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Heist on Something....

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Hopalong:
Thanks, Amber! I know it seems a silly thing but it's a test of my degree of tact and his of defensiveness. There's no way around it.

Haven't seen him since I got the Huge Cold (still recovering) and though we meet for lunch tomorrow, it'll likely be a week before we...errr... snuggle again.

I do like your phrasing--"Squeezing the stuffing/pee...."

For me it's not just uncomfortable but a tiny bit anxiety inducing. Could this be a sign of dominance? Hmmm. Mutter mutter. I'll find out.

He is a self-confessed perfectionist, which is probably a thing that may look controlling (don't see it so far but I'm hypervigilant for signs) but is actually anxiety based. Or it could be how an engineer operates/sees things. Doesn't matter to me if it's a small issue (like my Dad's near-ocd passion for order, which somehow was never hurtful to anyone else). But if it's a large psychological issue with him in relationships that'd be a concern and it's critical I find out.

All this is why I want to take lots and lots and lots of time, and do dates that open us to different experiences, and see how we each respond in different situations.

Small things do loom big in potential significance so I am working to contain my own anxiety. Two divorces and loss of family don't lend one to feel brave about getting close again! But I would like to if it can be. I carry fear about it because looking back, in my first marriage choice I ignored huge background differences between us, and in my second I ignored psychological red flags. BANNERS.

hugs and thanks for listening to the minutia of my re-entry into this possibility.

Hops

sKePTiKal:
Minutia is where all the good stuff is, Hops. Heh-heh...

but since you DID notice your reaction, you kinda do need to figure out if it was just you being triggered and questioning... based on past history - or if it really was something you were "reading" from him. Usually, mind-reading isn't a good thing to indulge in (more on that in my thread) but one could look at the range of possibilities, as long as one does follow through: express the concern and the feeling, make the request, and assess the response. Not a good idea to decide on which possibility it was... until you have the direct information.

The possibilities range from the totally innocent (wanting to reassure, convey a sense of security, and pure over-exuberance - and since he's a widower, perhaps conveying this to HIMSELF that you came back) to all the subconscious flags for bad things that we're all experienced amateurs in.

One way to look at the conversation you'll eventually have, is to see how self-aware he is. Being the engineer type in general, doesn't necessarily indicate that he's not aware of his motivations and/or insensitive to other people's responses to him.

All part of the "getting to know you" dance.

lighter:
Hops:

I say lay your feelings and needs out there and see what happens.  Don't even focus on the what ifs of his reaction over the the hug discussion. 

This should be a small thing, and a respectful man who cares should be able to handle it, IME.  (And without drama, for Heaven's sake.)

On the other hand, a controlling, rigid person lacking the capacity to feel empathy or withstand (any) criticism might not handle this small thing very well, IME.

Sometimes I think walking on eggshells is muscle memory.  You shouldn't have to worry about how someone will respond.  You should be able to make a statement and get an adult response that's appropriate. 

If his response isn't in line, then you have important information about who this man is.  Esp since he's pointing his toes in the honeymoon phase of the relationship.  THIS is him on his best behavior, likely. 

I like the idea of using humor, but..... I'm unable to muster much when thinking about this situation.  Likely bc I don't want my lovely friend to waste time on a king baby.

Oh dear.  I realize I'm impatient, and that's my problem, not yours, Hops.  Keep having fun, but remember to believe him when he shows you who he is.

Remember not to make any excuses for bad behavior.

Expect the best from him, but don't close your eyes if he offers something else.

He'd be very lucky to have a family member like you to share his life with, IMO.  51% rule, and all of that.

::Nod::.
Lighter

Hopalong:
Thank you so much for the backup! I haven't done this thing in a loooooong time, and successfully very seldom, so the observations and advice really help.

So, lunch was interesting. Felt very happy to see him and he seemed the same. We sat in a booth and talked for two hours. Couple things arose that made me glad I'd seen my T his morning. My main job is to speak up, state needs and wishes, and observe how he responds. I had told my T a while back that I wasn't quite clear on whether B. is dating other people also. Tried asking him once and his answer was confusing. I couldn't tell if he was saying No or changing the subject. So my T asked today, Did you find out if he's still dating? (Not to judge B either way, but that it was something I'd wanted to know. So I gave myself the homework to find out.)

His answer was Yes, I'm still dating but not much. I was surprised but REALLY glad my T had reminded me. Not too upset but it was a warning not to get my fantasy engine going too fast or too far down the line. I am wondering--is he accustomed to being such a decisive businessman that he's "shopping" and the first candidate that fits enough of the qualities he desires, he'd propose asap? I almost think that might be true.

So I said, if you are dating that's healthy, you probably should. And I probably should be too. And mentioned that I'd signed up for a dating website but hadn't checked it in several weeks since I started seeing him. And we left it at that. Hmmm.

So we have a long convo and he mentions again that he's looking for "a wife or a permanent relationship" and that life is getting shorter, and he'd like to find someone as soon as possible. I believe him! I told him I agree about not wasting the "golden years" and that I have the same sense of time passing, but that I also think many conversations and questions and answers are not time wasted. I don't think we were disagreeing, just looking at it from different angles.

One thing is a green flag and its mate a red (or maybe pink) one. He's open and honest, I believe. He's been transparent about his negative side, which is perfectionism. I asked if that was a regret he had for his relationship with his wife and he said yes. Told me an example of how they were painting a room and he allowed her to tape off the floor cloth but not do the painting. "The fun part," I said. He said, "I didn't think she would do it the right way." I said, "Yes, she'd do it the way SHE does it." And we talked about the value of sharing an experience and having fun together, versus having the perfection of the final product. I get the feeling that's why he feels guilt and regret.

I understand some of this. But I do think it's a flag to consider carefully. He may need a meticulous partner who has little of my main weakness (ADD/disorganization) in her character. And, who's a great cook. I'm adequate but no chef, and likely never will be. He mentions it often (cooking and food) and I wonder if, because his wife had been such a great cook, he could ever adapt to being with someone for whom it's a low priority. I'm beginning to think maybe that's a deal breaker. Or perhaps even should be one. It's pretty obvious that it's a big focus of his....and I don't see that as automatically something I must make as important to me as it is to him. He is retired, I am not. I wonder if it's a gender expectation?

The key thing for me is whether his perfectionism is a quirk to learn about and manage lovingly and with humor, or whether his perfectionism expresses itself as a critical spirit. (Which can break the spirit of the one criticized, if it's constant.) I think he's a little obsessive and that maybe a perfectionistic engineer type is not what somebody like me should sign up for.

But it's too soon to know for sure. Quite a challenge to stay steady and continue, but I'd like to.

One other thing I noticed. Today he offered some observations about the warmth in my eyes and how sweet my smile was, and said how now and then something "hard" surfaces that surprises him. He wondered if that has something to do with my past marital experiences or experiences with my daughter (which he asked me to tell him about again today). He actually focused on an insignificant word choice in an email and had a big interpretation about how it showed this "hard" thing. (I went back and looked and that email was full of warm/friendly words as well. I responded, of course I have some sharp points, and they might come out. But I am never abusive. If I were nothing but sweetness I'd be a marshmallow.

I felt uncomfortable telling him about my brother and my daughter, because I thought he was sizing up whether a dysfunctional family should be a deal-breaker. But then again, if he's really evaluating me based on who they are...let it break.

I guess the lunch was both good and bad though I do feel a little deflated. I'm grateful that he's open about his thinking. I do feel myself backing off a bit, and for the first time wary of hurt.

Does this lunch story spark anything for you guys? Anything I'm over-interpreting or missing?

hugs
Hops

Twoapenny:
Hopsie, I'll throw in my thoughts for what they are worth (and I will add the disclaimer that I've been single for thirteen years so I'm not a relationship expert!).  But.............

The way you are looking at this - both practically and emotionally, acknowledging potential problems whilst recognising what is good - is pretty amazing.  It's so easy to fall into the 'my knight in shining armour has arrived' that I think the cool, yet kind, head you are keeping is fantastic so well done on that (I'm glad you've got your T to talk things through with as well).

I think him being open about the fact he's still dating is a good thing.  He could easily have lied and likely you'd not have known any different any time soon so I think the fact he is honest with you (even when he's telling you something you might not want to hear) is good, in my opinion.  Personally I think 'shopping' for a partner is what we all do and I don't think a businesslike approach to it is necessarily a bad thing.  I remember someone I used to be friends with who was going through the arranged marriage process (Indian family).  At first I was horrified that this smart, confident, well qualified woman was part of this process, but she explained to me that, because marriage is the aim, everyone is very open and matter of fact about it.  Initial contact is a phone call where they discuss main expectations - do you want children, how many?  Will the woman work or stay at home?  Will they live in their own house or with family?  What are your political views?  How do you feel about x, y and z.  And then based on that, they'd decide whether or not to meet and things would go from there.  How much time and heartache does that save?  Clear, concise, open conversations about really important things that often become reasons couples divorce.  I think that's a good thing.  So if he is 'shopping' for a bride, I think that shows he knows what he wants and he doesn't want to waste time waiting for it to come (sign of good self esteem, perhaps?) and to be fair, I think that's what we all do, it's just that most people aren't so upfront about it :)

I see no reason for you not to be dating as well, if you want to.  I think the fact that he didn't react negatively to you saying you were still open to dating is good; he's not got a double standard where he thinks it's okay for him but not for you.

I think the fact you can talk for two hours over lunch is a good sign and yes, you are right, lots of conversations and q and a sessions aren't wasted time, and neither is just enjoying time together and hanging out in different environments.  I think the most important thing is to enjoy what you do together without the end point becoming the sole focus?  Which I know is easier said than done :)

I think his transparency about his negative traits is a good thing.  He's aware that he has faults and is open to talking about them and acknowledging where he went wrong.  It could be that this is only the tip of the fault iceberg - that's true of anyone - but spending time together, as you say, is the only way to find out.  So far is he mostly telling you about his faults rather than doing them around you?  I think him telling you about things he's not great with (rather than just showing you by telling you what to do) is a good sign.  None of us are perfect and recognising that in ourselves is a good thing.

He may need a meticulous partner and a great cook, Hopsie, but what struck me about that was, what do you need?  You are not a wall flower waiting to be asked to dance :)  You are an enormously kind, compassionate, intelligent, emotionally accomplished woman who has so much to offer.  You've overcome some terribly traumatic events in your life without becoming bitter and resentful (a huge achievement, in my opinion).  You've very practically organised your limited finances without doing the damsel in distress thing and just marrying some bloke for his money.  You reinvented yourself repeatedly after losing your job in order to keep working and keep looking after yourself - smart, practical, diligent, wise.  It would be enormously fortunate for him if he happens to have enough qualities that you desire for you to consider him at all!  I think that's the red flag for me, that you aren't focusing on how wonderful you are and how lucky he would be to have you by his side (and I mean that in a kind way, not as a criticism :) ).

I don't think backing off slightly - to give yourself time to think and process how you feel, and work out which way round things are at the moment - is a bad thing.  And, yes, that possibility of getting hurt is tough to handle, I think because there's no way around it?  If we want to have other people in our lives we run that risk of being hurt.  Sometimes we can handle it, sometimes it's too much.  I know for me it's a barrier so I get that completely.  But personally I think that you need to make an ' I Am Bloody Marvelous' wall in your home and write up on big pieces of paper all the amazing things about you, Hops.  You have so many good qualities and you've overcome so much, you blow me away and I truly mean that.  I get the not wanting to get hurt or to find yourself trapped in another unpleasant situation but I think maybe spend the next bit of time really getting into your own mind that he would be really lucky to have you and if he has half a brain he won't let something like having to cook his own dinner get in the way of that.  Maybe take stock, put those reminders on the wall (I'm serious about that, I think you need to have things printed up in giant capital letters so you can't not notice!) but also have a good think about what you want in a man and how many of your boxes he ticks?  He may well be sitting at home now wondering if he's matching up to your expectations :)

I think it's amazing that you're going about this is such an open and honest way; it's very refreshing and brave of you to dip your toe in the water again (I know blokes make all my 'what ifs' bubble up and it's hard).  But I think you're going great guns and I hope the next date is a fun filled one that maybe takes the wobble off everything a bit :)

Love Tup xx xx xx

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