Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp.

Nope, the poet friend he dissed was an older long-time mentor in another city, where I went to school (under- and grad-). This poet he's very fond of (largely because her parents were famous academics he revered) but he hasn't seen her poems. And I'd never show him any....

Things do feel a lot less compulsive with M. I'm relieved. And he still might drop by some ice cream. (He asked if I needed anything to tell him, repeating it five times, so I decided I "need" Cherries Garcia. Haven't had ice cream in forever.)

Yes, in two weeks I will be comfortable having others in my house (only those I know have been fully vaccinated including two doses for some brands and then have waited two weeks afterward). But that's still HUGE! Otherwise, nothing changes yet as to public behavior, masking, distancing, etc. One thing is that I'll revert to those simpler paper masks in public. The N95s nearly suffocated me and trigger SOB.

The timing with spring is really nice, though any time is good to feel a first step.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I'm picturing you in the sunshine, Hops. Smiling.  Feeling free.  Happy.

Congrats I'm in your second jab; )

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Lighter.
We only stood in line for two hours this time.

I think I told the saga of two weeks ago (Jab One). People shared a link for appts they weren't supposed to share, so 1700 people showed up for 400 slots. Most of them did have appts. They turned back, apologizing, those under 65 and the rest of us waited 4 hours in line.

Yesterday was much better, the National Guard really helped and the actual vaccinating was done extremely efficiently. But they'd re-booked all the OVER-numbers that appeared two weeks ago for yesterday, so had the same crowd!

Fortunately my appt was earlier in the day this time, so not so bad at all. Gorgeous weather and people getting to know each other in line was fun.

Hope you can get jabbed soon, Lighter. Hope EVERYONE soon will. It's coming.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Everyone needs ice cream, Hopsie!  It's a very basic human essential; we get ours from a local dairy and oh my days, it's delicious.  I have to limit myself to a small scoop as a treat every now and again because I could easily eat a tub of the stuff lol.  And then the empty tub becomes a bird bath!  Perfect all round.  I'm glad the tie to M has loosened a bit and imagine how lovely it will be to have friends round again!  Astonishing.  I'm glad the second jab went well.  We have been so lucky with the way ours have been orgnanised - I took son yesterday for his, we got there bang on time, straight in, jab done, he got a well done sticker!  I told the nurse I hadn't been given a sticker when I had mine done and she laughed and said neither had she and she wanted one, too    So efficiently done, how lucky are we all that science can do this and make it possible for us to get on with our lives?  I'm looking forward to reading about your first soiree!  I hope it's an ice cream party xx

[lighter]

Lifting fork full of rice and black beans...
To jabs, ice cream and a return to soires.

Yes.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Relationship to self: Managed to avoid the ice cream and I'm glad about that. Hired garden helper and that feels good. This is about health and joy and doesn't require hand-holding. Back help sometimes, but not psychological "oh Hops, venture out."

Rship to M: Didn't take his call last night (would like to bust up the ritual because it's like "tucking him in" and ensures he's the last thing on my mind before sleep). Happy to pick up when I genuinely feel like a chat but not as a ritualized thing. Wound down by reminding myself I've always wanted to learn the Moonlight Sonata and I have a piano in the next room. Had it going through my head a while...nice.

Rship to friend: Had a really good talk with T yesterday about friendships, much on my mind since poet is moving in a few months. We got into the whole familiar issue of how much I adapt myself to other personalities. My goal is to become a lot more discerning when I FIRST meet people, so I recognize early on whether they're a personality type that is likely to trigger my childhood placate-an-N familiar but perversely comfortable behavior, or my adult observe/discern/decide (sounds like Lighter) behavior that would help me be intentional about who's good for me.

One significant thing is that I've lately come to recognize that several of my closest friends are people who do some of what Tupp's put up with. They launch into talking about themselves and I often struggle to feel heard or have a turn. And there are nuances. My longest-term local friend does this but is also loyal and loving and would and has come to help me in time of need. I've gradually accepted that our relationship is kind of 80-20 in terms of who gets the listening, but I also value her and understand why she does this (trauma), and most of the time, don't mind. Another is just a loyal block of a solid person who nonetheless dominates conversations and exits abruptly--no social graces to speak of but she gave me a car to use for six months when she didn't even know who I was (church--heard I needed it and just handed over the keys). And M is M.

Anyhoo, a more recent friend (6 years) I've probably mentioned here is also a professor and consults with the World Bank. Very high-powered confident bright and absolutely driven woman--successful, compulsive about work, type A+++. Met her at church when she volunteered to co-chair my committee as she was looking for new friends. We hit it off and she's been very intentional about keeping in touch, etc. She is socially different in that she calls and kind of recites what she's been doing in a very literal way. But she also has always made very specific statements about how important our friendship is to her, etc etc. I have liked having a loyal friend who calls regularly but also been drained by my own reaction of talking when she pushes "Play" -- almost feeling like entertainment for her rather than meaningful dialogue. Anyway, no harm in everything not being interesting, but there's been a twist that kind of opened my eyes.

She has a very controlling personality covered with a layer of geniality (in ways similar to M). She is also vulnerable at times and appealed to me when one of her adult daughters was estranged as she knew I understood what she was going through. But she has other areas she's protective about to the point of paranoia. She once was very scared that having met M (who immediately said, oh I know so and so in your dept do you know so and so?) I would tell him something about her possible early retirement plans. She told me not to mention anything about that to him and so I didn't, simple as that.

But there's a kind of something going on that I don't understand, and my T helped me figure out that it's fairly toxic. Friend is normally in touch almost every day via text or phone or email, so when she suddenly didn't respond (I'd sent various messages) for days I felt concerned and emailed her hubby, who sent me a vague reply that she was "going through shit" and might not reply for a while, I was confused and also a bit anxious (she'd gotten angry at me for having another woman over at the same time and not taking care of her feelings because that woman was her enemy, y'all might remember that one). At that time she'd stopped speaking to me and when she went silent this time I wondered if that was happening again.

Anyway, loooong story a little shorter, she finally called and it turned out she'd been in the hospital, almost died, and is now home recovering. But she isn't saying what actually happened and has made it that I'm "such an open personality" (iow, a gossip) that she'd prefer "not to share the details." I responded that her privacy belongs to her and I understand that. But inside, I began to feel weird. She's always been so intense about making statements about how valuable our friendship is and how I'm her closest friend here...and it just doesn't seem like a real closeness to me. When we finally talked I realized I wanted to be intentional in what I said and told her that I completely respect her right to draw a boundary but I also am realizing we're not quite as close as I'd thought.

The T followed the whole thing and told me in a way she hears chimes of control and something toxic in my friend's behavior or her way of "managing" our relationahip and I realized she was right. Once again I had gone into the orbit of a very dominant, controlling, brilliant personality. Friend loved sharing with me because I am very compassionate. But she also projects a lot (like M) and when something's not right within her she tends to blame or last out. And I'm handy.

T thinks that I have a reflex to be compassionate and when someone shares vulnerability I want to heal them, which is kind, but I sometimes (IRL) set up a pattern where that's all I'm there for. And dominant personalities are sometimes mostly natural and no harm done--how else would we have leaders, surgeons, etc?--and sometimes they can harm. Intentionally or not. I'm just way too experienced in accomodating very strong personalities that like to control, if I'm not careful.

So I have a more wary attitude toward this friend now. I'll still be supportive but not play along so unconsciously with that pattern. And I do keep confidences. Sheesh.

Anyhow, that's it from Relationship Land. Not all bad at all, I just feel like my learning is turbo-charged these days. And being intentional about relationships is something I really am focusing on more.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hmmmm... you're tapping into some things I've been thinking about Hops, re: the recovering friend.

The "need to be needed" is a component of the dynamic of co-dependance, many times. But lately, I've been wondering about the person on the other side of that relationship. A LOT, in fact.

I don't know anymore of the particulars about this friendship than you've relayed here, so the only thing that occurred to me reading your description, is that our definitions of things like privacy, vulnerability, compassion -- are all at different places on the yardstick that "imaginarily" we can use to measure the relative amount of those kinds of intangible things. I do know that quite often - the actual yardstick measurement for most people - varies according to day, situation, mood, and even how well a person slept the night before.

We're all moving through time & space with a zillion variables that can (momentarily) impact what we can & choose to do. But then, there is also the pattern or trend of a specific trait/experience that exists over a longer period of time. I'm beginning to dislike the label of "toxic" in the context of relationships because there's this built in assumption that the other person is intentionally doing a "thing" that puts one on the back foot -- and therefore are helpless to change, or redraw a boundary, or to ask for what one WANTS or needs. It's only toxic if the aspect of experience never changes, is an expectation of the relationship that can't be negotiated, or one is so dependent upon the transactional aspect of the interaction... that it would be a real emotional loss to just stop engaging in it. (Needing to be needed falls into this dynamic.)

But that's completely ignoring the other person's position on that imaginary yardstick for different things - and that they are not identical - and therefore their definitions aren't either - to their relationship partner. It would presumptious to assume people all have the same definitions about things like this. (And I know you don't; just thinking out loud about stuff that's been rattling in my brain lately.)

Anyway, about the other person in a co-dependence situation... I've been wondering what they get out this (and understand there are as many answers as people; whether it's something they perceive themselves as needing - to provide for something they can't or don't know how, to do for themselves. Whether they are self-aware enough to even realize their partner is engaging in co-dependence and that's the nature of the relationship. Seldom (I think?) do both partners have that same need to be needed behavior.

INTERdependent relationships are when there isn't a consistent role, or pattern that exists in interaction - when people take turns with the roles, and the things provided are different, yet still serving a practical or emotional purpose for the other - or so I think today. This is all theoretical, work in progress crap in my head that's come up from thinking about, feeling, sorting several different relationships.

It's probably way more than you want to entertain, too. Sorry about that.... it's been a little quiet around here lately and I'm full of myself, I guess.

PS - when I type stream of consciousness; trying to say what I mean so other people can follow me - I seriously need an editor!!  LOL. The missing conjunctions... aren't insignificant. Maybe I haven't decided which one really does go there?  Yes, I'm having a real weird-o day today... 

[Hopalong]

This makes a lot of sense to me, Amber:

INTERdependent relationships are when there isn't a consistent role, or pattern that exists in interaction - when people take turns with the roles, and the things provided are different, yet still serving a practical or emotional purpose for the other

And I've been most definitely "Co-." In many situations.

One thing I'd add is that in my experience, I do not believe that those who've "taken advantage" (deliberate quotes) of my interest in showing compassion, helping heal, intense listening, etc. -- are doing so intentionally. Not at all. I think it's as unconscious a "fit" for them as mine is for Narcissists.

I think what's happening for me in the midst of having lightbulbs go off about my patterns in relationships is paralleled by not being angry, feeling victimized or blaming. I really do believe that most of us (unless we're sociopaths) are doing the best we can with what we've got, and that learning is slow and lifelong, but insight or inspiration can come at any point.

I'm just grateful to feel that more is clear to me now. If I blamed anyone else for my suffering I'd have to also blame myself--since vulnerable or not, ultimately we own who we are (since nobody else can). Apart from intentional abuse or cruelty, then, I'm steering clear of blame as much as I can, going forward.

And continuing to try to come down on the side of love, compassion and forgiveness. Sounds treacly but think of it as anti-anxiety. It helps the letting go or releasing the outcome.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Reading along here.  So many familiar things. 

And, Hops.....focusing on new connections proactively to determine what, exactly, is there.....
Assess
accept
Act

Yes.

People come into our lives with their baggage, needs and projections.  We aren't obligated to BE or GIVE what we can't.

Allowing them to try, while avoiding the truth, is a recipe for awkward patterns.

We choose where to file people in our hearts and lives.  Some people don't have any place.

I struggle with handling people, esp type As and vulnerable people asking to be healed.

Eventually they become bossy and controlling....like the recovering cowboy neughbor.  That happened with a male friend....he phoned today, after rarely ever calling since getting a gf.

THAT friend complained I was very " curt" when we first began interacting.  I suppose I was, bc I was fighting the custody case...no time for anything else.

Eventually he was calling me every day for advice and to vent, seek compassion while taking zero advice for years. He NEVER asked about me or listened if I tried to take a turn.  Ever.

It was like a banned poster here once.  Never changing, but super hooked into sharing every detail of her repeated upset and trauma, which I get....been there, myself in ways.  We all have.

My point is, I'm drawn into relationships like that too.  It's a pattern.  Eventually treated badly, for what I perceived as my being nice and extending kindness feeeeels so very wrong. Unfair.  Unjust.  Expectations are everything, imo.  Unspoken agreements create huge discord, IME.

And that treatment comes in many forms....The poster on the board mounted a false campaign against me here, postured as victim and dragged newbie posters into board hostilities ( which was THE most upsetting aspect!)....and it was a real learning experience.  I was, unfortunately, limited in my ability to SEE everything going on....my part in the situation most especially.  I had a part.

CB eventually discussed it on the board and was heard and understood, where I had failed.

So interesting, but also confusing.  A repeating theme is my inability to discuss difficult/ toxic/pdpeople....or are they just people locked in trauma and pain and problematic coping strategies
we
allow
in?
 We involve ourselves with?  Project onto them what we want to see?

And there's the rub.  We play a part in who we let in, except in FOO situations, of course.

To discern proactively, accept our opinions and act in our best interest, despite awkwardness/discomfort/retaliation, etc. isn't natural.  There are blind spots and what feels like a block.....but is it our comfort in dealing with these kinds of relationships?

What about us is, if anything, could seem off kilter for people capable of interdependent relationships?  (Thanks for that term Amber.)

Just say'in.  There are patterns.  I'm repeating things said on this thread, bc I want to understand and make changes too.


Lighter

[Hopalong]

You're right, CB, she could have all kinds of personal reasons to prefer not to discuss her illness, even with someone she's labeled her closest friend. I get that and made it clear to her that I completely respect her right to guard her own disclosures. (I used to discuss a few personal things with her that I later learned she'd shared in uncomfortable detail with her husband and laughed about, because she'd shared that thinking it was funny, so I need boundaries too.)

I think what bothered me was her implication that it wasn't her issue, but because I am "too open" -- a whiff of judging me or, as my T said, basically implying I'm a gossip. Which isn't accurate or fair.

The bottom line is that I will respect her boundaries without question, while at the same time not blame myself for the inner voice that's saying, something about her/this is problematic (for me). So, I'm okay with it now. Just have adjusted my distance and decided that I do not want to be manipulated or guilted, which has in the past been her M.O. when she's feeling vulnerable.

Some folks react to vulnerability by closing down, others lay it on others and blame them...but ultimately I think it's just that how we react to pain or fear is extremely individual. Takes a while to learn the contours of another personality -- and in my case, especially with those who are highly executive and cerebral, less open.

I understand she's expressing her own inner stuff. I just have realized that I feel fairly wary about her, and feeling dominated has been significant. Don't need that. I'll continue to care and be supportive. Just more carefully.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

I don't know for sure, Lighter, what I'm unconsciously doing. But I do have faith that with this perceptive T, I'm gradually finding out.

Short of labels (PD, codependent), off the top of my head what comes are just some honest adjectives: I'm quite lonely so attention from a new friend who kind of "claims" me in a dominating way feels comforting. Especially a new female friend. (I've yearned my whole life for a kind sister.) So my discernment is often pretty late to the party.

What's new for me is realizing I can do better, recognize stuff in myself or others earlier that might lead to unhealthy attachments. I'm not sure, but feel as though I'm entering a stage of life where I might do better at that.

Wounded people can attract wounded people. I don't mind that because I think they also can heal each other.

I'm not perfectly healthy or balanced so neither are all the people in my life. I'm okay with that too. In some ways, people who wear some wounds feel safer to me than those who appear almost flawless or aggressively "normal." There's the poet thing too -- outliers by nature.

Insanity is a sane response to living in an insane culture, is an exaggerated thing I've heard before, that always made sense to me.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

HUH... what CB said - about having sisters in our FOO background might be some sort of key here, to unlocking a deeper bit of buried treasure. (Running off to ponder, research & play with another new idea/concept....)



My friend Deb - has been exceptionally busy taking care of her ailing mom. I've given her space this last year; not making demands on her time - but just set up a lunch date for next week. Her schedule has to be brutal between full time care of her mom (she has LPN training; and has recently added hospice help) and her full time job. Due to Covid, her office has been halved and people work alternating weeks - that's been helpful to her at this time.

Hol's friend M, who lost her partner last year (Hol's boss) - has been rejecting a lot of Hol's invitations, requests to chat, etc. Hol is giving her space... and starting to have difficulty with it...but I'm starting to question if that compassionate instinct is the opposite of M wants/needs.... I'll run that past Hol. Perception can get in the way of understanding, sometimes. M is spending lots of time with others in that same group of friends.

It's my longstanding friend (50+ yrs now!) V, that was very much like my sister back in school. We're both strong personalities - and have kinda lived our lives with the other as a mirroring friend. And very distant now, too. For a long time. We don't talk often to each other. But when we DO... we chatter on just like we're still that close. She called once when B was here. LOL. Odd synchronicity... but we still babbled for an hour. It works for us.

In both of my friendships, I don't ask for much; often. But, both of them were there for me in a big way when Mike died, without a lot of prompting. And vice versa, when they needed. We can, at times, operate on the intimate level. (and that might be part of what Hol is missing right now, too). My friendships with guys are a whole different animal. I've had guy friends - no romance component at all - since grade school.

Maybe that's the key to these friendships, just finding what works well enough for both of you? And maybe that doesn't get agreed on until a certain level of intimacy/vulnerability exists and has been tested & trusted? I'm probably the least experienced in this area of our little group here. So I'm just brainstorming from what I think I understand.

[Twoapenny]

You are going through accelerated learning, Hops!  Wow, that is so good to read.  And it doesn't sound (from what you have written) that the revelations are feeling terribly painful?  It sounds as if the learning isn't tearing huge holes in your heart, which is a good thing.  We all know what it can feel like to suddenly realise a painful truth and how bad that can be.  I'm so pleased for you, and hope that the silly comment your friend made about you gossiping (I can't imagine anyone less likely to gossip, to be honest) isn't taking up space in your head.

A couple of things struck me as I was reading through the posts.  One was what Skep just mentioned, about friendships needing to be whatever it is you need them to be, and the true nature of them not really being known until some tough patches have been negotiated (I'm paraphrasing, but towards the end of Skep's last post).  I do think that's very true.  I've had some wonderful friends over the years who vanished as soon as things got tough for me.  They just couldn't cope, but if the situation with my son hadn't developed I'm quite sure I'd still be very good friends with them now.  I think sometimes you don't really know how people will be until a tough situation comes along, whether it's on their side or yours.

The other thing I've noticed in myself, and I wondered whether it has any truth in it for you as well, is that I don't really feel it's okay for me to not like someone or want to hang out with them if they're being nice to me, especially if they offer to do things for me.  I kind of feel (and I know it's silly) that I only have the right to not want to spend time with someone if they've done something awful.  I feel like I need to justify it to myself.  I've noticed it because someone I've not heard from in ages turned up one day last week and I pretended to be out, and now I'm putting off phoning her (she put a note through the door).  We used to be friends but I just don't feel it any more and I don't feel like I want to put any time in to the situation with her.  Yet I feel I ought to, because she came round and put a note through the door.  So I've been working myself into a tizzy justifying my reaction to myself (I mean talk about creating work for myself - why can't I just not bother and not give a crap??!).  But I realised that just not wanting to is perfectly okay, it's just that I'm not wired to think that way, if that makes sense.  Anyway, I only thought I'd mention it in case it rang a bell with you  

[Hopalong]

Sooooo helpful, and so interesting, all.

Skep, I think V is very lucky and vice versa -- it sounds like a fantastic friendship. I also think it's lucky that you bond so comfortably with men and have that whole other universe of energy and building focus with many. You really do know who you are and what makes you happy. That's a big piece of all this too, not focusing on judging yourself or others, just getting on with what you enjoy and has value for you, for your unique life, your own individual interests, etc.

Sounds super healthy to me.

Tupp, it might've been on your home thread, but I really perked up when you talked about boundaries, and the intense discomfort you feel about setting them.

I think that's a key reminder for me too. If I don't SPEAK how I feel and what I want/need (using "I statements") then I live in uncertainty and anxiety. As I do learn to speak up more and more confidently, I lose some people's interest but others who don't take things personally just accept and it doesn't always break a connection, it can sometimes strengthen one.

The other thing is when I SPEAK, it's not always going to be about a negative (I need to NOT be asked this or not listened to or not called or whatever) ... it can be about a positive. E.g., I'm finding I want to spend more energy on what works or could work. I'm really enjoying some creative ideas about ____, I'm eager to have a good walk more regularly, want to join on Wednesdays?, etc whatever.

I've sometimes tied myself in knots trying to manage another person's emotions as well as my own. I'm not doing that anywhere near as often any more. I don't any longer believe I can change how other people feel. I can witness it with compassion (or boredom, sometimes) -- but I don't have to fix it. The sun will still rise.

It's a biggie, because like you, I spent years wanting to help so much that I'd exhaust myself. And that was a boundary violation in itself, because I hadn't set appropriate boundaries around MYSELF. My focus needed to shift from the other to myself. The person I'm most responsible to. The person who most needs to hear me and be kind and calm.

If I SPEAK on my own behalf, kindly and calmly, then whatever another person does with that information isn't mine to worry about. I'll get some disappointing responses, some kind ones, some neutral ones, and on it goes. Info in, info out.

Maybe self-talk is really the core thing. For those who've been abused, abandoned or harmed early on, someone else's voice once drowned out our own. But as we continue to heal and grow, maybe we'll start to hear our own voices as the kind and calm, trustworthy true north.

Other people can understand or not, approve or not, help or not. But nobody else can deafen us to our own voices. We just have to listen to ourselves, and trust ourselves. Somehow, we each know who we are and what our stories mean and what we want to reach for. Information overload, especially judgemental information, isn't helping. I believe our own kind, calm inner voices will.

(Pretty obvious I've made myself a new mantra, huh: kind and calm. I'm liking that today!)

hugs
Hops

PS Random afterthought:
We don't have to earn our own love. It's inside. We can listen to it. Changes all.

[Hopalong]

YES, CB!

Reciprocity is a golden mean for me.

Not 50-50, that's unattainable.

But feeling there's an adequate/good-enough balance of mutual awareness, mutual recognition, mutual respect for the other's life (time, plans, stresses, needs).

Whatever percentage someone needs, is what it is. Hopefully we'll all get new chances to discover new relationships where all that is possible. Friendships or otherwise.

I am sad that M couldn't adapt to your (very reasonable) needs but so admiring that your love for each other never got destroyed over it.

hugs
Hops