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Heist on Something....

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Twoapenny:
I get what you mean, Hops, I want to be desired for who I am first, with the physical aspect coming second.  I think most men (I'm generalising, it could be just the men I've known in my life) tend to focus on the physical first, then the person.  And I do wonder (again from talking to men) how much Western society convinces men that women like to be complimented on their physical appearance, rather than aspects of their personality or their achievements?

But I think all of this is going the right way.  You're aware and you're very honest, Hops, including with yourself (and that's something that can be very hard).  You're willing to look at things from different angles, hear different perspectives, speak openly with him (and take the risk that entails) and listen to what he says.  No relationship (or person) will be perfect but I think open conversation and being able to speak your mind without worry is probably a very big component in a relationship being very good (or perhaps 'right for you' is a better way to look at it?).  He seems happy to take what you say on board and make adjustments.  He doesn't seem to be overly sensitive to comments and take everything as a personal criticism?  Which is good.  And you have such a good level of awareness that I don't think you're going to walk into some kind of elephant trap and suddenly find yourself stuck in something you can't get out of.

I think whatever goes on with your chap you are in a really good position to work with the situation and make sure you get what you need and want - with him, with someone else, by yourself.  I think it will all work out okay :) xx

sKePTiKal:
I'm laughing out loud Hops.

I have a "useful big brother" who is heavily credentialed as an engineer. Been getting to know him online for years now. To the point that we're intimate enough to share about our families. He and his wife have adopted kids to "rescue" them from awful life situations. You can see how I might have a little hero worship for him. This last set of twins, were adopted after their parents were killed in front of them. He's our age; has recently been diagnosed with MS - and is researching his butt off in his plentiful spare time now to find anything that can help maintain his quality of life, as long as possible. He's writing a book (I haven't asked yet what it's about.)

He's heard Twiggy's story; he has his own. We can talk about dissociation, the spiritual aspects of that... coping... and what "letting it go" really means. We are really good friends now - and despite both of us really needing the other from time to time as sounding boards - that's valuable enough as a relationship for both to relax in. Despite our different ways of approaching life and problems.

It's because of sharing that "over-analytical" tendency between us, that this friendship is possible. Sure, mine is applied most often to emotional and creative situations. But that's the connection. We can understand each other's "processing" that way. Almost to the point of being able to finish each other's sentences. I help him from time to time, dealing with problems that come up with both sets of sisters (the older two are now married) as they continue healing from their trauma. His approach is very simple: give them enough positive experiences, love, protection and firm, but gentle guidance that the trauma isn't the biggest thing in their lives anymore.

Having that one place - the processing mode, in analytical style - as a connection is what makes this friendship WORK. I think your ability to verbalize your processing - even the "dunnos" - when shared with B, will also open an opportunity for him to connect with you at that level. It's worth it's weight in gold to me, I know that. It also is an opportunity for him, to bare his soul to you - in a trusting space - and that may bloom into more.

As for the "fossilized feminist" - well, having grown out of that from Twiggy's days, I can only say that sometimes that body of ideas has backfired on a lot of women. Confused things even more. A good part of my life started from the premise that I could do anything a man could do (my way of course; upper arm strength still evades me) and just as well. But it cost me a lot too. It was only after learning that it was OK for me to matter enough, that my needs/wants were met sometimes TOO... that things started to get sorted out. Feminism doesn't understand the typical masculine psychology very well at all. It all gets reduced to dominance and power struggles in the most extreme areas; and to my way of thinking that's just not correct for the majority of men. That automatically makes them the "enemy"...

which then, gets in the way of relationships. Yes, men tend to express emotional attraction, like and love, physically. Sometimes they equate and confuse the two. It's a lie born of stereotyping, that men are more sexually oriented/needy than women... and I can attest to that personally. It's also not true that men think about sex more than women. Romance novels wouldn't be such a big section of the book market, if that were true. But women give physical affection, based on what's in their heads ultimately - combined with a good helping of emotion and hormones. And if we're seeing this natural human activity in terms of dominance/submission or a power struggle... that conflicts with our nurturing side, and our needs to be nurtured -- we'll be too paranoid to allow it. Yet, that's EXACTLY what we want... LOL.

OY. I still deal with this. Still a work in progress. But what works best for me, to separate my thinking and analysis of the balance of the relationship and feelings/actions within it... from feeling the feelings all by themselves and making ye olde monkey mind just SHUT UP for the duration of experiencing that sharing of physical comfort and pleasure. Swoons and melting... are the antithesis of the whole body of feminist ideas. But that's what relationships involve. Making out like teenagers, like Lighter said. FUN, letting down your hair, intimacy.

(And I'm not saying ALL of those feminist ideas are bad; but we shouldn't have to accept ALL the bad - to experience SOME of the good ones. And it may just be that some ideas are "bad for us" -- but "good for others". In the realm of "ideas" - the "one size fits all" concept has been incorrectly applied too many times, in too many ways, to the point that it invalidates the "rule of thumb" ideas prevalent in popular culture. All us humans are different; so how could it even be possible that all the ideas inherent in body or collection of ideas that evolve into an "ism" apply to everyone equally, without allowing for all the variables that make each human unique?)

Hopalong:
Although the interest and attraction were there when B and I met Oct. 2nd, it wasn't until Dec. 2nd that we acknowledged neither was dating others. (Before that he'd suggested he still was, but on that date he acknowledged that wasn't true.) Since that Dec. 2 date, our pace of seeing each other has picked up to a couple times a week (before that, 2-3 times a month).

Long story short, I'm attracted to him, enjoy the making out mostly. But I do feel pressured and a little trapped every time. It's not relaxed. I always feel he's pushing for more. He's always, always focused on getting me alone. He's been nice and pleasant when he's met my friends, but I sense so clearly that he primarily wants me indoors, on a couch, getting it on. It's like an aura. He's contained, and quiet, but I know the look on his face and he's made clear what he's thinking about and it just feels relentless.

If our pace and sense of progressing to that point were MUTUAL, playing with that energy as Lighter describes would be a delight. But it's not. He's ahead of me and I feel pressured. It is somewhat subtle but real and it backfires.

Tonight we went to dinner at 600. I had a busy workday and have a long one tomorrow. Around 800 we were done and he drove me home. I explained that I wouldn't invite him in because the house was a mess (and he'd mentioned at dinner that he was tired himself). His response concerned me. He looked pissed though he tries to mask it. We necked a few minutes more and then he just grabbed my breast. Not hard, but without any interchange of that energy. I was still and he just grabbed. Lightly but, it didn't feel inviting or affectionate. Felt demanding. He had a half-bottle of wine and said, sorta joking, you know I had brought wine for you. I said, oh I didn't assume, jokingly. And he said, jokingly, "Screw you." I said, well eventually yes, seems like we're heading in that direction!

Were we joking?

Dome part of this dance is me sensing he feels not only frustrated but entitled. I cannot help this -- my response to pressure to become more intimate is to recoil. Pressure. I don't like being pressured. And my response to anger, even controlled anger in small and subtle spurts, is to wanna run.

We've really been a declared "couple" not quite 3 weeks. I'll say again that he's a rich man who's experienced a lot of power in the workplace and he's also very physically focused, as an ex athlete. I'm not sure this is going to work.

(Because I feel pressured, and because I sensed his annoyance when I said I'd unable to invite him in this evening, when he resumed kissing me in the car I kept talking nervously. He just pressed on, ignoring the fact that I was talking. Later I wished I'd had the guts to say, When someone is chattering nervously when you feel like kissing, would it help to stop and ask about the nervousness? Or does it help to press on regardless? Hint: "being over-ridden physically while I was talking, even though it was a nervous talking--did not feel good.")

I don't know what to do. I'm afraid I'm sensing some stuff I can't deal with. Or don't want to.

I'll try to talk with him about it but my T is on vacay and I'm not sure I'll approach it right. I'll try. We're supposed to get together this weekend...

Hops

Twoapenny:
Hops, I'm just posting quickly and will post more later on, but I would say postpone this weekend - give yourself enough time and headspace to figure out how you feel and what you want/need to do next.  Don't be pressured or feel obliged.  The fact that you felt pressured and nervous bothers me.  The fact that you are sensing you will need to deal with 'stuff' concerns me.  Postpone this weekend.  Wait until you've spoken to T (although keep in mind T might not be so open to your needing to wait where the physical stuff is concerned).  But don't try to figure this out quickly or by yourself.  Wait until everything has settled down, until you feel relaxed, confident, assured about how you feel with the situation.  There is nothing wrong with not liking being pressured, or wanting to run from anger.  Those are healthy reactions warning you that something is off.  Heed them, and put the brakes on for the time being xx

Twoapenny:
Some more thoughts as I'm reading through again, Hops - bullet points, and with the caveat that I have a history of abuse so I am quite sensitive to 'man' stuff - but what's flashed at me reading through is:

You've only actually been 'a couple' three weeks.  And only seeing each other two or three times a week during that period.  Very early stages and you've been very clear about wanting to proceed slowly.  Three weeks isn't slow, by anybody's standards.  I don't feel there's any justification for him being impatient.

Indoors, on a couch, getting it on, is very low maintenance from his point of view.  No need to talk, dress up, engage with other people, enjoy experiences, explore.  Easy, indoors, little effort, physical needs met.  I don't read anything of you in there.

You mention feeling pressured several times.  I think this is a red flag.  You are a very wise, compassionate, well educated woman with a lot of (often unpleasant) life experience.  You've been very clear, precise and measured with him about what you want and what you are looking for.  If you're feeling pressured I think it's because he's putting you under pressure, albeit subtly (and that's a red flag for me, people who elicit feelings in us because their actions and their vibe don't tally with their words are potentially troublesome).

The after dinner exchange sounds unpleasant.  You've been out for a bite to eat, it's mid-week, you've got work again in the morning.  To my mind a kiss and a cuddle before heading indoors sounds great but boob grabbing?  Not the time or the place and, as you said, not on the same page as you.  The interchange about the wine seemed odd?  I can't quite put my finger on it but it felt as though the wine was supposed to get him through the door or something?  It doesn't feel jokey when I read it although I can't really explain why.

He has no right to feel frustrated or entitled so you don't need to be feeling you can't 'help' how you feel.  How you feel is exactly how I would feel in that situation.  You've been clear you need time - if he needs things to move quickly he has the option to move on - you've not given him any false flags or false hope.  He has no entitlement to anything, under any circumstances.  It reads as though you're worried about how you're reacting to him and that worries me.

You mention that he kept kissing you when you were talking.  You weren't reciprocating, you felt nervous and he just ignored all of that and carried on doing what he wanted.  Then you say that you wish you had the guts to say something and that bothered me, Hops, that you're feeling you need to summon up courage to deal with him?  This is not sitting well with me.  And then you mention you want to discuss it with him but you're worried you won't approach it right.  That concerns me as well.

I will hold up my flag of declaration - I'm no expert when it comes to relationships and I have additional issues because of the sexual abuse, but for me this raised a lot of red flags, Hopsie, more because of the way you're talking about it.  It sounds like he's knocked you off your stride, purposely or unconsciously I don't know, but it sounds as if you're doubting yourself and questioning yourself and you mention more that once trying to say or do things in a way that, essentially, won't bother him.  That concerns me greatly.  A part of me is wondering now if he's told you what he thinks you want to hear so that he can get what he wants quicker.  I worry when people's actions and mannerisms don't match the things they say.  From my perspective, there should be no assumption on his part that he's going to be invited in, nor that it's okay to touch you or carry on kissing you when you aren't reciprocating.  Personally I would want clear talking and sensitivity from a guy - the same way that you've been very clear with him and you're working to understand his point of view.  I think that needs to go both ways.  So I would say put the brakes on for now, and perhaps don't mention anything for now.  Perhaps just say you need to work or you need a little space and leave it to see if he tries to fix it or work out if everything's okay, instead of you doing it all?  I don't mean in a playing games way, but just sit back for a few days and see what happens without you steering the whole situation? xx

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