Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Heist on Something....
Twoapenny:
Hops, I think being able to communicate is always going to be the key, I think we all hear that and understand it (in all aspects of our lives). And yep, being able to talk and work through sticky patches is more important than never having sticky patches. He might welcome the change of not having to constantly plan and organise (and maybe you'll get close enough for him to organise your paperwork! He can be your inhouse Tup :) lol).
I think the fear is very natural and very normal and I think you're managing it admirably. Fear of being alone, fear of being with someone, fear of being with the wrong person - so many possibilities! But you're negotiating those choppy waters and making it look easy so more power to your elbow :)
I'm happy to read that post; it sounds like that talk has put you both in a better place to hear what the other is saying (or it may be more accurate to say B has caught up with you a little ;) ) xx
lighter:
--- Quote from: sKePTiKal on January 08, 2018, 05:11:12 PM ---Hey Lighter... he can't give that to Hops; she has to claim it on her own. Then, it becomes part of the foundation of and for the relationship to bloom when he says - oh, OK - and doesn't resent it.
--- End quote ---
Amber:
I think B has to give it, so Hops can claim it. Of all things.... that's one of the foundation blocks. It can't be wrestled away, or imagined, ime.
I've encountered men who pretend to give it, sans resentment, but then I found both men did so with a " bitch will pay" mentality they forged in the open, where I could see it. I'm good at pretending. I also attract PD men who lack respect for anyone, along with kind, healing spirits. They're mixed in, and so I share the obvious sign posts with Hops.
I know my only true regret, in relationships, is failure to honor myself and my intuition. I can say that I have good instincts, and boundaries. The failures were about enforcing my boundaries, and they crumbled inch by inch. Small increments, really.
Nice men, once they understand if they can understand, don't make a life out of......making a bitch pay for attempting to honor herself, ime. They step up, and honor alongside us. I've seen that with my own eyes, so I know it's real.
There are sign posts if we're able to see and accept them, ime. For me, some of those signs are still on fire. They color my views.... I think that's clear. There's also signs in moonlight, and sunshine. The hard to discern are presented on moonlit nights, but on fire just the same. I'm going cross-eyed with comparisons, so moving on.
Sometimes there is no respectful acceptance of a woman's boundaries or her right to have them, even if there's a bit of talk about it.
Sometimes there is the charade of acceptance.....scary.
Sometimes there is confusion, misunderstanding, then finally growth and honor when all seemed lost, ime.
Whatever happens, clarity is a good thing as we strive for balance and strike our bargains.
The saying....
We pays our monies, and takes our chances....:: nodding::
I think that's all I have to say about that.
Finally.
Lighter
Hopalong:
Thanks, Tupp. If B and I break up, I'll send you a plane ticket to come help me get organized!
And Lighter, thank you.
I don't completely follow the idea that he has to give it so I can claim it, as opposed to me claiming it from the get go so his permission isn't a factor....BUT. I still hear you, and respect (and need) your vibrating radar about boundary blunders, small or large. They've been there and must be dealt with.
It's how I imagine you being a martial artist -- vigilant, and with a very high-frequency awareness of threats. Even subtle ones, and that's what I appreciate so much about your commentary. Please don't withhold your insights even as I get excited when it goes well. Optimism balanced with caution...I need both to assemble the big picture. So far I'm working with puzzle pieces and the darker ones you move into view are essential truths too, as much as the rainbow sky. I don't hear paranoia, I hear experience.
Of course, we/I hope that over time B's decency and honor win out over his other traits. So far, I'm sensing habits of being "large and in charge." Some typical reflexes for someone entrenched in the kinds of climates he's lived in. However, I'm also hearing lately a lot of reflection, more insight than I'd expected, including some regret over how driven he was during his working life (regarding his wife).
In this most recent conversation, anyway, I really did not sense manipulation. He seemed to have a yearning to not just pour out feelings but also have effortful, two-way, respectful communication. He listens. And a theme that runs alongside my own habit of fear, is feeling respected by him.
That is an unusual and encouraging experience, as I've normally been attracted to brilliant but cynical men who'd see my soft side and compassion as things to exploit. B seems instead to see me as someone with goodness at the core, and he wants to be more tuned in to that in himself, I believe. (Careful, Hops, lest you make it up. Still, I think I'm receiving that signal.)
Even to myself, I do come across as a lot tougher emotionally than I used to be. Since my experiences with my boss, mother, brother and daughter, I am pretty unsentimental these days. I speak more often and more openly about my thoughts about the culture.
I didn't feel patronized but appreciated, respected. It was pleasing to see that he didn't seem fixated on winning or being "right." I honestly felt he was enjoying my mind, feeling stimulated by my thinking. Anyway, it was nice to feel respected and recognized as a thinker....
Thanks again to you both, I appreciate your inputs so profoundly.
love,
Hops
sKePTiKal:
Lighter, is it possible you and I are talking about 2 different things? Or different aspects of the same thing? I feel kinda dense, but I didn't really understand your POV and couldn't make it connect to what I thought I was talking about...
claiming the space to be a separate individual with their own life, who is engaging in relationship with someone who has THEIR own life. Those lives may have some aspects in common, but undoubtedly will also be different. Maybe I can't understand, because of my long history of believing that enmeshment = all relationships. It was my "normal" relationship and while I saw that other people had a different arrangement... it wasn't how Amber did "love" relationships.
Until I actually claimed my own life - to be me, by myself... separate - within my marriage to Mike. He didn't "give" me the space to do that, I just took it - in other words, claimed it. And no, he didn't like it very much. He liked being the center of my attention, 24/7/365. If I went out for an afternoon (even to do yard work), I got the "I missed you; I was lonely... and he wouldn't "do for himself" either. It seemed he was loathe and perhaps incapable of going anywhere by himself or to develop guy friendships to engage in activities; I had to be with him.
And when I did agree to stay with him, invariably he fell asleep on the couch. Even before he was sick.
Larry, ex#2... would force me to do things on my own from time to time. And he definitely was the opposite of needing that kind of attention... to the point where I felt alone in company with him. And yet - if I did attempt to "have my own life"... that wasn't permitted either. He was all about control.
So, I kind of pin-balled between extremes and was pretty confused until learning that it would be healthy to have my own friends to do things with... my own interests that I didn't necessarily engage in with Mike... and things I needed to do for myself. And it wasn't selfish to want that; have that. It didn't mean I didn't love him... but I was done with the enmeshment-style of relationship. I mighta overdone it some... but only by HIS standards.
Going on year 3 alone now... I have enough distance (emotionally) to see one reason I haven't actively been seeking another relationship is because I'm still learning to have my own life, take care of own emotional needs in a healthy way... and it is just plain easier without another person's wants/needs to consider. I guarantee if I do start getting involved with someone I'm going to be flailing, second-guessing, and over-analyzing too. And I do believe I'm more afraid of experiencing THAT, than I am of being lured into a relationship by deception or manipulation or dishonesty on the guy's part.
OK, I've probably just confused you more... your turn: try to unconfuse me about what you were saying.
Hopalong:
This is just rambling around in the space inside your dialogues, and happy they're happening. Me, still talking.
Glad you wrote all that, Amber. It makes so much sense that your chosen solitude is also curative for an enmeshment pattern. (BTW, I think B and Mike have real dependency in common and that'll be as big a challenge for me as it was for you...)
I think I'm scared of being controlled or dominated (but much less since that call). I have huge reflexive push-back and in fact am over-defensive. I was telling my T how hypersensitive I am to feeling pressure of any kind whatsoever (we're talking near-oppositional feelings...). Tried to come up with an image and got this:
I remember some glam events when I was younger. All purtied up. And a man escorting me wherever, would often place his hand at the small of my back as we entered a room. I got up and pantomimed for T, you know, that "gentleman escorts lady" gesture...? Then I said, imagine that you're wearing heels, walking carefully in a long dress. Then imagine that he slightly pushes you forward. His hand isn't just resting at your back, he's pushing a little, steering a little. We could call it "guiding" but that wouldn't be true to resistant-oppositional-near-paranoid me, who now thinks of that gesture with a huge desire to throw off the hand entirely. And kick him with my steel-toed fancy flats. (A grownup woman could just say calmly, I'm more comfortable walking on my own...or something like that.)
Nothing gracious about the inner reflex (and btw, this isn't even a situation, just an illustration) but I don't WANT to be "guided, steered" or especially "pushed" -- even subtly. I don't feel cosseted with such gestures, I feel diminished to "lady" (not strong woman with two feet) and, sorta, "trophy" not person. So even at this age I'm still navigating my rejection of all thaaaaat old stuff, while wanting genuinely to be grateful and kind and respectful of the good intentions that could accompany the gestures too. (You guessed it, B opens car doors. While I shiver, waiting...since I move faster than he does, I get there first. It's silly but I ain't fighting it.)
Believe me, neither of my two husbands could be bothered to do anything traditionally gentlemanly or let's call it basically considerate even apart from the feminist lens, so in fact, if I look at it that way, it could sometimes feel pleasant. Sounds like a reasonable thing, if I could try reasonable.... :lol:
Anyhow, I digress. What is really mattering to me, before B and I even try entering his kind of penultimate social soirees sometime maybe, which I imagine wouldn't even be that frequent...is in the now, he's been listening. Truly listening. And being respectful. I can't explain how reassuring that long conversation was the other day.
Although I have pathetic physical radar and dulled bodily intuition (thank you Lighter for the inspiration to pay more attention to this---remind me more!)...I do have pretty strong recognition of voice, the breath, rhythms, and words used in conversation. It may come from decades of poetry. I heard sincerity, effort and serious intent to do it well in B on the phone that day. Not a con.
Dunno why I'm falling on the floor so thrilled about that piece, except that it's a huge contrast to what I've experienced in relationships before.
(I think the reason being on the phone helped was: 1) He's goofily distracted and too swoony when I'm there --for now, it'll wear off-- for me to concentrate hard on verbal content; 2) When I need to talk about something I feel defensive or urgent about, maybe due to my ADD, I am less distracted on the phone. The phone concentrates what's happening into my ear and mind; in-person can overwhelm me if something feels very important or emotional. Huh. I never thought about it that way before, the possibly-ADD piece. But it's making sense now that I type it....(yup, took the meds this morning, hence typetypetypetype....)
I digress, ramble and interrupt. Eager to listen to y'all, carry on...
Oh wait. I forgot to tell y'all something. It's pretty self-explanatorily obvious and not a deal breaker. Not even creepy. But you'll get a better sense of where he is and what he's still processing as a not-quite-two-years widower after 46 years....
On our third meeting he asked me if I'd be interested in any of his wife's clothing--I think for two reasons: 1) the subconscious message which truly is fairly oblivious and 2) I think he's sensitive to me being relatively low-income and he's very frugal and concrete. And intends to be kind. To be gracious I accepted a nice corduroy shirt but her colors are generally not good for me and I don't want her stuff. Anyway, here it is two months later and the other day he asked again because he's ready to move it all out (and the practical piece--he goes, some of these things are lovely and still have the tags--meaning new). What's different is that this time I said, "You know B., I'll be honest. I would feel uncomfortable wearing your wife's clothing in your presence." And he immediately said, "Oh. Of course." (I thought I heard a forehead smack, not literally, but his tone was like that.) And the next day he just said he'd bagged it all up and taken it to donate. Sounded relieved.
So weird and unaware as it was, the moment he "got it" he did something appropriate about it. I wasn't creeped out. He's just a pretty transparent guy, I'm thinking. And that thought is making him feel better to me.
love
Hops
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version