Double Jeopardy; A; WTH is the matter with women. Q; What is Men, Alex?

[lighter]

Mud:

Sorry you don't feel supported, so here's my "practical" advice....

IMO, you have a much better chance of reconciling with this woman IF you accept her just as she is, and where she is.  Perhaps with gratitude that she's still in your life, even if it's not what you'd hoped or planned.

IF you can do that, perhaps she'll feel safe enough to re think her position, and try again, but I do think it's her move to make.  In every sense.  To bring up.  To discuss. Everything. 

I'm sorry you're feeling judged, and not heard.  Maybe if you re read...?

Even if you pout, or sweetly "try" to change her NO into a YES.... you aren't honoring her NO, IMO. 

I don't think anyone said you tried to force anything.  You're a very nice person, and I think you're an honorable man with good intentions.  That's not what's up for debate. 

What I'm talking about is accepting what she wants, even if it's contrary to what you want. Supporting it, even.

I don't think it's about how "wounded" she is either, but then I don't know, bc I can't know, and what you asked for was opinions not certainty, and the Amazons answered.

I think we would have done more quiet hand holding, and validating if you hadn't asked, but you did. 

It feels like you keep circling back to points you've been over, at the expense of considering other views, IMO. 
That's OK. 

Even if you're right on target, we still have valid points, and they matter.  Just as your views, and points matter: )

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Mud, sometimes when a relationship ends there just aren't any conclusive "answers". There's just hurt. And that elusive "hope" that given time, another try at it becomes available. Sometimes, that hope is the cruelest part of all. It's magical thinking; of a sort that happens in the grieving process.

My D has been breakingup for 4-5 years, from a 9 year relationship. The particulars don't really matter and wouldn't make sense in context of your situation. But what it all comes down to, is that eventually it got to the point of "I'm not doing this anymore"... and "I CAN'T do this anymore". The reason/issue in contention wasn't anymore major than in your situation. So I've been "treated" to being the sounding board for how my D has processed this over the YEARS, to the point that my patience is tried every single time she treds over that same puzzle-path, trying to find a different answer than what she already has come up with - and is having a hard time accepting. And I KNOW how it hurts her. She's cried like a little girl grieving on my shoulder enough times... asking if she's a bad person because she can't see things the same way he does. Because it doesn't make sense in HER value system.

She is trying to solve the puzzle with rational mind, not emotional thinking... though we've made progress on it's "language and vocabulary". And there is no logical explanation, within context of the relationship OR the individuals, about why this one minor issue in contention became the B&W, life/death negotiating point. Except personal belief values... and POSSIBLY (I couldn't know this if I tried)... a subconscious conflict in D's partner that interferes with his otherwise empathetic, understanding and rational processes.

Being outside the relationship, I think it's likely those belief values could be "informed" by a very specific, past-history, subscious emotional conflict, since the same issue was the reason for the break-up of his previous relationship. (This doesn't apply to you at all; completely different circumstances.) Where I'm going with this... is that one party doesn't KNOW consciously the reason "I can't do this anymore" and doesn't even face the possibility that maybe it's MORE or something different, than the reason they tell themselves it is.

And that leaves the other party hurt, confused, wondering what on earth they did wrong... and why such a little thing became the "sorry, gotta go now, I don't want to see anymore, I'm too hurt, angry or whatever" issue.

So, I can understand you're grieving this ending. It's abrupt and doesn't make sense to YOU. Any way you try to look at it. And the fact is, IMO... there isn't any solace, or acceptance, or living with it comfortably with an option to "try again" later... that is going to make the grieving any less onerous. All you CAN do, when you're ready to do it, is just let    it     go. And put one foot in front of the other, and live your life. You're not closing a door on her, or the possibility of a relationship - but you will be caring for yourself, best way you know how and giving her the chance to do the same.

I find it very difficult to justify putting one's life in limbo, hanging out & hoping that you get another chance at a relationship. I don't believe you're doing that, so this is just a caution. We all want what we want - and WHO we want. Until we move on and let the past go.

I'm very sorry your dream-girl took a flyer on you. We can analyze it 6 ways to Sunday and never come up with a different explanation than what she gave you. So hugs, mud. It's never easy but you'll get past it.

[Hopalong]

I'm sorry, Mud.
It's hard to be direct and honest with a friend and use the right tone and vocabulary that in some way could possibly be helpful. Your anguish cut through so I wanted to be extremely clear. Just please, forgive the "political" vocabulary. It does get in your way so I should have tried to be more creative and use imagery instead. That was lazy of me. If you could, please try to understand that empathy and insight and revelation and epiphany and new awareness are the point. Words like entitlement, or feminism, are only shorthand for what real people have learned as real hearts broke and real hopes rose or died.

I am so, so sorry, my friend, for the pain you're going through.

In practical, what-to-do terms, I think Lighter gave you the most important advice. In terms of any fantasy future do-over, your most difficult and most important choice at the heart of it all is:

Let her choose to bring it up in future if she wants to. Don't ask. Nor even hint.

She might; she might not. But utterly letting go of the idea of instigating a new or re-relationship is the best thing you can do for both of you, imh-ho.

love,
Hops

[lighter]

Mud:

The pouting over her schedule WAS your attempt to change her NO into a YES.

After she broke it off, your trying to change her mind about that was you trying to change her NO into a YES, once again.

If you try to speak to her about considering this relationship again, without her bringing it up first, then it will be about you trying to change her NO into a YES.  No one's questioning your motives.  We're staying away from motives.  We're focusing on one things here.

I can't imagine someone as passionate and committed as you not interjecting your opinions when she's expressing her opinions, esp when you've gotten used to discussing future plans, and collaborating. 

You want what you want, and you want her to want this wonderful future also.  She DID want it.

 The thing is, even if what you want is the very best thing for her, and you both, she has to make up her own mind about that, and feel respected for her views, IME.   

No one is trying to convince you that this relationship/woman/your way of relating with her is WRONG.  It can be mostly right, and have fatal flaws, IME.

If two things were true in this relationship, it was close to perfect, and there was a fatal flaw, then can you consider what that flaw was?  Could it have been a missing or weak building block you weren't aware of, or didn't want to see?  She stopped building the dream for a reason.  Was the base unsteady?

What if that's true?

Honestly, the idea of falling in love with a man who has the time, and ability to support a woman in her life, job, and emotional world is an amazing thing to contemplate.  She wanted that.  You offered it.  You both agreed it was an amazing life you looked forward to.

IF your pouting over her schedule was what tipped the scales here.... IF that's true, and you believe it is, then maybe your acceptance.... your ability to honor her NOs is an issue here.  

This isn't a man / woman thing, btw.  It's a people thing, and everyone should be able to honor what others say, even if they don't agree, or like it, IME. We can be dissapointed, and still honor someone's NO, IME.  We're sharing our experience, from our POV, and I'm thinking that's an amazing POV when you're trying to understand your female friend's POV. 

You don't feel heard, and I'm sorry about that.  Truly, I am.

I can honestly say I'm feeling a bit voiceless myself on this thread, and so I repeat what I've been saying,  trying to feel heard.  It's not important in my life that you hear me.  I'm afraid it's important in yours, and I do care.

If I'm right, it doesn't make you wrong.  As I said, two things can be true at the same time.  I'm sure you had an amazing connection, worth saving, with this woman.  It's my hope that comes to pass if at all possible. 

Nuff said. I release all expectation, ((Mud.)) 

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

Well I guess all I had to do was complain and you guys would start talking sense. 
Thank you for all four of those replies. That's kind of what I was looking for from the start.
I of course hope she will approach me some time in the future. She is the one who initiated the relationship the first time so it's not impossible. I don't know how likely it is but it would sure make my life easier. Had I kept my big mouth shut after we broke up it would be a lot easier for her to do so.

However, I guess I don't understand how just talking to her about it amounts to trying to turn her NO to YES.
Before we went out and while we were breaking up she mentioned how she didn't even want to try a relationship while fire season was on, which ends mid November. And she twice told me, during the breakup, she thought the idea of trying again later to start over and do it the right way was a good idea.
 So I'm not clear on how just asking if her NO has possibly turned to YES amounts to some disrespect or attempt to change her mind. I'm just trying to check if it has changed. Seems to me it might change but she be unwilling to let me know because of the awkwardness of the situation. I know I'm reluctant to ask her because of that. What if we're both willing to try again but we're both too chicken to be the first one to let the other know?

mud

[Hopalong]

I'm not clear on how just asking if her NO has possibly turned to YES amounts to some disrespect or attempt to change her mind. I'm just trying to check...

Well, this is a test. Can you discipline yourself and respect her enough to stop fantasizing about (pre-analysing) what she is thinking? Can you wait for HER reality, whatever it is? Can you back away from even the SMALLEST attempt to manage her decision?

Can you center and calm yourself, be at peace with no strategems or maneuvers and simply release the outcome? Can you stop trying, even in ("I'm just....") ways? "I'm just..." is minimizing, rationalizing, etc. It's a flag for not fully owning something.

Can you feel such profound respect for her right to choose or not choose or simply let things float unanswered that you stop pushing, even with a pinkie finger, for resolution?

Can you give the power completely to her for now? (By "now" I mean the next five years...). Can you let go of the desire to know? Can you trust not knowing is okay?

That's respecting her No, with no wiggle room.

Doesn't have to mean sweating bullets off your earlobes, nor taking to drink, nor gutting it out in misery. The goal is...to actually perceive the stand-alone wisdom of it. Not wisdom-as-this'll-make-it-work. But wisdom as in this is generous and spacious, and trusting that the outcome will be what it should be (whether you are pleased with it or not)...and having faith.

It'll be difficult. But you can do it. I bet if you do, you'll feel different.

love,
Hops

[lighter]

I think we were always talking sense, Mud.

Maybe we're using more words, and expanding our points, but we were making sense.

I wish all that writing made clear to you how important it is to respect an answer you don't like from someone you care very much about. 

It makes people feel safe.  That's so important to people who've had to walk on eggshells, or pretend to keep the peace that can't be kept in their lives. 

I'm not sure you understand that yet.

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

I have to sit on my hands and lower my eyes in her presence? For five years?
You do realize I was her boyfriend not her indentured servant, right?
I guess I don't get the "I am woman hear me roar" and the "I am woman, a delicate flower who will run away screaming if you look at me wrong " dichotomy [and yes that was a mixed metaphor.]


 More seriously, I do understand that any pushing will only push her further away. I suppose this will enrage the Amazons but my therapist dude equated it to being the horse whisperer with a spooked horse out in the sun of the desert. You stand in a spot where you go on about your life where she can see you but you never close the distance. Instead you stand calmly in the shade and wait for her to.
  I have a friend, a woman, who suggested I might see if she wanted me to do all the things on her house and yard we talked about doing when we were going to be man and wife, but as client and dude. Seems kind of phony to me but it would be a professional relationship only. If anything more ever grew from it that's fine, but in the meantime I'm helping her and she's helping me in a nice, safe, uninvolved and nonthreatening way for either of us.
Smacks of a game to me and I don't like games but I find many of the things that strike me as games a lot of people, woman especially, think are just being smart. Any thoughts? I can't lie and say I wouldn't want it it be more than just professional but I would love doing it even if it never was anything more. We had some really great ideas and she really needs stuff done around what is a really neat log home but there is nothing else there. No landscaping, no yard, dirt driveway, laundry room in the basement and the only access through an outside staircase. A house obviously designed by a man.

mud

[mudpuppy]

I wish all that writing made clear to you how important it is to respect an answer you don't like from someone you care very much about.

I guess I'm not sure how it is not possible to respect an answer while at the same time hoping it changes in the future. Or even asking after five or six months if there is any chance it might have.
I assume it is probably true but because I'm not built that way I don't guess I'll ever fully understand it.

But as to the idea I have to accept whatever she decides as the right answer and the way it should be that seems kind of ridiculous. People make stupid decisions all the time, including about things that would make their lives wonderful, and "the way things should be" happens in my experience pretty seldom. Doesn't mean we don't have to accept other people's decisions, stupid or not. Of course we do, but pretending whatever someone else or we decide is the way it should be, invests us with a wisdom none of us possess. 

[Twoapenny]

I have to sit on my hands and lower my eyes in her presence? For five years?
You do realize I was her boyfriend not her indentured servant, right?
I guess I don't get the "I am woman hear me roar" and the "I am woman, a delicate flower who will run away screaming if you look at me wrong " dichotomy [and yes that was a mixed metaphor.]


 More seriously, I do understand that any pushing will only push her further away. I suppose this will enrage the Amazons but my therapist dude equated it to being the horse whisperer with a spooked horse out in the sun of the desert. You stand in a spot where you go on about your life where she can see you but you never close the distance. Instead you stand calmly in the shade and wait for her to.
  I have a friend, a woman, who suggested I might see if she wanted me to do all the things on her house and yard we talked about doing when we were going to be man and wife, but as client and dude. Seems kind of phony to me but it would be a professional relationship only. If anything more ever grew from it that's fine, but in the meantime I'm helping her and she's helping me in a nice, safe, uninvolved and nonthreatening way for either of us.
Smacks of a game to me and I don't like games but I find many of the things that strike me as games a lot of people, woman especially, think are just being smart. Any thoughts? I can't lie and say I wouldn't want it it be more than just professional but I would love doing it even if it never was anything more. We had some really great ideas and she really needs stuff done around what is a really neat log home but there is nothing else there. No landscaping, no yard, dirt driveway, laundry room in the basement and the only access through an outside staircase. A house obviously designed by a man.

mud

Hi Mud,

I will start with the caveat that I am not good at relationships and tend to avoid intimacy (all sorts of reasons) but for what it's worth, I am not a fan of games and have no idea why other people spend so much time on them, but we are all different   I think just be yourself.  She knows you are interested, she knows you're happy to wait, she knows you had a good time before the blip and presumably she knows that all relationships will have blips along the way.  I don't think there's much more you could have done to be clearer about your interest and the fact that you still want a relationship.  Her reaction, to me, does seem over the top, but if she has lots of unresolved stuff then she wouldn't have been reacting to just that blip, her response will have been to every other blip that's happened before (I say that as someone who is currently experiencing twenty years worth of reactions to something as simple as a postmark on an envelope).  Working through stuff takes time, energy, patience.  Some people do it better alone, some with someone by their side.

I don't know you as well as the other posters on here but you have always come across as an honest man with a warm heart and a lot of compassion.  I think you said in an earlier post that you've set a sort of mark around October/November time to call time on the current situation if nothing's changed by then (apologies if I've got that wrong, my head is a bit all over the place at the moment so I might be confusing this thread with another).  But if I were in your shoes I'd be inclined to just get on with whatever it is I do and let what happens, happen.  I don't know if you're in a situation where your paths cross with this lady day to day but if you do a friendly hello will let her know the door is still open.  If you don't see each other naturally then maybe a call or text a bit further down the line will again indicate the door is still open.  I think you'll know in your heart how long you feel is long enough to wait.  It might end up being one of those situations where you get together ten years down the line, who knows?  But I think you've been honest about the way you feel and I don't think there's much more that anyone can do.  I hope it turns out well for you, whichever way things go x

[sKePTiKal]

IMO, mud... your friend's suggestion is bit creepy. Like you're willing to abase yourself at the foot of this woman's pedestal for the benefit of being in her presence. (It's too easy to be kicked in that position.) It's clingy and needy to TRY something like that... or it can be.

But, not for everyone. Maybe you can honestly pull it off, keeping professional boundaries in place and never ever bringing up the "sore topic". Question is: is she up to that? Would you be opening yourself up for even more pain? I dunno.

I guess you need to ask yourself if you're doing yourself any favors trying to find a way to just pass the time, or stay within her attention radius, until you feel you've gotten the final decision from her... or...

if you'll just dust yourself off, go about living YOUR life... and if she rings the doorbell some day, saying she wants to try again, at that time you'll reassess how you feel and what you think about it.

[mudpuppy]

Thank you Twoapenny. I'm happy to hear at least one other person thinks like I do. You should probably be worried. 

I think you said in an earlier post that you've set a sort of mark around October/November time to call time on the current situation if nothing's changed by then

I said I'd wait until Nov/Dec to see if she had changed her mind at all. That doesn't mean I would give up on her changing her mind later. I've never intended to try and change her mind for her; that's what got me in so much trouble after we broke up. While I already know how foolish that was, Hops and lighter have helped me understand what that looked like from her perspective.
 My hope is that someday she will be able to remember the 99.9% of our relationship that was pretty much perfect and in looking at that be able to overlook the .1% that caused the problem.

It might end up being one of those situations where you get together ten years down the line, who knows?

Well, she did say it took her two years of looking my way just to feel like she was ready to let me know she was interested so who knows.

IMO, mud... your friend's suggestion is bit creepy.

sKePTiKal; that was kind of my reaction too at first.
But on the other hand what she wants to do would be pretty fun to make, even if we'd never been involved, but of course, we were, which is what makes it kind of creepy I guess. I've done a lot of work for this friend so I just think she saw it as an innocent, rather than calculating way to reconnect without the pressure of anything more than just doing a job for her.


I think just be myself is the best advice I've gotten. Just being myself is what attracted her to me and both of us being free of our baggage and once again able to be ourselves is what made our relationship so great. My pouty party is not me and almost never happens and now that I know where her vulnerability is I would never ever touch that nerve again.
I'll be the guy in the shade being myself and if she wants to amble over for some oats eventually I'll be happy to share some and stroke her mane. If not, oh well.

mud

[lighter]

Mud:


You feel she made a mistake.  You feel she should change her mind, and do what you feel is best for her.  She knows this.  Pretending you value her opinion, as much as you value your own, would be playing a game, IMO.

Respecting her opinions, as much as you respect your own, would be the trick, IMO. 

What if she does know what's best for her in these moments? 

What if she made the right choice for herself? 

Can you give her the benefit of the doubt, and just trust she's done the right thing? 

I don't think working with her, under the circumstances, would lead to anything good.  It's difficult to keep  true feelings under one's hat, and your true feelings are that she should do what you need her to do, bc it's better for her than what she's chosen for herself. 

A problem, IMO.

Lighter

[mudpuppy]

You feel she made a mistake.

 I think I stated above that I don't think either of us were ready for a relationship at the time and so a breakup was not only inevitable but that good things would come from it despite  or maybe because of the pain. Out of pain comes growth and so I hope that our relationship rather than being ill conceived was just ill timed. In an ideal world we would have taken a break, talked things over and tried to work things out while we were healing rather than breaking things off completely and hurting each other.
So I think she did the right thing at the time for the wrong reasons and those wrong reasons were the reaction of her baggage to the baggage of my own that I brought to the relationship.
But I also believe in reconciliation and second chances and the power of love. I believe two people of good will and faith can look back at what happened and learn from it and try again. If she chooses not to that's her decision, but I'm not going to apologize for having hope that love is stronger than fear or our pasts.

Pretending you value her opinion, as much as you value your own, would be playing a game, IMO.

I have never quite understood this concept. If I think someone else is wrong, of course I don't value their opinion as much as mine...because they're wrong. If I didn't think they were wrong, then I would agree with them and disagree with myself which is nonsensical per se. The question is not valuing the opinion of someone I consider wrong as much as I value my own. The question is do I value her right to hold a wrong opinion, and that I do, hence I am not bothering her and merely hoping and praying her opinion changes.

What if she made the right choice for herself?
Can you give her the benefit of the doubt, and just trust she's done the right thing?

Doubtful. The problem is she isolates herself and goes to her safe place when faced with pressure of any kind. That's ok once in awhile but it seems to be how she is living now and in my opinion that is not a healthy way to live. Were it healthy she wouldn't have to make up reasons for why she is isolating herself from me. She herself recognizes this but still does it. her safe place is a place where she doesn't have to work out her issues but instead protects them and keeps them from ever being healed. So if I care about her and believe she is doing something that is not in her long term best interest then I'm not sure why I would trust she's done the right thing. Perfectly wonderful people do the wrong thing all the time. If I truly care then I'm not doing her any favors by pretending I think she's doing the right thing. I don't think she is. The question is what can or will I do about it. Nothing directly and so I pray and hope.

I don't think working with her, under the circumstances, would lead to anything good.

You may be right about that and I am leery of the idea. It might work if I no longer had feelings for her, but I do so...


 

It's difficult to keep  true feelings under one's hat, and your true feelings are that she should do what you need her to do, bc it's better for her than what she's chosen for herself.

I believe it is absolutely better for her than what she has chosen. We were both free and ecstatically happy until our pasts and our wounds made us less so. I'm certain I feel much worse than she does because her wounds wanted her more than anything to remove herself from the possibility of being hurt again and so she felt relief and safety in leaving. But that is a temporary and unhealthy band aid to a pain that needs surgery instead. She ran away from a problem instead of facing it when she finally had someone in her life who would have loved to support her while she did so. Do I feel facing and resolving a problem so one can live the way one wants is better than being controlled by it and having it disrupt relationships and lead to an isolated life? Yes I do and I'm kinda doubtful anyone will convince me otherwise.

mud

[lighter]

Mud:

People work on their problems when they're ready, IME. 

Maybe she's just not ready.

Lighter