate so that she does not need to be aware of her feelings and behavior.  The original point I was trying to make with that anecdote was that regardless of my feelings, I was able to NOT react this time and handled that situation way better that I would have in the past.

In my ideal relationship, we would each listen respectfully to the other, without trying to find ways to deny the other's experience.  No interrupting, no denying, no disrespect, no trying to find ammo to use against the other, etc.  (Yes, both of us, including me.)  I believe that many times she denys my experience because she is too afraid to even be aware of, let alone share her own.  (No matter how willing I am, I can't hear her if she chooses not to talk about it.)  She could respond to my experience with anything from "Oh, Ok," to "I don't care," to "I'm sorry that you felt hurt," to "Grow up!" to "I'm sorry that my issues are effecting you."  She would not need to deny my experience, she could offer her own, even if that's "I didn't realize you were upset," "I don't remember anything happening, but tell me what you experienced," to "I was in a bad mood and took it out on you!"  (Methinks she doth protest overmuch that nothing has ever happened in our relationship where she was in the wrong.)

Growing up, my wife was emotionally overrun by her mother.  My wife felt she had to keep her mother literally alive by supporting her emotionally with people problems and her black sheep brother, submerging her own needs and personality to be at her mothers instant command, always listening to the same stories over and over (brainwashing), always sacrificing her own wants and needs to be ready to meet her mother's, avoiding her mother's guilt trips, telling her mother how to pay all the bills at 8YO .  My wife learned that the ONLY way to take care of a relationship is to give yourself up and say nothing.  It was only about 6 months ago that for the first time in her life she actually realized that I am NOT her mother and am NOT "exactly like" her mother.  Unfortunately part of her knew all along that I am not her mother and I was not out to dominate her like that.  So, she let all those years of frustration, hurt, loss, and rage out at me.  Then, to preserve the relationship because she still feels like that little girl, she either dissociates while she does it or suppresses it and denies that there ever was an action or reaction from her.  It the last part that prevents her from even being aware of what she does or how she feel, let alone to ackowledge it and work through it.  Fundamentally, I believe that my wife does not comprehend the concept of a relationship between two equals.  She was raised to believe that EVERY relationship is a power struggle and you are either the one-up in control or you are the one-down victim.  Growing up, she always had to be the victim.  In that role she is the martyr, just like her poor suffing mother.  She does not speak about anything and keeps her silence to "preserve" the relationship.  When she switches to the other role, she feels power and control, but also such fear and shame that she either dissociates while she does it or denies it afterward.  I hope that one day she will wake up and realize that whole flawed viewpoint is her mother's doing and just take her own power.

I think the idea of a belated Christmas gift of money for the two of you, after suggesting an aniversary gift of money is not within the scope of "normal" considering the situation of your marriage.  It makes me think she wants money right now for something and I would be intent on finding out exactly what is going on there concerning that.  At the same time I think I would make it clear to her that you feel that she is only interested in the financial aspects of the marriage if this is how you truly feel and let her know that such suggestions on her part tend to make you feel this way.  I would definitely bring this up as an example to your therapist.

After everything else going on in therapy, I don't really see a point to bringing this up in there.  In another setting, it could be absolutely innocent.  There are a couple of the reasons I believe it is about the money for her, at least at this point.  First, when I started waking up, I asked her if she could find even a tiny spark of respect or care or tolerance for me (never mind like or love!).  She said she could not, but didn't want to get a divorce because she wasn't miserable, but also not really happy.  After I told her I wanted a divorce, all she could talk about was money and made angry comments to me like "Must be nice to have all the financial power!"  Never mind I workd my butt off for 20 years to get that power!  She didn't ever seem to realize things like that.

Back to your wife's avoidance of intimacy.  I'm not really sure you are at the point of being ready to give up this relationship.  Your teeter tottering gives me this indication.  Are you sure you don't want to give it one more all or nothing chance?  If you don't that's fine.  If you do I think the both of you need to get serious.  She needs to stop leaving the house and the two of you need to start doing things together.

The back and forth is what I wanted help with in therapy. I have given this many, many chances.  I get none of my emotional needs met in this relationship and instead have to find ways to protect myself from it and places to get refilled to be able to withstand it.  I at least want to have the possibility of a physical and sexual relationship in my life at some point.  My wife has not been able to discuss this AT ALL for at least the last 10 years!

I have to say I'm a bit concerned with the dynamics of what is going on in your household now.  You and your daughter going out to dinner, watching TV together, etc, while your wife is out who knows where, doing who knows what.  Seems to me that you and your daughter are doing husband/wife things while your wife is out doing teenage girl things.  I think this needs to stop for everyones sake, including and especially your daughter's sake.  This is not normal.  How does your wife and daughter get along?  Do they go out alone together ever?  If your wife and daughter also spend a lot of time alone together I retract all that I have said here concerning this and what I am about to say.  If your wife and your daughter don't spend much time together and you or your wife aren't willing to put a serious effort into your marriage (by her stop going out alone and the two of you, you and your wife doing things together AND the three of you as a family doing things together) then I strongly suggest you and your wife AT LEAST seperate until you decide what to do so as this what appears to be an unhealty dynamic with your daughter does not continue.

Actually, due to her work schedule, my wife spends a lot more time with my daughter after school.  At least she did until my daughter got her license and car. Due to my work schedule and my daughter's busy social life, I usually need set aside time with her in advance, like for dinner. Last night, she was getting ready to brush her teeth when I walked by and we started talking.  My wife was already in bed and my daughter had just gotten home from being with friends.  I ask her some questions about how things are going at school and the latest teen drama.  She tells me and I validate her experience.  I try to slip a lesson or a suggestion in every once in a while (its a dad thing).  I tell her I love her, give her a hug, and that's it.  I don't believe that there is anything unhealthy going on with my relationship to my daughter (could you be projecting?  Seems like a lot of that going on here the last day or so).

I hope this doesn't come off as too critical and again this is just my perspective and I'm not in the situation so I can be way off on things.

Even if you were critical, I wouldn't take offense. I like good questions, they make me stop and fiure out what I really believe.

[P]

Hello Longtire:

"You don't want to listen to what I think!"

"No, I think you're wrong"

At the end of the session, he did apologize for saying "Stop" (in one form or another) to interrupt me over the years and said the he would not do that with me any longer since it "doesn't seem to be helpful" for me.

I wonder, did he genuinely apologise – i.e. take responsibility for something that doesn’t work? Or did you feel that it’s your fault, for not being a ‘good’ client?

he keeps cutting me off telling me that my judgement is wrong, he disagrees, he has a different definition, etc. He hasn't even heard 99.999% of all the things that have gone on, because he keeps trying to disprove each example as I bring it up.

Would you believe me if I say that all of the above sounds like my mother? And you know what my mother is.

Growing up I experienced a severe lack of validation, feedback, emotional interaction, etc. I think I need to get over that to grow out of co-dependency and maybe even some relationship addiction. I don't know how to get over that right now.

Maybe leaving this therapist right now will help? You don’t have to make any broken relationship work. You are allowed to just walk away and not look back. If you can do this right now with this therp, wouldn’t that be a huge step? “This isn’t working for me. Goodbye.” You don’t have to do anything else.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Longtire for not being offended by my post.  Where did you get the name Longtire from?

Concerning shopping and spending money, my mother who I believe has a serious PD, more specifically NPD, has an obsession with shopping and buying.  I really see it as her substitute for intimacy.  If she wasn’t shopping and buying, she was talking about her shopping and what she bought.  Before I had a family when I had a superficial relationship with her I would see her a couple times a month and this was really most of what she talked about.  Same when I talked with her on the phone.  If I would start to say anything about what happened in my life she would cut me off in midsentence and continue on, even if it was her who asked me what was going on in my life.  I got where I wouldn’t start a conversation about what was going on with me and if she asked I would say “nothing”.  Your wife might have a similar problem of her shopping and buying being a distraction for avoiding her fearful intimacy needs.

I’ve read through your thread and stated earlier in the thread that I believe your marriage was never actually a marriage and I do have some understanding of the depth of the problems that you have experienced with your wife.  I do believe though that you have sent mixed messages to your therapist, which is normal to a large extent.  In the past couple months you had decided to leave her, then you told him you changed your mind, now I’m not sure you are clear with him or yourself as far as what it is that you want.  Leaving her or working on the marriage is two opposite directions.  Each direction would require to be approached in a different manner.  I am not trying to “defend” your therapist here.  You stated that “The back and forth is what I wanted help with in therapy.”  And I happen to agree with you that this is what needs to be addressed at this time.  I think it might be quite possible that you need another therapist, not one that agrees with you all the time but seven years working with the same guy is a long time.  In the end though no one, not a therapist or anyone else can fix this for you, YOU will have to make a decision one way or the other and proceed or YOU will have to stay in a state of ambivalence going back and forth.

I personally have the impression that you feel it is necessary that your wife be viewed as “abusive” in order for you to “feel” justified in leaving her.  And I think that until you resolve this you will continue in your state of ambivalence.  I also believe it would be more productive for you to focus on the fact that you have important needs that are not being met in this relationship rather than focusing on your wives behavior.  Whatever state you are in ambivalence, going to leave her, or trying to work on the relationship I think this attitudinal change (which you already have made a lot of progress in this direction) is helpful.  Being fully “grown up” means taking full responsibility for one’s needs being met and one’s own behavior and the consequences of one’s own behavior.  And it is my impression that your fear of this is what is keeping you in a state of ambivalence.  I don’t think that you have come to the confidence in yourself yet to be able to do this, however I do believe that you are on the cusp of being able to make this leap.

I’m not saying that you are being inappropriately intimate with your daughter, I’m just saying that it is unhealthy for everyone when parents who live together have a more intimate relationship with their children than with each other, I think we can agree with this.  You are in a bad situation though and to a large extent this can’t be helped, you sure don’t want to abandon your daughter now.  I just think it’s something to be watchful of and also that it is an impetus for you to get out of the ambivalent state and to move one way or the other.  I don’t think I’m projecting here I think it is a legitimate matter to consider.  If you’re interested in exploring how this could be a projection on my part I’m open to that.

Concerning intimacy and sexual contact, I think you realize that sexual contact without some history of emotional intimacy is not very successful.  I believe it would be necessary for you and your wife to establish some emotional intimacy before any sexual contact was considered.

I would also like to talk about validation a little.  We will never be totally validated by everyone.  And really in the end we have to validate things for ourselves, until we do this we are left in an ambivalent state.  So I think as an adult we have to take in what we can from outside of ourselves and then provide our own validation.

Again things that I’ve said concerning you and your situation are only my thoughts and impressions and I very well could be wrong about any number of things.  If nothing else the length of my last post and this post will help contribute to the length of this thread.  Are you sure you don't want to change your name to "Longthread" ?  

LM