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Heist on Something....
Hopalong:
Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.
I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.
He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.
We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.
Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.
Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.
Thanks to you guys.
xxoo
Hops
sKePTiKal:
Another angle to this gem of a problem...
but I am aware that I'm probably going to be clumsy with words about it. (Still a major WIP for me.) Please bear with me; I know what I'm trying to say - I just don't rightly know how to say it concisely. So, back to telling stories on myself - by way of example.
Somewhere in the process of finally getting most of Twiggy's trauma processed down into a numbered item on a medical history form... I discovered that even with my trusted gentle lover-husband... I was starting to freak out about sex. Oh, I was still very much interested and enjoyed myself - but there was something startlingly scary about it. Moments of abject terror. After all these years. Made me want to pull back, stop, get enough distance to analyze it under a microscope. Conundrum city.
I knew the problem was completely mine; something in my head/feelings that hadn't been completely totally addressed yet. Throw in the physical changes with menopause and trying to make changes in a "comfortable & comforting routine" with Mike, with new instructions... and well, that part of our relationship went to hell in a handbasket right before he got sick and KNEW he was getting sick (without sharing that with me of course.) Maybe that part of me - the intuitive, sensitive part - WAS picking up on this reality... but those are never at the verbal level, when I get a "knowing"... and my reaction was a precursor to major loss. It's hard to tell, even now. It could've just been some unprocessed fragment of Twiggy's experience too.
Well, that was just a MESS for me to wrap my head around and poor Mike, patient though he always was with me, was a lot more sexually driven as his way of expressing intimacy than even I was. And he couldn't help but take some of that personally - even though I reassured him repeatedly, that he shouldn't because I didn't consider it anything he was/wasn't doing that was "wrong". The fear would just pop up anywhere anytime without warning.
It never did get resolved between us.
But I've had more time to look at it and what I think is that sometimes, things like this solidify in our minds/feelings and become roadblocks on the path of change. That my reaction - that odd disembodied and totally irrelevant, irrational fear - caused me to act & feel certain ways that totally mucked things up. Like perhaps a pattern that seems to take on a life of it's own - and that we give belief to - belief in it's reality, instead of a passing feeling based on past life experience. And it stops the flow of the present moment; gums up the works in our heads... and being with someone else. We immediately react and shift our center of gravity into different perceptions, feelings and awareness states.
I can't really call it bad - because usually that reaction was what kept me safe numerous times. Or it was perhaps a bit of the dissociation reflex from Twiggy's experience. But I know it's damned inconvenient and frustrating - not just for me; it causes confusion and uncertainty and doubt in a relationship. I honestly dunno after looking at it for a long time now - what it really is or was.
So, I wonder... if there is a pattern in my feeling-mind that's been invested with enough energy that is part of the problem with me. That gets in the way of me just relaxing, going with the flow, or being COMFORTABLE with saying... wait, let's do something different - try this instead - or even, wow - whatever THAT was, I'm just not in the mood anymore. Comfortable with the idea of letting a gate into the fence of a boundary between "I and Thou"... to allow myself; give myself permission to experience that intimacy. To PLAY.
Maybe the fear is one of enmeshment. And it would make sense to a feeling-rational mind... for a fear to come up at such a time. Especially as much as I have spent in that kind of "intimacy" in my life and once I did get past it... any and all whiffs of it (including real intimacy) put the fear of God into me.
I dunno for sure. Just talking this one out because from things you've said Hops, I was seeing some fragments of some parts of the same thing. I've been fumbling around in the dark on this one for awhile - so I could just be seeing things in what you've described, too. And have only just now (above) connected a fear of enmeshment with my intimacy reticence.
Comments? Insights? Is this a totally wacked out theory that I've dreamed up to keep monkey mind busy? LOL.
lighter:
((((Amber))))
Reading your post makes me feel protective for you. I have no idea how your past experience wouldn't show up in your life. Of course it did. I'm glad dear sweet Mike was a part of your world.
Your post did bring up some poignant moments that might apply to Hops' situation.
When my B came along he was very in my face, hold my beer while I went to the bathroom, ask me out all the time, lean into my space....moving faster than I could process.
I forget exactly how it happened, but I let off a verbal warning shot, and instead of giving me more space, he inexplicably closed more distance. I said true things that made him go away for good.
That gave me plenty of space, and I used it to reflect. I missed B, his kindness, his unwavering.... whatever it was going to be. My instincts said to bring him back.
I wrote a letter explaining why I needed the space I'd asked for, and he was still clutching it when I opened my front door. He'd flown to me after reading it, and it felt just the right thing to do.
From that day he was very careful about not rushing me, which provided the space for
Me
To
Close
The
Distance.
And when I did, for I surely did, he was all....
"What are you in? Wait a minute?"
Adorable, and he had my heart particularly after he heard my response....and you might guess it Hops.. .
I wanted to make out like teenagers.
::Grin::
His stress melted, and what you called slow joy did begin.
Looking back, B was a driven type A CEO type, but his imperative in relationship was to do too much, protect and please. I'm not gonna lie. So was mine. I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.
It was the best decision I ever made. Soon enough, there was a cadence to our life that felt right, and I was a very happy woman in a reciprocal relationship with a peer. Not King Baby, or a taker/ exploiter personality, which happens sometimes to those of us who feel we need to prove our worth, IME.
What aI notice about the takers....they tend to make comments designed to tear us down, sometimes very small comments at first, or large sometimes. I've heard both versions.
"I'm not attracted to you anymore, why is that?". Or some such accusations, as though it was my fault, or at all true, which wasn't the case. There was obvious lust, and plenty of it.
Particularly when spoken by a man, who couldn't engage in sex bc he reached nervana on approach several times.....was..... inexplicably.... amusing to me. I wasn't able to identify cruel manipulative behavior when I saw it, heard it. I don't know what was wrong with me, but I got it right with B.
B cared for his mother, and did kind things for her. The cruel little men didn't. How does your B speak about his mother...lost wife?
There's a difference between men who lean in to protect and cherish, and men who take and exploit for pleasure, IME.
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in between, except perhaps that sometimes things aren't what they seem. Sometimes they're much worse, or better, than you can possibly imagine.
What is your B's imperative?
Does he want to be there for you, protect you, grow old with you?
Or is he worried about made up things, designed to chip away at your self esteem? There's evil in that. I've seen it up close, and made the mistake twice.
I'm glad you had an ok time last night,Hops.
Lighter
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on December 23, 2017, 10:32:00 PM ---Evening went well! He told me he understood I'd felt "threatened" by his behavior (I said not threatened, but I did feel pressured). And he said he was not going to push or press about physical intimacy but let me indicate what I was into/ready for. I was so relieved and said Thank you! Then talked a little bit about how that energy feels nicest to me if it's mutual, and there's space for both to reach out to dance in it. But if it's coming from one side like a fire hose, my natural instinct is to retreat.
I think he heard me. He was true to his word, enough that we snuggled on the couch through a whole movie without me feeling he was about to jump at me. Kiss, hug, handhold, backscratch, and it just felt calmer. I relaxed more than I ever have though I still was a little jumpy.
He would now and then mention how difficult it was to restrain himself, but not in a snide way. I am baffled at how overwhelmed with desire he appears. It would be flattering but I needed him to contain it better to give me time to get used to him and so forth. Just as Tupp said, as much time as I need. I am relieved to have spent a long stretch of time with him where he didn't amp it up.
We went to dinner at a bistro near his house and it was very pleasant. And he's come up with a nice idea for a weekend getaway, so I think we'll probably do that soon.
Still felt very eager to get home, retreat here to my cozy independent space. It's just a massive, huge, big, large adjustment -- having had my privacy (sometimes in anguish but not always) and the freedom Amber talked about -- since 1995.
Hoo boy. This is hard work and is taking courage but for tonight, I'm still hanging in.
Thanks to you guys.
xxoo
Hops
--- End quote ---
I'm glad you had a nice evening, Hops.
Something that has become apparent to me recently (in light of all these sexual assault/harassment allegations that keep coming) are that there are a lot of men who have been programmed/conditioned/whatever you want to call it, to believe that women (a) all want the same thing and (b) are very focused on their appearance/sexual prowess/needing to feel wanted. I was talking to someone just recently (male friend) and he was talking about paying a woman a compliment on her appearance and how he felt he couldn't do that anymore (unwanted attention). I said "well why don't you compliment her on the way she does her job or how she handles her kids or parks the car or whatever else it is you notice about her - something that isn't related to her looks?" and he was dumbfounded - it had honestly never occurred to him that a woman might not actually give a stuff about how she looks and might be much more into the way she is (a byproduct of our superficial, appearance driven society, I fear!).
So while I'm not suggesting for a minute that B isn't overwhelmed with desire for you (why wouldn't he be!) it did occur to me that maybe part of it is just that societal conditioning that women want to be told they're attractive, desirable and so on. Maybe he's still in that loop (particularly as it doesn't sound like he's dated for fifty or so years :) ) I don't mean that as a criticism of him, it's just something I've noticed in men I know when we've been talking about men and women and that whole dating/relationship conundrum.
I'm glad you had a good evening. I'm glad you're challenging him - not in a confrontational way, but I bet he hasn't met many ladies like you and I expect it's a very refreshing change for him :) xx
sKePTiKal:
--- Quote --- I recognized something had to change, and I consciously made the decision to get used to being cared for, and receiving.
--- End quote ---
ding! ding! ding! That's a big piece of the puzzle, Lighter. The reciprocity of that in a relationship was very unusual for me. I really didn't have any experience of that until Mike. I was programmed to take care of my mom & brother; later programmed to take care of a man & the kids. Never entered my mind to ask what it would be like for someone to take of me, sometimes.
I kind of disagree with the idea in Tupp's observation about compliments re: looks being "off limits". Especially as we get older. It helped me relax a lot that Mike would let loose the casual "hubba-hubba" or tell me "Wow.... you look hot!". I relaxed even more, when I noticed him being protective of me when other men would also make that kind of attention known. (That kind of thing isn't automatically a red flag re: possessiveness.) Sorta a little smile and nod in their direction - yeah, she's with ME; you're too late. We worry a lot about what age does to our bodies - even if it's subconscious. So the compliments are needed feedback. Total silence on that topic - after I've spent 2 hrs primping - would make me wonder if he hadn't even noticed. (Which is why guys these days are basically resorting to more feral relationships with women, IMO. No one seems to know what the rules are and they commit a foul, no matter what they do when a woman can't just say "Thanks" and be secure enough that she's not seeing it as an "assault".)
But then, I readily admit I'm a "hot mess" on this topic... and until I sort out the sexual conflict thing I described above, I probably won't be venturing into any relationships or dating or whatever, because it just wouldn't be fair to some poor guy.
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