Heist on Something....

[sKePTiKal]

Good one Hops!

[Hopalong]

My T and I stared at each other and said, "compatibility." Talking about B. There are ... things.

Two examples.

He's met 10 of my friends. Out of town important friends the first night they were here. I've met four of his friends: two married couples. So he tells me last week that 3 of his closest friends from the Academy (we're talking college days!) are coming and spending two nights and days (golf) with him. I think yay! Meeting guys he's known for so long! I ask. He demurs. Doesn't explain why. Finally he indicates that I would meet his friends "if they had their wives with them."

IOW, though I could easily come out for an hour to just say hello and enjoy a brew with them...I'm not welcome. I'm sorry but since they're all 73, my chances of meeting important old pals of his may be few.... and I loathe his explanation. Thing is, I understand that this may be his comfort zone but...I do not care. It's a sexist zone and makes me feel less than.

Next. He has one driven, ambitious, successful, remarkable grand-D who's very like him in that and finished college in 3 years. Her sister (last year of HS) is still home, during a period when her parents have separated and reunited, etc. Her Dad has PTSD. Her mom (as B's old neighbor told me anyway) is big on "tough love." So. They all come out to his area for dinner Saturday (I'm not included because B is "feeling awkward" around his family). Okay, I can see that's a pretty sensitive area and needs to be timed comfortably. Five months might be too soon.

But. He tells me about how his 2nd grandD (after describing the Marvellous Grand-D #1 at length). He goes, well she comes in and gives me a big smile and a big hug, but then she goes quiet. I ask her, "How's school? Are you having fun?" and she's got nothing to say. It irritates me." I ponder this later and realize, I TOTALLY identify with her. It's his poking to smile, to act cheerful whether you're feeling that way or not, and having a social script. I can imagine: "Yeah Grandpa! School's great! I'm really happy right now! Looky, see me smile!" He'd be totally happy with her faking it, Stepford style.

Grrrrr. I don't doubt for a second that he loves his "lesser" grand-D. But I can instantly imagine what it's like to be under his dominating, insistent scrutiny.

So on sexism grounds (can't meet his "unwived" friends and my feelings about his attitude toward his grand-D #2) ... I'm feeling sour about our chances today.

Not a decision moment, just observation, reflection, etc. And that's why I'm going so slowly....

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

uhhhhh.... this raises my hackles Hops.

Relationships are living things. Or at least in my experience they are. One person doesn't get to tell others how to behave, in order to please him or her. You enjoy the person for who they are; they SEE YOU... and allow you to see them. Hence, trust & intimacy. That waxes & wanes, granted.

I'm not talking about feminism or any of that way of defining male/female interactions.

It's being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes, and understand their being. Knowing that you aren't the end all be all "authority" on how anything is supposed to be... and then taking that leap of faith to "see what happens". Because affection means you see them for who they are; you enjoy them and being with them... not for what they can supply you, or how well they are "trainable" to pleasing you.

There are different reasons why people aren't capable of doing that in deeper relationships than the casual friendships, where a transactional interaction (I do this for you; you do this for me) is more reasonable.  I don't have to spell those out to you.

I think I mentioned that after Mike, I've set a pretty high standard for some guy to meet, if we're going to be involved past the "dating" stage or initial getting to know you stage. I won't accept anything less than another human being who isn't looking to possess me, or make into something I'm NOT. I worked too damn hard to get where I am now... and if that seems to need "adjusting"... well, then, he's looking for someone who's not me.

I refuse to believe that men like that are all that rare.

[Hopalong]

Yeah. Thanks, Amber.

I don't intend to demonize him and my hackles give me a headache if they stay up.

But still. The truth is his self-focused scripts and stuff, no matter what explains them, just wear me out. So on a simply practical level, I'm asking myself -- given how often this stuff happens, do I really want to continue down a path to a permanent commitment with someone who, intentionally or not, would just by being himself, wear me out?

I don't think so.

I'm holding back until we see the couples-T on Tuesday. But unless we experience a big turnaround then, I'm thinking that deep inside I know the answer.

Don't mean to give y'all whiplash in case I come back all smiles from another "good talk." That's possible, but this is where I am today.

Eternal thanks for putting up with it.

xxoo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

No doubt, reading your description triggers my own experience dataset. So my response is based on viewing things from that lens. I also heard similar from Holly just the night before. Her job on this current production ends in a week or so... and she was approached about taking another in DC. It's different work, and only temporary - 6 weeks or so. But it became an issue, because Matt said she never asked him how HE FELT about her taking this job. (And he's recently taken one that he didn't discuss or feel he needed to "ask permission" to accept... so....)

There are lots of explanations that exist outside of my own limited experience. So, I make no claims to it being accurate. But I really do have an issue with people who act as though other people exist only to serve their needs and be what they want them to be. No matter how pleasantlly that request or demand is delivered. I'm more likely to not resist if it's a sincere request based on caring about ME... than if it's merely: I don't like you this way.

Some relationships I believe, must have the space and security built into the structure to allow each participant the room to BE, and react and change/grow... and go through difficult things, without risking the existence of the relationship. Is that naive? Idealistic? Possibly.

But where there is enough of that then, it's way easier to live with the daily irritations that are simply a fact of life. For both people.

[Hopalong]

Yes and yes. Thanks again.
Btw, my "yeah" was me making a depressed noise...not being dismissive of your post. Which was excellent. (Just in case...since we're here with little black squiggles and no eye contact, drat it!).

I didn't think your response was disproportionate at all, and your latest Matt tale is a perfect fit with the way I think B usually reacts. I must give B credit for effort because in a lot of situations, once I've explained something, he alters his behavior somewhat. But we all have built-in limits.

I think it was the grand-D story that really stuck a pin in me. I feel so badly for her, a child I've never met, and could instantly recognize the prodding and lack of empathy and irritable judgement from B.

My poet pal told me that at dinner last weekend, she watched micro-expressions of disapproval flicker over B's face. When her bf made a comment about something B didn't agree with, she said she was watching him closely. I found that interesting. And I trust her perceptiveness.

Oh well. I hope I've over-judged or perhaps over-reacted to all this. And maybe there will be a breakthrough in counseling. But I have a feeling it's just me coming out of a wishful daydream.

And...your comment about "space" got me thinking. I hope I'm not being selfish myself, as in not giving B enough space w/in "us" to figure out what hurts people he's close to. Or what hurts me. I think him making clear I wasn't welcome with both his family and three old friends in the same week kind of got to me. But maybe it isn't all about me either. I dunno.

I do think any person in a new-ish relationship (especially when I was trying to break up with him a month ago and we're now in counseling to figure out whether to be together)...would have every right to insulate their family from having hopes about someone new in his life. Likewise, maybe he has the same feeling about these old friends. But he didn't have it about his close friends on the Shore that we stayed with for two days/nights, which is inconsistent. Both of them made it super clear how much they liked me, which seemed to please him. In hindsight, maybe that's because it was okay to visit them because there was "a wife" for me to spend time with. I did and enjoyed her company. But it hadn't dawned on me until this thing with the Academy pals that he thinks that way. Socially, a woman has to be in the women pen, then she can be around. (Busted, but that's how I took it...)

I remember one night at dinner there when there was just a general lively conversation about all sorts of things and I was knowledgeable about a few of them. B looks over the table and says, I had no idea you knew so much about so many things. You've impressed me! The latter just somehow felt weird to me. As though an invisible word was "you've actually impressed me!"

I dunno. Maybe this is an Nspot of my own. The truth is, the way I felt about his compliment was not complimented. I just felt, ummm, do we need to alert the media that the woman you've been with for five months is demonstrating intelligence or being informed? And...(evil)...do I care that you're IMPRESSED? I felt as though he was Mr. Big patting me on the head, exec style.

But on the other hand I feel like I am an offended porcupine and that is ego or Nworse. So I worry.

love
Hops

[Hopalong]

I'm drained.
Broke up with B.

Just couldn't face our next date in a few days w/o telling him how I feel, and realized once I was telling him that I really do believe it: the differences in worldview (especially in people-view) are Just Too Big.

It was a gentle, sad, painful conversation, in which neither of us blamed the other. I am grateful.

But drained....
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, I could pontificate some more about my thoughts on relationships... and I probably will, but not right now.

Big hugs for now. Talk it out some. I know it's probably still all rolling around in your head. I don't think your ego/possible n-spots were at all at play here. It just felt wrong to you, to try to be what B was saying he wanted you to be... as if that's supposed to be the ticket into a relationship and all your dreams will come true... "if only" you could stop being you and be his version of you, instead. What you would be, if you met all his criteria, when, where and how he "requested" you be. All the time.

To me, that's a "not good enough as you are" message.

And I don't think any of us would think that "felt right".

[Hopalong]

Thanks so very much, Amber.
It means a lot to let it rip here, truth.

I feel sad because B feels sad and I still love the well-intentioned, striving, try-so-hard guy. He really isn't a jerk. I think he just has such a deeply, deeply wired attitude of "I am the leader" that he doesn't catch on to how that in close relationships, especially with females or at least this fearful/feisty one, acting like the general isn't the positive the very same behavior was in athletics, the Air Force, or the Pentagon or the executive suite.

I think that's it. He has his inner limitations on controlling that part of himself, and it's partly because he's a victim of his own success. He threw himself into being successful (by acquiring power and leadership roles and leaping into serving with all his heart whatever noble organization he was steeped in) from boyhood on, and when women and girls around him become unhappy, he can't connect the dots. I know he suffers over this. And I don't blame him, it makes perfect sense.

So we have the good-hearted dominating general, and the over-sensitive poet feminist who can't help feeling hurt and we're just...not a mix. Not for the long haul, I think. And it's sad we can't because we both were lonely and we both tried very hard to build a bridge we could live on.

I miss him. His snuggly sweet domestic side that my pooch knows is just the nicest Pillsbury Doughboy.

But ... Patton keeps popping up and running the tanks over feelings. Not even on purpose, just his nature. And I don't seem capable of changing my nature either. Sensitive + resistant. Ooof.

 

Hops

[Hopalong]

I'm feeling better.

At peace and relieved.

Very sad I have made B sad.
Sent him a message that if it'd help at all
for closure, glad to meet once more with the T.

But I don't expect him to take me up on it.

I just felt a whole lot of tension ebb away.

And my irises are going absolutely nuts out
front, really beautiful.

This was a very good experiment with B and I'm
glad we went for it. I have learned a lot and feel
grateful, not bitter. We're just not the right fit.

Thanks everybody, for holding my hand during this
very long thread!

love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Goodness! Of course we'd hold your hand, as many times as you've held ours... and the back & forth you went through seems par for the course, not crazy at all. Can't think of any more important a decision to make for oneself. I don't think there's a happy medium really, between over-analyzing something this important and just blindly jumping in throwing caution to the wind. (Well, there is... but not even I have over-analyzed it enough to figure out just what it is... LOL.)

maybe.............. it's just as simple as whether you feel happy most of the time. And whether the things that feel unhappy... are important enough to you, that they would grow over time into serious resentment and unhappiness?

Dunno. My viking evaporated after I said I didn't really like the music he shared with me. I just don't go in for angry, hateful at the world, testorone-filled noise. I don't imagine he'd like my folk music either. But that seems like a pretty superficial "must have criteria" doesn't it?

C'est la vie...

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Amber. Such incredible support.

I think you're right. Definitely there were happy times, but B and I ran on different current. I'm becoming convinced that in most cases, hard wiring is more powerful than nurture and as a youngun, that wouldn't have occurred to me. I thought the rest was romance novels.

I think I would've become chronically sad because of it. And it's not his fault. I just don't have enough carapace to let those (to me, loaded) things keep bouncing off. It's a shame, because what's good was lovely. But no point pretending. Pretending got me into two miserable marriages and I still would like to end my life in a happy, connected one, should the fates allow.

A Viking who prefers head-banging, mean music to Amber is wearing a toy plastic helmet, sheltering not enough brains. Actually, kind of a great reveal, imo. I'm sorry he didn't turn out to be a grownup but hope you don't regret the experiment.

love,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm sorry things haven't worked out Hops but I think you're right when you say you and B run on different currents.  But you can be certain that you absolutely gave it your best shot and, as Skep says, you went about it all in exactly the right way.  And things have ended calmly, respectfully, warmly, even - much better to acknowledge what's what at this stage than, as you say, realise further in (when commitments are deeper) and you can't even stand being in the same room together.  Big hug coming your way.

(((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))) xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, ((((Tupp))).
I really appreciate your kind heart, so much.

I am actually feeling pretty good.
Although that may have something to do with bourbon.

Still, it does not feel tragic.

I miss B. I do recognize there is real love in my heart for his vulnerable-boy side.

But I also feel SUCH relief that I know it was the right decision.

I hope he'll be okay. I truly think it's hardest on him. I was always more independent.

With you Amazons' encouragement, I know I will be okay.

Plus, the irises. And friends.

xxxxxxoooooo

Hops

[Hopalong]

I know the aftereffects are normal. Noticing I feel un-anchored, a little anxious. It was NICE, despite all the tensions, to know that somebody expected/wanted to see me a couple times a week. But the incompatibilities were too big for us.

What I'd really like to do is not revert to my old pattern of regularly terrorizing myself with frightened thoughts about my future. How do I know I won't die easily in my sleep on day and never face the old-age poverty I'm too absorbed by? Likely, it'll be something in between and I'll be fine.

So that's the big fear. And I need to face it, keep working and saving, and meanwhile start enjoying my leisure time again. Plus writing.

On the brighter side, I promptly made a just-coffee date with an online fellow who sounds nice. Well, glass of wine downtown date, actually.

I think I want to see how it is, and how I do, with the first-dates thing again. Rather than retreat.

Looking back on B, I know the concerns about our deep deep obvious differences were there from the get-go, and it not working out wasn't rocket science. (I do feel some sadness about missing the side of him I felt tenderly toward but still know it was the right decision.) And, still glad we tried.

So it's back to the "practice" practice. I know it's healthy. And in spring, when I can take my pooch and work in a walk on my way to a meet, it's less daunting than new-dates felt in the cold.

I think I should keep it light and not have those deadly-serious conversations instantly. But I also think that Judith Sills' wisdom sticks with me. First few dates are critical because for some odd reason, before people know each other and before any bond, they tend to reveal themselves most. And you can get a lot of very valuable insight if you (me) ask your questions lightly and in an unthreatening, casual way. Just keeping the ears tuned.

Lighter, your list of transparent explanations about who you are and what you require backfired on you in the bad one. I am hoping I can find a compromise between being focused on saying what are my own likes and wishes versus must-haves and deal-breakers....and missing his answers to the same. It's like doing two things at once, with ADD distractibility.

What I need to do is listen closely and (this part doesn't come too naturally) ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS. A first date (or second) is the best time to (at this age anyway) get right out on the table whether I'm looking for just a fun companion or a serious relationship that could end in marriage. Early on, first date especially, I can look any geezer mildly in the eye and say, how about you? Do you see yourself marrying again? Usually, on a very early date, they'll tell the truth. Anyone who straightforwardly rules it out, I'll not spend tons of time on.

I do know what I want. A happy, comforting, kind marriage that gives us both company and support for the final chapter. Lots of people find that at ages even older than 68, so there's no reason for me to give up on the idea.

And there we go. I'm pondering leaving this thread alive for any dating or general Heist stuff. It's likely to be a bouncy parade of encounters I'll need y'all's feedback about.

Does that make sense?

love
Hops