My Long, Long Story.........I no longer Feel Alone With This

[P]

I agree with Storm. I also wonder (coz I can be suspicious too) what she has planned for the day? Maybe she's doing a 'good' thing to counter-balance a 'bad' thing?  Whatever, it's about her state of mind, not yours Longtire. Stay as cool as you are  Portia

[Anonymous]

Portia, My mother doesn't secretly eat trayfe.

Longtire, I forgot to congratulate you on putting down a deposit. Good work! I agree with Stormchild that your wife is just trying to confuse you with kindness, because she senses you have changed rather dramatically, and she no longer has the advantage.

bunny

[P]

  Did I say something offensive bunny??? I just thought from your repy I might have. It's possible. But I don't know. Sheeeeesh sorry sorry if I did. Not intended. portia

[Anonymous]

P- It did take me aback a bit.  It is a bit odd to say that about my mother, after I just said that she would be horrified by my eating unkosher food. In fact I think she would throw up if she ever found out that she ate pork. That's all.

bunny

[daylily]

It seems to me that if different denominations vary widely in their treatment of an issue such as divorce, there can be no consensus, no "one truth" that we all have to follow.  Maybe that sounds rather self-serving, but I think it's very telling.  If (mostly) men and (very occasionally) women who make it their business to think about these things can't come up with an answer, how is the individual supposed to do anything but follow his or her conscience?

The best definition of chastity I ever heard is "having the body in the soul's keeping."  I think the same goes for divorce.  If you take the commitment seriously, you will not leave it lightly or as a matter of mere self-indulgence (say, to satisfy lust).  You will not use the other person as an object of convenience.  To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you.  I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.

I would say the challenge for you, Longtire, is not in deciding to leave your wife but in retaining consciousness of her as a person, even when she hurts you.  The easy way is to hate her, objectify her, and not care what this does to her.  The hard way is to be as kind as you can without sacrificing yourself to her.

Anyway, just one person's opinion.

[Anonymous]

Wow Daylily!

To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you. I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.

Sure sounds like an accurate sum-up to me!  Glad you're posting!

Longtire:

Hope you will have the most comfortable, sweet, refreshing sleep tonight!

And for the record.....she can wish you the most wonderful/blessed day all she likes, in a note.  It's her actions and actual words that speak for themselves.  So far, they don't seem to endorse the same wish, do they?

Good shaking of head Long!!    Keep it shook up and wide awake(day time hours as needed).  No falling for instantaneously impossible and highly unlikely dreams.

GFN

[Stormchild]

Oh yeah... I forgot to add...

start the countdown, she's going to ask you for money again.

[longtire]

have you ever read C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity"? He was a remarkable thinker, and on the subject of divorce he pointed out that while some denominations take a strong stand against it and others are less strict, all regard it as essentially a form of surgery, more than the simple dissolution of an inconvenient arrangement. I am paraphrasing, but that's the gist.

I think that I would enjoy reading more of C.S. Lewis' works.  Honestly, I've got quite a list ahead of this, but it is on the list now.  The only work of his I'm familiar is "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe."  Myabe I can find a compendium or box set of his works at the used bookstore?  Hmmm......

You have hardly been frivolous in what you are doing. You've tried and thought and striven and thought and suffered and thought for years... nobody could be less frivolous or impulsive about this decision than you have been. You have shown the same degree of seriousness in this regard as Lewis describes... this for you has been a last resort. Nobody could rationally ask more of you.

hang in there, longtire. God knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows when we've tried our very best. He knows you have.

Thanks for this reminder.  This has been very difficult and has required me to grow hugely just to even get to this point.  This is NOT the easy way out for me.  The easy way is depression or numbness, but fortunately some part of me just won't accept that.

I realized something else as I was thinking about your post.  When someone honestly apologizes to me and tells me they are sorry, I am able to forgive easily and move on.  I don't dwell on it because it actually ended up bringing us closer together and demonstrating that this person cares enough about me to care how I feel and want things to be right between us.  I literally forget about it.  It is gone.  It just really hit me that is apology and forgiveness working together the way they are supposed to.

I don't have this with my wife.  I have pursued my own forgiveness of her behavior on my own to get past these things.  She has offered tainted apologies in the past either literally through clenched teeth, "I'm sorry, not get over it!" or witholding, "I'm sorry if I did anything that hurt you, " or "I don't agree that I did these things, but I apologize if you felt hurt."  I have been thinking that there is something wrong with me because I have not been able to move beyond these things.  However, with everyone else it is gone and forgotten when they genuinely apologize.  (Yes, part of it could be because she's closer, being my wife and all, but I don't think that is it.) I think I haven't been able to move because this has never been resolved!

Of course, I don't need her cooperation to move beyond this.  I have been holding onto it because I have been hoping for a real reconciliation.  I realize that she is no consciously aware of most of her hurtful words and actions.  It is unlikely that will ever change and I'm not likely to see a genuine apology or reconciliation over these things.  This seems like a strange thing to grieve over to me, but I am grieving the loss of reconciliation.

What really gets to me is feeling unconditionally loved. THAT breaks right on through for me where threats of pain and suffering do not. I don't believe it is a coincidence that has been my personal experience of God so far. Whenever the pain and suffering was being brought up, it was always by another human, well-meaning I'm sure.

Question: are you saying you feel God’s unconditional love? Or are you saying that you see that suffering is a result of contact with other humans? Or both? (I’m wondering if you feel the love as well as the suffering I guess.)

I wrote this confusingly.  Yes, I feel the unconditional love from my personal, internal, relationship to God.  Hearing that I will suffer if I am not perfectly following what is written in the bible (rather than from relationship with God) comes from people.  Sometimes contact with these people provides suffering as well.  

As for what my wife is doing....   She is talking all nice today like nothing ever happened or it all got resolved somehow in her mind the other day.  She seems to be pursuing what she wants, which is to have a light, fun relationship where we tell each other about our day.  That's fine with me.  She is entitled to go for what she wants.  Unfortunately, her avoiding the issues in our relationship does not move me to a place of being OK with the current situation.  I am still moving in the direction I need to move for my own life.  That seems to be the opposite direction right now.

Longtire, I forgot to congratulate you on putting down a deposit. Good work! I agree with Stormchild that your wife is just trying to confuse you with kindness, because she senses you have changed rather dramatically, and she no longer has the advantage.

The only advantage she had is that I thought I had to appease her to get her to care about me.  You're right, that is gone.  If she doesn't like me for who I really am, not her projections, then she doesn't like me.

bunny, I used to work near a kosher deli and ate there once a week.  I miss it.

Oh yeah... I forgot to add...

start the countdown, she's going to ask you for money again.

You're such a kidder! Should we have a pool to determine how long until she asks and for how much?

Time to end this post I think.  My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm.

[longtire]

Hi daylily, I wanted to reply to your post separately since it is so dense with meaning.  Reminds me of LM's posts.

It seems to me that if different denominations vary widely in their treatment of an issue such as divorce, there can be no consensus, no "one truth" that we all have to follow.  Maybe that sounds rather self-serving, but I think it's very telling.  If (mostly) men and (very occasionally) women who make it their business to think about these things can't come up with an answer, how is the individual supposed to do anything but follow his or her conscience?

This is the most concise explanation of this I've seen yet.  When it comes down to only "bad" choices, I don't believe that there is always only ever one single "right" answer.  If staying is always the right answer, then why don't things turn out "right" in that "bad" situation.  Holding on through a rough patch to get the rewards on the other side is one thing.  That involves struggle and change on both people's part.  Holding on in a "bad" situation without change is stagnation, not faith.

The best definition of chastity I ever heard is "having the body in the soul's keeping."  I think the same goes for divorce.  If you take the commitment seriously, you will not leave it lightly or as a matter of mere self-indulgence (say, to satisfy lust).  You will not use the other person as an object of convenience.  To me, that is the yardstick of "Christian" conduct--to act with a consciousness of others, whether or not they maintain a consciousness of you.  I do not believe God in any sense would demand that we roast ourselves slowly over the fire of doctrinal purity.

I am not claiming this is my primary motivation, by any means:  I don't think it is fair to my wife to be "stuck with me" when I don't appreciate her behavior, keep trying to get her to ackowledge it and insist on being treated the way I want to be treated.  I'm not happy being with her, I don't love her, I don't appreciate her due to the hurt and frustration I feel.  Maybe someone else can.  Maybe they can help her grow.  I can't.

My daughter spends very little time at home.  OK she's 16 with a car, so that is not surprising.  Still, I believe that a lot of it is not wanting to be around such a hostile and tense atmosphere.  It isn't good for her either.

As for satisfying lust, as good as that sounds, I need serious time to recover, re-learn who I am and just get used to living and being without a romantic relationship.  There is no woman on the side here and won't be for some time even after a divorce.  After that, I will not get into a romantic relationship without being friends first and taking my time.  I have at least learned that lesson from this experience!

I would say the challenge for you, Longtire, is not in deciding to leave your wife but in retaining consciousness of her as a person, even when she hurts you.  The easy way is to hate her, objectify her, and not care what this does to her.  The hard way is to be as kind as you can without sacrificing yourself to her.

Yes, I can see that she has reasons (fear) for doing what she does.  Thank  God the forgiveness work I have already done has drained most of my anger and resentment.  I no longer see her as evil or bad.  I see her as a fellow human being who was damaged even worse than I was growing up, through no fault of her own and not by her choice.  However, as an adult, I still hold her responsible for her words and behavior.  Just like me, there is no ability and nothing that keeps her from being the next Hitler or the next Mother Teresa.  It is only our choices that determine where we fall in this range, not our abilities.  We are capable of both ends of the spectrum.  After all, I have not been a saint in this relationship.  I have had anger toward her for many, many years.  Now I am truly taking care of myself, so I generally don't need to feel anger anymore.  These days I feel more sadness and grief.

Just to point out, I am separating at this time.  Though I don't see a reconciliation being likely, I have not asked for a divorce.

[Portia]

Sorry longtire, I’m barging in on your thread again.

Bunny, I reacted to what I imagined I heard you saying, which I interpreted as you knowing something for sure about someone else (your mom). I wanted to question whether you could view it differently. I was totally off-thread and off topic and questioning you when it’s not necessarily appropriate or relevant. (Okay in my head I was continuing on the ‘living with uncertainty’ topic, but that’s irrelevant. That was about Longtire, not you.)

I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine). I think you like to have rules/boundaries (whatever) and we’re different in some ways. I think I should respect and accept those differences. (No jokes, this is too serious to me. Old stuff in play.) I’ll try my best not to question you again like that (other people yes, maybe, but not you). That’s my take on what I did and how I’ll try to change.

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:

I no longer see her as evil or bad. I see her as a fellow human being who was damaged even worse than I was growing up, through no fault of her own and not by her choice. However, as an adult, I still hold her responsible for her words and behavior. Just like me, there is no ability and nothing that keeps her from being the next Hitler or the next Mother Teresa. It is only our choices that determine where we fall in this range, not our abilities. We are capable of both ends of the spectrum.

Longtire:  This is such a reasonable, fair, adult attitude!   A speaker re. divorce I heard once said:  "You will finally be at peace when you can honestly say: 'I am sorry for everything I've ever done that hurt you and I forgive you for everything you've ever done that hurt me'.  Until then, working toward this is a good goal."

You're already most of the way there, Long.  The saddness will pass when your grieving is over.  Separation/Divorce/Reconcilliation will be decided later.  The good thing is that you are taking care of you now.  That's not Mother Teresa or Hitlerish, it's just necessary to get you on the road to getting the most out of life and giving your best back.

Hey Portia: (budding into your budding in, sorry, sorry...not resisting tempation again--slap self ).

I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine).

How dare you do that!!  The rest of us are perfect--what happened to you??  (I love saying that when people make mistakes.....that...or...."Oh!!!  You're the onnnnnnnnnnly one that's evvvvver done that!!!  The rest of us are perfect!!"

GFN

[Anonymous]

Longtire,

You wrote,

Time to end this post I think. My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm.

Does that mean I can't post anymore?

mudpup

[bunny]

Thanks Portia.

bunny

[Lara]

Dear Longtire,
Your post about apology and forgiveness struck a chord with me, and I wanted to thank you for what you wrote.

Firstly, when you said that your wife's apologies could not lead to a reconciliation, because of the form they usually took, I was reminded of an article I read which said that an N's apologies, if listened to carefully, are not usually a real apology, expressing regret for something said or done, but in fact are an attempt to justify whatever it was. My ex's 'apologies' were usually like this, OR took the form of 'that wasn't my intention,' or 'I was only teasing.'

Secondly,what you wrote is true...in the absence of a genuine apology, or even of an awareness on the part of the N that they have actually done something 'wrong,' we tend to fill in the gaps for them. We assume that they are 'sorry,' because we would be, in the same situation; and then we assume that they have made the step in their minds between being sorry and doing something to rectify the situation. Looking back, I think I did this a lot with my ex;once he said the magic word 'Sorry,' I rushed to rehabilitate my ideal image of him, by completing all the necessary mental steps myself. He himself had to do little or nothing;I did the work for him every time.

Thanks Longtire,
Sincerely,
Lara.

[longtire]

Well, I'm feeling better today.  Still tired, but stronger after a week of almost normal sleep.  My energy level is much higher, I have more motivation, and most important of I all, I can think as straight as I ever did!   I was really feeling panicked that something was really out of whack.  I guess sleep deprivation is funny that way.  Whew!   Still waiting for the final word on the house, but the leasing agent told me that everything looks great!

I do that sometimes, go way off the field. I don’t always follow rules of etiquette, on the board or elsewhere (I’m a proverbial pain, or an idiot, or evil, to others, I imagine).

Portia, I think it is normal for people to follow the points of a conversation that interest them most.  Especially female people.    I think it is actually posting in this format here that is "unnatural."  Besides, I don't remember anyone saying that you were breaking any rules.  What rules are those anyway?  I'm not aware of any rules like that here.

Longtire: This is such a reasonable, fair, adult attitude! A speaker re. divorce I heard once said: "You will finally be at peace when you can honestly say: 'I am sorry for everything I've ever done that hurt you and I forgive you for everything you've ever done that hurt me'. Until then, working toward this is a good goal."

GFN, I am not there yet, but still working toward that.  I am trying to determine my faults in this relationship to confess them, change them and apologize specifically.  After all, I don't want to repeat them in the future.  I am less concerned about finishing forgiveness toward my wife right now.  I have done enough for this point, and can pick that back up when I've done more of my own work.  That whole baby steps, walking with leg shackles thing.

Time to end this post I think. My last statement smacked a bit of sarcasm.

Does that mean I can't post anymore?

Mudpuppy, you can post and be as sarcastic all you want!  I am more concered about my own sarcasm as I have used it for a long time as a defense against being hurt so much by my wife.  I am trying to be more aware of it when it occurs and to wonder what is underneath it.  Hurt, usually.  I am also practicing saying what I really want to say in place of the sarcasm.  I still appreciate sarcasm though, both my own and others'.

Firstly, when you said that your wife's apologies could not lead to a reconciliation, because of the form they usually took, I was reminded of an article I read which said that an N's apologies, if listened to carefully, are not usually a real apology, expressing regret for something said or done, but in fact are an attempt to justify whatever it was. My ex's 'apologies' were usually like this, OR took the form of 'that wasn't my intention,' or 'I was only teasing.'

Lara, another of her "famous" quotes is that "I had good intentions, so I couldn't have done anything wrong!"  As if this were the most logical thing in the world and I was just too dense to understand.  Hmmm, maybe that quote is a candidate for the most N sayings thread.

Good night, interesting dreams, Peace and Love.