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Heist on Something....
Hopalong:
PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!
I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.
I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber! :lol:
(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...) :lol:
Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!
xo
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on December 25, 2017, 03:20:09 PM ---PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!
I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.
I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber! :lol:
(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...) :lol:
Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!
xo
Hops
--- End quote ---
Aw, Hopsie, that would be heaven - although we may have to talk in separate rooms so I don't give you my cold :)
Yes, tone and context is exactly it. There's a big difference between a nice comment from someone that you care about and some random shouting at you in the street. And I think as I've got older I've just found myself yearning for deep conversations, interesting interchanges that make me think, whereas when I was younger I was always in such a rush I tended to avoid men who wanted to talk at length. Maybe it's just to do with growing up at different rates - if a middle aged man is still thinking like a nineteen year old would it won't gel with a middle aged woman who's changed and grown over the years. You're right, it's your unique experiences - I'm really drawn to people who want to know what my unique experiences are (and who are willing or able to share theirs with me) :)
Hopalong:
I swear, when I take my ADD med I can write forever, so this is a loooong ramble.
B will be meeting my dearest friends tonight, 12 years older. Like B, they are more conservative than I am (old-school courtesies, widespread civic commitments, fairly traditional gender roles--I think we've voted similarly, though). I am way more llifestyle-liberal (60's history i.e., sexdrugsrock'nroll, anti-authority, feminism). They are better human beings than I will ever hope to be. Their liberality is in loving generously, without fear, and with sacrifice. They are deeply religious, never prosyletized me one bit despite my agnosticism, and simply live out their religion. They adopted two children with disabilities, always had refugees living in their spare bedrooms, volunteer seriously (I'm more talk than action) and adopted me too, when I was a sad divorcing neighbor who needed a semblance of family.
They've continued to care about me throughout divorce, my D's decline into mental illness, my loss of parents, brother and other family, and financial troubles. They stay over on their way to see their own D once or twice a year. After some terrible events in my town last summer I went straight to them for a few days of comfort.
Here's my question for y'all this morning. I know that they know what goodness is because they embody it (though they'd never say so). So I'm eager to see what they think of B when we have dinner together tonight. They also practice continual forgiveness of others because it's a core religious principle.
I don't think it's reasonable to put the responsibility on a few friends' impressions and worry theirs may be "too positive" anyway because of their default practice of loving and accepting everyone. If it'd be revealing, I'd ask them to really assess B's character as honestly as they can based on the first impression of a few hours. What I wonder is if their kindness might cause them to overlook masking behavior on his part, or to reinterpret it in the kindest light? (I've seen in my family the downside or "blinding" effect of patriarchal religion when it skates past abusive or oppressive behavior in males.) Or whether because they care for me, they'll look at him more deeply than they otherwise might, and perceive subtle red flags I miss?
I ask because there are just two things, really, that have given me serious pause about B so far. We have moved past them mostly, and he's made a kind of about-face. The first was the sexist "joke" he shared (that diner-type restaurants hire the "ugliest women", his good buddy said, ha ha ha). The second was the night I declined to ask him in and his kissing/touching suddenly got angry and aggressive.
Something to bear in mind is that when I told him how I felt about the sexist joke (that he was dissing an exhausted blue-collar woman who likely had two jobs and, given the affordable housing shortage in this area, may have to drive an hour to get to work) -- he said with no squirreling, I was being a jerk. The second thing, which killed my attraction temporarily, he said he would not do again (pressure me to go faster than I wished) and the last time we were together, he kept his word.
In both of these instances, when I spoke up about things that had disturbed me, he changed them promptly. I think that is a very good thing!
What I don't know, because of my history of overlooking red flags and judging poorly who'd be an appropriate mate, is whether his changes were just to move us along and get a woman installed in his life asap, or whether they're a sign of a person who really does want to grow, offer me his best self and build happiness.
I could boil this post down into something simple, and y'all have already given me incredible, astute guidance. So if you're sick of offering insights to apply, you're off the hook! Truly.
What it boils down to is reflecting more clearly this morning that my real issue is trust. Of myself as well as him. How do I know that despite external, political and social differences, I can trust this person at his core? The two "bad things" were red flags for me and I do respect my judgement about those two events. I felt very solid in my awareness that those were not okay for me. His responses, however, were entirely non-defensive and really surprised me. But can I trust them?
My second marriage was a Jekyll and Hyde experience that revealed to me that I'd missed a forest of red flags and there was serious damage in my mate, with consequences that were devastating to me (and my D).
So that's my baggage, which is blocking my view and clouding my lens.
I think just writing all this I know the answer: other people can't fix trust for me. I have to begin trusting that I've learned enough from my mistakes and that I have functioning insight and intuition sufficient to help me choose wisely. I need to believe in something. I know I believe in these friends' goodness (and in y'all's, god knows). And often I've gone it alone out of stubborn independence and made really crappy decisions for myself.
But I remember Tupp reminding me I've done some things in my life pretty intelligently. Maybe what's happening now is I'm trying to believe I've acquired enough emotional intelligence since divorcing in '95 that I actually could do a better job of it this time.
There sure is a lot of temptation -- a gentler life, a committed partner, less loneliness and worry, a bit of travel and some fun. My head-down march into old age alone and face its fearfulness, just because I've put my head down and marched into so many other very very hard situations .... is that just habit? Can I really let down my guard and let go a little? Let someone else offer me some protection and strength in this chapter?
Wow. Early morning Rx.
I love you guys. No need for novel-length responses...this is just me, my brain, and remembering the med, which if I applied it to my novel, would mean I'd be on chapter 10 by now!
xo
Hops
PS--So on impulse I just called him up and told him I had a big think this morning and kind of peeled away another layer of fear due to my past poor judgment. I told him I realized I've been asking myself whether maybe with him it'll be safe to risk more vulnerability, and that I'm trying to peel back another layer of armor. And that for some reason he's making me feel like taking that risk. Or something to that effect. He sounded really happy and told me he had a huge smile on his face. I heard joy in his voice. My inner pit bull can return, but it was a scary-nice moment.
Twoapenny:
Oh, Hops, bless you, I hear and understand everything you've said, ADD meds or not! :)
Quick responses (and by that I mean I'm responding by my instincts rather than thinking too much about things because I find that usually works for me) -
I think your friends will likely love him and think he's wonderful, charming and a great match for you (which from many of the things you've written he is in many ways and at many times). I doubt they will pick up on subtle red flags; the only people I know who pick up on subtle signs are generally those who've been through eons of therapy, read every self help book going and worked on themselves endlessly. The signs of manipulation and control are so subtle that even explaining them to other people is difficult, because when you say he did/said x, y and z it never sounds like that big a deal (except it is!). So I'd be inclined to just enjoy the time with them and not pay too much mind to what they think about him.
What I think would be interesting - given his comments about being annoyed that you were talking about friends instead of about your relationship on the boob grabbing night - is to see how he interacts with your friends and how he is with you afterwards - is he snippy about them, does he seem agitated, does he feel he's due a reward now he's met them, etc etc. I think that might be more revealing than what your friends think of him.
With regards to trust - I think there's only so much trust anyone can give in a relationship. I think what you need to trust is your ability to see, focus, speak, take time to think and be true to yourself in these situations. Personally I find people I don't know very well making sexist/racist/pick your theme comments really off putting - some things can be said in jest to people you know well but when getting to know people I find I'm put off very quickly by people saying unpleasant things (and just saying them puts me off - why be unpleasant? It's not more effort to talk about something nice or make a nice comment). I know you are similar in that outlook, and equally know that he's of a different kind of personality (and generally one that hasn't had to cope with being on the receiving end of a lot of that sort of thing - white, male and affluent) so he may genuinely not have perceived what he said as being unpleasant. You've picked him up on the things you're not happy about and he's responded well. Maybe too well - again, I think the only way you'll know is to see how things play out. If there's a pattern of him saying or doing something, you having to address it, him apologising and then going on and doing the same thing again then that would be difficult to cope with. But equally, as you say, maybe he's just used to people not speaking up around him - he might be enjoying the challenge :)
So I think just keep on keeping on. Time, conversation, his friends, your friends, weekends, holidays, time at home, time away from home - I don't think people can keep facades up indefinitely so as time goes on I think you'll see whether he's open to learning and growing (with you) or whether he's just keeping you sweet so he gets what he wants quicker. I think just keep focusing on you - your pace, your heart, keeping yourself safe emotionally - it's hard when the carrot of not being alone for ever is dangled in front of you. It's easy to ignore the red flags because the alternative is nicer but I think you've been down that road before so I don't think you'll make that mistake again.
I'm keeping everything crossed! And hoping it's all good :)
Love Tup xx
Hopalong:
Thank you, (((Tupp)))!!!
That really helped; I'm lucky you were available so fast and your reply was reassuring. Mainly because you were back to reality and paying attention and actually trusting myself, whereas I was tying myself up in an elaborate ball of analysis plus fear.
I think when he told that joke he was casting about for something amusing since I'd been frustrated by the waitress. He described himself early on as someone who feels compelled to "fix things" (or as my T suspected, perhaps codependent), so maybe he was just blurting out something related to diners to distract me. He didn't seem to find it hilarious but he's not a natural joke teller, so passed on something a buddy had said. Stupid (and sexist) but not shocking. Maybe, too, he laughed along then because he's been stepped in macho culture and male dominated stuff his whole life.
What impressed me was how directly and simply he responded when I shared how I felt about the joke. He said, "I was being a jerk" in a tone that sounded real. He didn't deflect, call me an over-sensitive feminazi, he just owned it. Same later when I explained the resistance/anxiety I felt when he over-rode my retreat from touch (he wasn't scary, just tuned out). He owned that too and did something about it.
If both of those reactions are an indicator of character, actually I may be quite lucky. He definitely has lived a life of responsibility (won a spot at the Air Force Academy, stayed married and faithful for 46 years despite wife's serious issues, continues to counsel his former partners in business, is in close touch with daughter and granddaughters). It seems as though honesty and loyalty are big priorities.
How he's reacted to meeting my other friends has been friendly and open, and he's had nothing snide to say afterward. (He did make explicit how much he liked my alpha-gf but perhaps not her snarky husband, but wasn't nasty about the hub.) He was gracious with another couple and bonded well with the males there, though he didn't have much chance to talk to the women (only one other than my gf and me).
So given who my visiting friends we'll see tonight are, can't imagine he won't respond well.
Thank you for reminding me to calm down. After I shared increased vulnerability with him this morning, I reacted internally with an anxiety spurt. But given my past I think that's pretty normal, not an indicator that it was dangerous.
Spent all morning processing all this and now will be nearly late to work and have to tidy the house in a panic just before my friends arrive. What else is new?
Have a great day, everybody. More later.
love,
Hops
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