My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[longtire]

I decided to bring my postings back over to this "long, long story" thread.  http://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=1347  Maybe if I get the longest thread I'll change my name to "longthread" as suggested previously.

Thank you all again for the support, especially bunny for being there for me in an hour of need.  Why is growth so painful? I know it is, but I don't know why.  I feel annoyed and dropped that it is so hard to find someone local who understands what I've been going through.  I know that is a reflection of how it felt to me as a kid.  Its also a reflection of my still tenuous, but growing self-confidence.  I'm in an area where I have to make decisions and take action WITHOUT the comfort of thinking about it forever first.  Much more alive than I've ever been, but scary too.

Some of the inner dialogue work I did over the weekend:  Sam is a part of my inner family who showed up about the same time 8yo "little longtire" did.  Sam didn't talk much and seemed to be angry much of the time.  I just welcomed him in and figured he would speak up at the right time.  Apparently, it was the other morning. Sam is sort of my protective parent part, but he had to grow up too fast and was operating out of the same time in my history as "little longtire."  Sam has been trying everything he can to keep me in this relationship.  He saw growing up in my family that relationships were lonely and confusing.  When I got married, he saw that it was lonely and confusing.  After going through depression, he vowed never to let that happen to "us" again.  So he decided that we "had" to stay in this relationship until we figured out what we are doing wrong so we can have relationships that are NOT lonely and confusing.  He was afraid that if I didn't solve it here, I would never be able to solve it or I would get depressed again and die.

I explained to him that we DO already have relationships that are not lonely and confusing.  They feel close and not confusing, even when I don't understand everything about the other person.  It is a very different feeling.  I have it with my daughter, with people here, with my friends, and even a bit with my parents now.  I have this everywhere else but with my wife.  Sam admitted that he sees that now and entrusted me (adult me) with the responsibility for making decisions, since I'm generally doing a good job of it these days. He was also afraid that he wouldn't have a purpose anymore, but I reminded him that he's supposed to protect me by pointing out problems.  Since he won't be consumed by forcing me to stay anymore, he'll have a lot of time and energy to point out unhealthy things in my life.  I also don't have to figure out the confused feeling anymore, because it is my experience of irrationality.  No wonder I couldn't figure out the logic behind it.  "It" is the lack of logic.

Back to the here and now.  I called my old T and told him that I wasn't coming anymore.  I haven't heard a response, but assume he got my message.  I have a call in to a new T.  I want to interview her a little before setting up an appointment.  I decided to try a female counselor this time.  I'm not entirely sure why, partly just to try something new, partly because the last joint counselor was good in individual, just not in joint.

Lawyer appointment was bumped until tomorrow.  I can't wait to get some answers and start taking more concrete action to reclaim my life.  I just finished reading "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" last night.  The more aware I am of what is going on and the more validation I get that my wife is truly always looking to be one up, the more problems I have sleeping in the same bed with her.  Yes, I know, duh?!? But there is more to it than that.  

I am awake until exhaustion claims me at 2am or 3am these nights.  I've been trying to pin down the feelings, but I'm not sure how to describe it.  It is sort of like passive "fight or flight" if that makes sense. My breathing get shallow, my muscles tense up, especially in my legs.  Trying all kinds of muscle relaxing exercises don't seem to help much, the tension creeps back in.  My breathing gets shallow, I have to concentrate to take deep slow breaths.  It feels a lot like getting that surge of adrenelin WITHOUT the boost.  I was going to say that I wonder if this might be low level PTSD, but I don't believe that my situation has ever been bad enough to warrant that.  Plus, I don't want to be a hypochondriac.  Besides dismissing my own experience (a "no no") I just now took a quick read of a couple of PTSD sites and it sounds very familiar.  Yet, another topic to tackle.  I know what I'l be doing at 1am tonight.

After reading all this I sound really grim today.  The truth is, despite everything, last night was the best night for me that I remember since getting married!  I felt free and able to choose any course I want in life.  It felt like me.  Today I am feeling more of the pressures of doing all of the things I need to do to prepare.  That's a lot, but I am getting them done.  I even have a little time left over to enjoy life these days.

[longtire]

I started wavering a bit after I got home tonight and my wife came in.  She says "Hi" and that's about it anymore.  Anyway, it isn't anything that she says or does, its about my reactions.  I just realized that one of the triggers was that my wife got a letter from her parents and a letter from her aunt today and her birthday is not coming up real soon.  Uncertainty and projection on my part, ick!

<<< I started thinking, what if I do have PTSD and I take care of that, wouldn't I be able to tolerate the situation better then?

>>> Undoubtedly part of my wavering right now is due to my being exhausted and stressed from the situation and needing a real break for a while.  What outcome and for how long would I consider tolerating the relationship at this point?  Not much at all.

<<< Don't I create stress in my own mind?  So, I could just stop being stressed and I would feel fine in the current situation.

>>> Yes, to some extent.  If my needs are being chronically unmet in this situation (they are) or if I do indeed have some PTSD, then no, I can't just will myself better right now.  I need space and time.

<<< Can't I just have a separation for a while to take care of myself until I am better off.  I don't need to ask for a divorce right away.  She is still going to therapy as far as I know.  There is a glimmer of hope.

>>> I have no reason to believe that she is moving in that direction right now since she doesn't talk about it.  Not talking about it is a sign.  My unfounded hope is the main thing that kept me in this unhealthy situation for so long.  Is the relationship even tolerable to me at the present time?  No?  Then I need to move to a healthy place.  Haven't I waited long enough for my wife to get better with her issues?  Yes!

Will a separation or a divorce be more likely to get me into a healthy place in my life?  A separation maintains that unhalthy connection, a divorce severs it (legally anyway ).  If divorce turns out to be a mistake, it is not unfixable.  You aren't still holding out for a miracle to fix the relationship and make everything perfect are you?  Wishful thinking will not solve this problem and makes the decisions harder, not easier.

<<< There is still a possibility the my wife could grow out of this and we could have a great relationship for the rest of our lives.

>>> Yes there is.  I can think of many, many things which are possible, but I am not basing my life on them.  It is possible that I could get hit by a bus any day now, maybe I should never go out again.  What is likely based on my past experience?  It will be very difficult for her to change and will likely take a very long time before she is in a healthy place.  I am too aware to stay in an emotional vacuum like this anymore.

This is one of those self-journal posts.  I can't believe people read this.  Does anyone get anything useful from these kinds of posts?  I'll keep posting regardless since they help me sort out my thoughts and feelings.

PS  I have been pushing a bit to get my daughter to go to church.  She has been saying that she's excited to go, but there has been something else come up every week for the past 6 weeks.  Tonight, she came to talk to me and told me how she prays for 1/2 hour every night and reads the bible and wants to find her own relationship with God.  She said that even though people at church are nice, she feels pressured while she's there and pays more attention to that than the message.  She would rather only go to church occasionally when it feels right.  I told her I understand how she feels and that the most important thing was having a realtionship with God.  Like father, like daughter?  I told her that I was very glad she came to tell me and that I had been pushing a bit because I noticed that what she was saying and what she was doing didn't quite agree.  I had to slip in that parental lesson.  She makes me very proud.

[bunny]

longtire,

Yes I read these posts and find them interesting. My therapist once told me that my family gives me the choice of (a) massive guilt if I do what I want; or (b) bitter resentment if I submit to them. I tend to choose the bitter resentment most of the time.

bunny

[longtire]

I had yet another insight this morning.  Good night's sleep last night, by the way!  Yay! I have been reluctant to letting go of connection with my wife and that has made preparing and leaving more difficult.  The connection that I had is being useful to her and being angrily "tolerated" in return for it.  Actually, she used me as her dumping ground.  I'm sure that is important to her, but not in a way I want to be a part of. I want to be seen as valuable and precious and then loved or at least liked, in return for it.  I will not accept less than this any longer.  Boy, did I settle for something toxic for a long time.  Connection at any price is NOT worth it.

bunny, luckily:?, somehow I usually chose option (a) in my life.  Marriage has been the big huge exception, though.  There I chose (b) for a long time.  I look forward to a time when I have no (well, very little) interaction with anyone who tries to force either option on me.  I will be myself and only tolerate being around other people who are OK with that.  I hate it when people give me 2 choices and tell me I have to pick one. The world is not "either or," it is everything in between.

[longtire]

Back to sleep not coming until the wee hours again last night.

On a good note, I talked with my lawyer yesterday and had him file the petition to start the 60 day waiting period.  I found out what I need to do to protect myself financially during this without acting like a selfish jerk. I haven't filed the temporary orders yet.  I still have some documents to copy, find a place to live, get some furniture, etc.  I am going to give working out a divorce agreement between us a try first.  I can always go back and file if and when that doesn't work out.  I'm really looking forward to sleeping in my own bed, in my own place, that she has never been to!

I also talked with the new counselor and she seems like what I'm looking for, more empathetic and validating.  She has background in physical, sexual and verbal abuse, as well.  Unfortunately, the first opening she had is almost two weeks away.

[Anonymous]

Wow!  Good for you Longtire!

You're moving ahead steadily now!!

So did you tell her that you're leaving yet?  (sorry if I've missed that somewhere. )

I'm glad you've found a therapist to support you through this.  It isn't easy and it will be good to have her to lean on.

GFN

[longtire]

Wow!  Good for you Longtire!

You're moving ahead steadily now!!

So did you tell her that you're leaving yet?  (sorry if I've missed that somewhere. )

I'm glad you've found a therapist to support you through this.  It isn't easy and it will be good to have her to lean on.

I don't feel steady, but I am still moving out.  No, I don't plan to tell her until I am ready to move out.  I really look forward to that counselor visit and am hopeful that she will be able to help support me through this.  I really appreciate your support and enthusiasm.

This afternoon, I feel inadequate (progress? in the past I would have said worthless).  I've had a lot of back and forth today.  I believe that if I were further along in my psychological and spiritual growth I would be able to really trust in God and keep living in this relationship with my wife until she works her stuff out.  I realized today that I'm feeling very sad about leaving because that is not what I really want.  Even at this point, my biggest desire would be to have everything work out great between us.  However, I am not at that point in my growth, I do need to get out of this unhealthy situation so I can continue to heal and grow, and the reality is that my wife is not able to even begin a mutual relationship today.

Part of this is my perfectionistic tendencies.  If I just worked out ALL my issues by now, then I could help her and save the relationship as well as follow God perfectly, all at the same time!  It is so ridiculous it is mind-boggling when I write it out, but this is what actually goes through my mind, I kid you not.  In truth, I AM trusting God to get me through this and not punish me just because I am not up to the challenge today.  THAT is scary because I have to give up my childish beliefs that *I* am (or ever was) in control.  I think I am really fighting against giving up this notion of being in control.

Just realized another big piece of this as I was writing.  I believe that if I am not in control that shows I am not "good enough" and it is OK for others to treat me any way they want.  I don't deserve to be treated well. Yuck!!!  I equate being in control with competence with deserving love.  Who's idea is that?  I don't want it!  I think that one comes from my mother.  I have to run, but I'll be thinking of ways to let that one go....

[Anonymous]

It's kind of neat to realize all the "wacky" negative tapes aren't the law. You can decide that they don't work anymore and retire them. Some of my old ideas that went into retirement were, "Mom wouldn't want you to buy/do/think that." (mom isn't in charge anymore); "Mom would kill you if you did XYZ" (but mom isn't here); "Everyone hates you." (seems a bit irrational); "You are the worst person in the world." (seems a bit of an exaggeration). I could go on but you get the idea.

bunny

[longtire]

Ugh, another rough night.  Up until 4am the past couple of nights.

I really started questioning myself last night.  Maybe the things I remember really didn't happen after all?  She seems more reasonable these days.  Maybe it really always was my fault?  After a while I was able to remind myself of all the things that she has done and said and denied ever after.  I wonder why it is taking so long (hours) to remember and validate my experience these days?  She seems more reasonable these days because she doesn't talk at all and therefore doesn't give herself a chance to do all the denial and blaming and distraction.  Not talking itself is verbal abuse from her, but it beats trying to talk with her AND verbal abuse!

I feel like I have to have an unquestionable diagnosis in order to prove to her that its acceptable fro me to leave.  My brain tells me it doesn't matter what I say, it will only be about her internal reaction to it anyway.  My internal 3yo is telling me that if she's is mad, we will be rejected and abandoned and get hurt emotionally, maybe physically.  If she understands, she won't be mad and we won't have to get hurt again.

That is my experience of growing up with my mother.  Poor little guy.  No wonder I've been feeling so much intense sadness and fear lately.  To a 3yo now is forever.  He has no sense of time and this feels like EXACTLY what happened before to him.  To him, it IS happening again right now.  Also, if "mommy" is mad, I'm bad.  If I'm bad, nobody can love me, not even God.  If nobody loves me, I will be alone and feel bad forever.

As crappy as I've been feeling, I am GRATEFUL to feel it.  I am not depressed.  I am not numb.  I am not N.  I can feel the pain of my experience and sympathize with it, let it be there, accept it, and love it.  This is exactly what my wife and other people trapped in N CANNOT do.  That is why it is so difficult for them to get out of the trap.  To feel your feelings, accept them and grow is a gift and I pity anyone who does not have that.

I can feel and accept these 3yo feelings while taking care of myself as an adult.  If I make a mistake, no matter how terrible, I can acknowlege it, take responsibility, apologize, and work to heal it.  It doesn't make me "unloveable," just human.  It doesn't justify anyone else's actions toward me.  How blessed am I!

[Anonymous]

Hello Longtire:

I wonder why it is taking so long (hours) to remember and validate my experience these days?

I think you answered your own question in the next sentence.

She seems more reasonable these days because she doesn't talk at all and therefore doesn't give herself a chance to do all the denial and blaming and distraction.

So you have to dig back in the pile to find the stuff to validate your decision, which is based on what she usually doesn, not what she's doing now (which is nothing).

That's why the lists of stuff that was/is missing from your marriage, stuff that was/is there that caused harm, reasons you don't want to be married to her anymore, etc can come in very handy at a time like this.  Simply reading those lists over can refresh your memory of exactly why....you are sticking to your decision and how it came to be.

Maybe she sences that you are planning to go.  Do you have a plan for how to respond if she starts begging and pleading and trying to infuse you with guilt??

Hope you have pleasant dreams tonight!

GFN

[longtire]

That's why the lists of stuff that was/is missing from your marriage, stuff that was/is there that caused harm, reasons you don't want to be married to her anymore, etc can come in very handy at a time like this.  Simply reading those lists over can refresh your memory of exactly why....you are sticking to your decision and how it came to be.

Yes, every time I go back over what I rememebr in detail, I come to the same conclusions.

Maybe she sences that you are planning to go.  Do you have a plan for how to respond if she starts begging and pleading and trying to infuse you with guilt??

After I recover from the shock   I plan to leave. It has never been a problem for her to try to give me guilt or begging/blaming/whatever.  I don't take it.  The problem was when she got ME to question MYSELF and do the dirty work for her.  I still get lost temporarily sometimes, but always find my way back to reality.  I've been using the "I'm not able to talk right now" defense when that is the case.

[Anonymous]

Hi again Longtire:

So then.....if she starts somehow getting you to question yourself....for leaving.....your plan is to use the  "I'm not able to talk right now" response?

Good idea.  

How about your daughter?  Does she know?  Who will you tell first?

Sorry, don't mean to sound like 20 questions here.  Just thinking about some of the tough stuff.....might help to sort it out ahead of time and be even better prepared for times ahead??

GFN

[Stormchild Guesting]

Longtire - I'm gonna download a lot of info to you here, hang in there, you need the details in order for the general thing I want to say to make any sense. Ready?

There's something called PDSD, as well as PTSD. Right now PDSD isn't officially recognized in the states, as far as I can tell, but it certainly is in Europe, and more open-minded counselors in the US also realize it's around.

Where PTSD is post-traumatic stress disorder, PDSD is prolonged duress stress disorder.

PTSD, in the book definition, is the result of going through some intense, extreme trauma that has a definite start and end - like being trapped in a car that's gone over an embankment, and it takes them 3 days to find you (some poor little old lady actually went through that - she lived and recovered, thank God).

PDSD, on the other hand, is the result of being ground down and abused and frightened and jerked around, day after day after day after day. Prolonged. Duress. Stress. Disorder. Like living for 20 years with a partner who hates you and hits you and taunts you and explodes over nothing and then brings you flowers.... or working for a narcissistic, bullying jerk...

The difference is significant because with PTSD, the thing that did it to you is over and gone. Has to be. And you may fear a recurrence, but that fear can be dealt with. With PDSD, a lot of the time the person is still in the situation that's created it. And still fighting to believe his or her own perceptions of the situation because of all the 'gaslighting' going on by the perp.

So until there are severe symptoms... major depression, etc. ... PDSD is often not recognized. And in this country, there's still no formal diagnostic category for it, as I recall (I don't have the DSM at home, and don't have online access from here either, but I just did an online search and all the sites that cover PDSD are still UK, Australian, etc. Here's a URL for the one US site I found that discusses it, and they say it's not yet in the DSM, which is what I thought. I believe the term 'adjustment disorder' is used to cover it these days... so people can be treated...

http://www.a2zgorge.info/prevention/PTSD.htm

Where I'm going with all this blather is that your situation is a jiffy, dandy setup for PDSD. As are the situations that most of us on this board have been in or are currently trying to escape... so take a look at any information you can find on PDSD - the approach to treating it is somewhat different, but it's definitely treatable. [And it doesn't always mean a life sentence of antidepressants, either... although it may mean one does take them for awhile.]

OK, enough jargon and whatnot. I'm not offering a diagnosis for anyone, but I wanted to get this info out here because the difference between the two things is important and it's easier to heal when you have clear pictures of what you're healing from...  

And because moving out takes on a whole nother aspect if you're looking at escaping from a PDSD factory.

[longtire]

Stormchild, thank you for the post and the heads up.  It is very timely, as I have been reading about PTSD throughout the day.  I believe that Complex or Chronic PTSD is the same as PDSD, though it sounds like PDSD is more directly focused on the cause of the problems.

I've read some about PTSD today and will continue to read.  It is one of those homecoming feelings from reading something and realizing, "that's me they're talking about!"  I do believe that I have something in the area of Complex PTSD or PDSD.  (People never fit neatly into these little boxes, but the concepts are helpful anyway.)  This started for me as a kid growing up in an emotionally neglectful, emotionally void family.  (Funny, but that word "family" never seem right for my house growing up.)  I had put myself away in a little box before I turned 10.  (avoidant)  Later, I went to therapy for depression (keeping it in), and more recently have come out of many years of being profoundly numb.  Now the last two reactions came after being married.  What is the situation of being married like now?  It is emotionally void, with unacknowleged anger, just like it was growing up for me.  No wonder I have been so stressed and distressed lately, even though "nothing is going on."  It reminds me of the "nothing that went on" in my life as a kid.

I also believe from the reading so far that my wife suffers from PTSD/BPD.  These seem to be strongly connected in many sufferers.  One of the sources I read claimed that children who suffered growing up would turn to avoidant behavior if they were older, but to dissociation if they were younger.  I believe that this matches both my and my wife's experience very well.  I was older and became avoidant.  She was likely younger and certainly has turned to dissociation.  Along the way I found out that there is a strong correlation between BPD and memory disturbance like amnesia.  I sort of knew it was related based on my wife's behavior, but this really clarified the picture for me.

So, it makes a lot more sense to me now why I feel the need to get out of this environment.  It is continually re-wounding me every single day.  I was feeling badly about leaving after I got home tonight.  I reminded myself that my leaving is a caring, not hateful act that will not harm anyone, though some feelings might be hurt.  Nothing that I can't address with caring talk.  (I'm thinking primarily of my daughter here, but also possibly with my wife and her parents.)  I need to do this to give myself time and space to get my head on straight so I can settle down and make better decisions.  I do feel badly because I tell myself I "should" be able to own my reactions and handle them without leaving or impacting my wife and daughter as much.  Reality is that I CANNOT do that right now for the reasons I wrote above.

For now, I am calling this a separation.  I'm not going to pursue the question of divorce until it is either my choice with a clear head or I need to do it to protect myself from my wife's reactions or behavior.  It is a relief to give up that question and concentrate only on the first step of separation.  That is easier to hold onto in my current state.

All this explains a lot of things I never understood before:  why I have had chronic problems falling asleep even after depression lifted, why it is so hard to make up my mind and waffling back and forth, why I kept myself numb for so long, why I didn't do something sooner to leave, why I feel more comfortable being away from home even though I want intimacy more than anything else.

[Stormchild Guesting]

Sounds good longtire.

Wise to consider it separation just now. One never knows - turnarounds can happen.

One piece of serious advice here... check into renting a place where you can have your cat. PM me if you want more details as to why I'm advising this - it's partly for your emotional welfare but also for your animal's welfare. Ns sometimes retaliate by doing things like giving pets to the pound. Even if your daughter loves the cat; she's not going to be able to protect it. [If you've already looked into this and I missed it upthread, I apologize.]

Besides the cat, if there's anything that you feel really 'at home' with, try to take it with you. A favorite armchair, a particular bookcase. This stuff does help you feel as though home is where you are. Especially if you can fall asleep in an unfamiliar place to the sound of a familiar purr.

Others who have been through this can probably give you more pointers... I just wanted to post about the kitty, to make sure someone said it sooner rather than later.

Good luck!!!!!!