Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

VERY helpful comments, Amber.
Thank you so much for this.

Yes. There are specific, nearly mechanical-emotional, things I can do in the present to check in on what's happening and continue using reason. Thanks for reminding me that I can:

Pause (in the ladies room if need be) to ask myself...
--what questions is he asking me?
--are we sharing time relatively equally?
--is it a struggle to get a chance to share?
--does he talk mostly about power and money subjects?
--what does he say about relationships, what he wants on a real level?
--does he seem mostly focused on sex or physicality?
--is he wedded to staying where he lives? (The Watergate) Would dual places work?
--is he looking for new experiences and perspectives, or a partner to continue what he is most familiar with? (power circles, big money, geopolitical finance)
--does he seem reflective about who he is personally, inner growth, any sort of insight and inner maturation?
--would his expectations of a partner include a lot of "show" socializing, with elegant dress and power-broker socializing?
--does he have a homey side?
--will he yield fully to the reality that my dog is the cutest and bow before her desire for belly rubs?

Aha. I'm ready now.

hugs,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Well no-one could resist Pooch, Hopsie, so that one will be a given

Yes to everything Skep said.  T has been talking to me about values, knowing what my values are and then seeking/expecting those from other people (I have yet to put this into practise).  Maybe that's something to keep in mind?

There are always exceptions to the rule but in my humble experience people aren't usually rich, powerful, caring and sensitive.  I'm not suggesting that anyone wealthy can only be unkind, or that people on low incomes always have loving hearts, but I do think that the cut and thrust needed to achieve power and wealth in this crazy world we live in is generally only available to certain kinds of personalities.  I don't think gentle, bohemian "let's watch the clouds drift by" kind of people tend to chase power and wealth.  I'm also mindful of Lighter's mum telling her "you're not an apple waiting to be picked" (just because you mention him wooing you - are you contacting people or do they contact you?).  Maybe ask him about stuff that matters to you personally - who's his favourite poet?  Or artist or journalist or musician?  But you know, something that means something to you.  Maybe tell him about your poem that you won the prize for and see how he responds to that?  Particularly if poetry isn't something he's into - is he interested enough to want to know more, or does he say 'well done' and then immediately tell you about the award he got for the big contract blah blah blah? 

I do think you should mention to him that you have a friend in the UK who will come over and kick his arse if he causes you any problems as well   Lol.  I do think you need some shared interests to be happy with someone long term, even if it's just politics or being avid news listeners or something.  I agree with Skep very much about seeing how you feel - do you feel good or does he make you feel anxious, restless, hurried etc - consciously or not.  I add the caveat that I've not had so much as a date in ten years but other people's lives are always easier to deal with   I hope it's a fun date, whatever happens, and we want to hear all about it xx

[Hopalong]

Excellent insight, Tupp--thank you.

I do enjoy talking to him on the phone. The praise sounds sincere but it's also discomfiting. At least it's about my use of language and not just my face (although he also went on about that some). So weirdly reminiscent of M's bulldozer courting. Is this a Latin thing? And he sent me way too many pix of himself in multiple situations. I sent him about four.

Anyway, the whole first-date plan is put off for a few weeks until after he takes a trip with his grandson. I already told him I think we have little in common and I'm wary of opposites attract these days, but still look forward to meeting him because I know we'll have fun talking.

I'm just being honest and direct. He started suggesting a trip already and joking about the nicknames we'd use for each other and I said, too early to travel together and premature to come up with affectionate nicknames. He goes, of course you're right...but his fantasy train has left the station.

I'm definitely going to use those observations in the list of "ask myself" questions in the moment, plus these, Tupp.

As to whether a wealthy person can be kind...one example of that and probably a rare one, is my father. His family was wealthy but he was humble, kind and self-effacing. Perhaps not a typical example.

Anyhow, at least this guy, "C", pursued justice his whole career. He develope a mini media empire after leaving the law, but evidently it did a great deal to teach businesses, banks and governments how to avoid or track illegal funds.

It's a healthy diversion, so far. Probably good for me. Also could be going from the frying pan into the fire.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I know it's a stereotype that the very wealthy (these days, that definition keeps changing quickly) have a drive that prioritizes ambition, work & accumulation & status symbols above all else. But I know for a fact, that it's a stereotype and there are people in that income class that are real human beings, with depth and thoughtfulness; kindness. I'm just a very very tiny fish in that fishbowl. And with recent economic downturn, I'm not sure I'm even in that category anymore. I just don't care as long as I've got plenty for Hol to take over.

But, the reason I mentioned to pay attention to how you feel - and it might be anything - was because your intuition lives there. You have excellent social cue intelligence too. The first time B was here - happily putting my Rubicon right as rain - I noticed that feeling of being completely at ease and "happy". He can talk while he works and I was asking some questions and occasionally holding things or helping because my hands are smaller. After we ate a buffet lunch, he mentioned how comfortable he was - eating around other people is a mild trigger for him but he didn't feel that with us, me in particular. I listened less to the words he said, as to how I FELT. And it really felt good. Easy. Comfortable. And as a result of the feeling - we both opened up to each other and could be vulnerable about things. That almost NEVER happens with me, being the guarded self-protective type. Nothing in the time since has contradicted that feeling. Given me pause.

Not that I recommend moving that fast ever. The whole next year was me second-guessing that feeling and trying to fit it into different kinds of "explanations" other than serendipity and compatibility. LOLOLOL. And it was a year till we were able to get together again. We both had our time to sort ourselves out without the pressure of physical attraction messing with our experience and common sense knowledge of ourselves and what we wanted from a relationship.

I think the timing's right Hops. Maybe not this guy; maybe. But the idea is it's supposed to be fun to try things on for size. I think you can be fully in charge of yourself and participate/engage in the meeting while taking care of yourself.

[lighter]

Well, Hops.....

Here's to discerning between flitting diversion, deep connection and curiosity about what's really there. Or not.

Here's to dropping expectation and getting your toes wet without conditions and judgments about what might/should/could be there.

I hope you can drop all/any shame around asking for what you want, holding your ground and saying nothing to ease uncomfortable moments.  Allowing the first tiny transgression to go by (w/o stating the crossed boundary and consequence,) is always always a mistake, IME.  The FIRST mistake of many, IME. No one needs to repeat those patterns at this stage. Time for new ones, IME.

Mr. Man, whoever he is, is presenting himself for your discernment too. Not  just him discering around you, your attributes and what he SEES.

Some men won't appreciate this honesty.  Some go away then come back.  Some need to be sent packing and that's just part of not connecting, IME.  Some men rant and protest, but you still get to discern.  It's your job to discern, Hops. 

Because you used to hand out forks to zombies, it might be difficult to speak that freely, hold/weild the fork in new ways or not give it away..... let it be taken from you, but I urge you not to shy away from what feels like conflict.  Lean in to see what's really there, without fear, bc I have to tell you..... that's how you kiss fewer frogs and the keepers will shine through....... radiant and unexpectedly hued.  A little challenge can bring out true character and feelings,IME. 

What a deligt to find something unexpected.  Something built a little different.  Less needy and controlling...... sturdier in character without an ego hammering him into competition/winning/chasing/catching/collecting toxic traditional male roles desiring you behave in traditional female role. 

I feel sorry for Humans.  The world sends messages about what success is, what winning looks like, what is good and what is failure. Ouch.  It's crushing and constant.  So many of us didn't get "enough" in childhood.  So many aren't interested in seeing behind prescribed roles and lists of things to collect in order to be viewed as Alpha Gorilla, got it all, WINNER man..... whatever. 

I think you're looking for the guy who sees behind the cutain. Who can discern between what's supposed to be and what is here, right now... did Tupp say the joy all around us?  Someone said that. Someone who isn't still in the building collecting phase, who understands there's more to being a successful human being, partner, parent, companion.  The control issues are information, same as what appears to be humble and shy issues.  Sometimes humble and shy are just indicators insecurity and violence are going to roar forth as soon as they've been good enough, long enough to feel they can get away with anything, IME.

Who is Hops?  What do you want to be loved for?  Besides that amazing, literate brain. 

Honestly, maybe that's easier to wrap your mind around as you go on first dates.  Maybe you're interviewing yourself, in this situation, and the date provides context.

Or not.

Maybe just listening to your gut, honoring it and assuming trust will show up will interest you.  Sometimes I make it into a game..... I want to see what's really there. How ON is my intuition?  Is it off by much, if it's off  in all kinds of situations.  I find it very interesting, not matter what's going on around me, I still have me. I can count on myself.  I know that much. 

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Sorry for my clumsy wording, I didn't mean it to sound like I don't think anyone with money can possibly be a nice person xx

[lighter]

I thought you said it well, Tupp.

[sKePTiKal]

Tupp, I worried about my words too. I KNOW I'm very guarded in that setting and have a chip on my shoulder.

[Hopalong]

Lighter, I loved this:

Because you used to hand out forks to zombies

And your whole post really helped me. It's funny how you can write and describe in such vividly vague ways, yet after I read your advice I see that what it really was, was grounding.

Also LOVED: Alpha gorilla man, WINNER man, vs a man who sees behind the curtain, or is at least motivated to. I don't mind a powerful older man who's spent his life in Alpha mode, jolly good for him. But only if he's reached his golden years and is still awake enough to poke his head up, sniff around and say to himself, is there a perspective missing? What have I NOT been thinking about (say, half the world)? Those un-thought subjects don't apply to Amber or you, imo. Like women's lives, male entitlement (oooo to meet a man who is INTERESTED in that self-examination; those who do are so much more creative and exciting to be with).

Amber, I really got what you meant about how you FELT around Buck (and he around you) from the get-go. You are spot on. My T observed yesterday that I am so overactive in my thinking that I neglect to tune into what's happening in my chest and solar plexus. You're both absolutely right. But happily, it came up with T in the context of recent decisions and speakings-up and boundaries-setting with M (and now with C). She heard me describe doing/saying things that just owned and spoke how I actually feel. Not editing it to be certain they wouldn't be shocked.

Tupp, my arse-kicking friend, I'll just mentally take you along.
And you are describing the absolute core of what I habitually neglect when I meet some smart man and we instantly launch into really clacking banter that pleases us to do:

seeing how you feel - do you feel good or does he make you feel anxious, restless, hurried etc - consciously or not

That's exactly it. And I can say I already spot that he's moving too fast for me -- too many pix sent. Too many requests for another phone call. It's not hugely oppressive but it's out of sync with the slow, centered way I want to proceed. So I keep my foot on the brake, tell him No, and just ignore random "pings" from silly emails. I am just too old to be enchanted by texting or funny emails, or I'm too set in my own ways. I just find them intrusive interruptions. Leave me relatively alone until we've met, fella! I'm not going to bond with you BEFORE we do.

Hmmm, more nicely, I need to explain just that to him honestly. That I resist a lot of calls or correspondence until I have actually met the person, in person. Not trying to be unfriendly and I DO look forward to meeting him. But the way I'm constructed, I just don't "meet" people (except for y'all HERE!) online or by phone. For me, I know it's a good safeguard re. men. Another phone call this afternoon, ostensibly to firm up plans for his visit later next month. So I'm going to tell him that thing about me then. Whew. I think he'll understand but if not, as Light says, that's information.

THANK YOU! Thank you all of you!

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I've had really odd texting situations with a man who turned out to be so immature, so lacking in confidence that we could not hold a conversation in person AFTER he viewed me as potential mate material. 

And the texting.... was like a teenaged girl texting.  Such a plethora of never ending questions, silly statements and NNNNNEEEEEED to engage constantly. I was exasperated and overwhelmed and rocked back on my heels trying to answer some of the questions... some so person they were shocking TO ME. 

Today I'd just say I don't text much, we're not heading anyplace beyond being wood chopping friends and lock him out of all personal space... hand in his face when he overstepped...... nothing to get upset here handling of his intense teenaged child behaviors.

No judgement, just not for me.

This C guy sounds very focused on HIMSELF, how you make him feel, what you bring to his image, IMO.... perhaps?  Sound right? 

Your focus should be on you,, how you feel, what HE brings to the table with regard to what Hops wants, desires to feel, is looking for, kwim?

I'll say it till it seems right to stop... all of the above and more.

You're in charge of who you spend time with and gift your attention to. 

You're not an apple to be picked from a tree; )  Right, Tupp?

Lighter

[Hopalong]

This is very wise and concrete advice, Lighter.
I'll take it. Gratefully.

I dunno what he thinks he's doing, maybe this is Latin enthusiasm.
But as you say, I intend to focus on what I feel and what I want.

He seems bright, and was very courteous when I declined an evening call. Emailed that he understood completely.

I think I'll know more once I spell out to him my philosophy of intentionally NOT bonding before an in-person meeting. So I'm just fine waiting until next month and prefer not to be in constant contact between now and then.

If he responds just as graciously to that boundary, that'll be good news. If he doesn't, well I can even cancel the meeting if I choose to. Not so far, but it's a choice I have available to me.

I am the engineer of my own choo-choo. If there's an Express train barreling down a parallel track, I can send good wishes for its safe journey. Putta-putta-putta on Thomas the Tank, is what's the right speed for me.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

OK.

I realize I'm resistent to and resentful when pulled into a conversation I don't want to have, perhaps NEVER will want to have.

I'm aware of sending mixed signals your way with..... ASK for what you want... tellhim what you need AND when I say I would resent having to SAY out loud I intentionally do not bond with people at any point.  Paraphrasing here,but ..... I just can't imagine saying that,bc it feels so personal.  I know it's one of my things,bc I am a very private person, believe it or not as much as I blather on here, but......
it struck me as being pushed into response,and congrats to you for having that abiltity to be responsive under pressure, Hops.

I'm feeling very emotionally distant from caretaking other people's feelings right now, so I think it's more to do with that, about ME; )

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I get it, Light.

Would be much nicer to find someone who has enough functional intuition to pickup on the fact that he's too revved up and needs to slow his roll.

We'll see. More to learn before jumping out of the boxcar (OR hijacking the engine...)

I'm glad you shared all that. Truly.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Interesting. After I briefly explained to "C" that I generally prefer not to do a lot of phone calls or correspondence until we've met, he promptly stopped the daily contacts. I emailed him best train schedules for his visit next month. I figure either:
1) He lost interest if he's not welcome to pursue and woo right away, or
2) He's smart, considerate (or strategic) and simply respecting my request.

Either outcome is reality-friend so all is well!

(Do wish I knew anybody who's dated a prosecutor...what to expect? Aaack.)

Dinner with M last night. Pooch VERY happy to see him. It was okay. I notice I'm not quite as mellow as I usually felt going over there, but think that's natural given the big feels and perspective change that surfaced after his sons were here and his Tgiving invite w/his sister. All that (surfacing feelings) was ouchy but helpful.

We chatted some of the usual: Coronavirus, health, politics and other stuff. I commented I thought it'd be wise for him to tour local retirement places in case a day comes when he can't manage at home. Just to know what's here so it wouldn't be a decision under pressure one day, if it's ever necessary. I know them all well and recommended the schmanciest (full of retired diplomats, professors, ambassadors, big-cheeses). Told him he'd be surrounded by highly-educated, highly-successful people and he'd likely enjoy it. He said, "You can go and live with me there!". Another jaw dropper. I just gaped, I think.

Anyhow, premature and also weird. If you care for someone enough to live with them, why wait 10-15 years? He doesn't. I just make him feel safe. If only that were mutual, but emotionally, it ain't. Dropped the subject and we ate mussels.

Lighter, you'll enjoy this: when he was over here a week ago I folded some laundry and commented on my frayed towels: "Old Gent's towels are my towels" (because that's where I got them). M glances at a towel and says, "Do they work?" (Same reaction he'd once had when I showed him a threadbare bathrobe--"oh it's fine!"). But THEN (drumroll), M said, "Does it bother you?" and I answered, "Sometimes." Well Hops, you can have towels! he says, exasperated. End of subject. A week later 2 sets of lovely Turkish towels arrive. So maybe M is still gift-clueless but actually thought about it for a sec? Made me laugh. Thanked him genuinely, said small luxuries do lift the spirit, I just don't allow myself many. Great towels.

We also briefly discussed whether we'd be pod-partners again once Delta variant hell arrives, and agreed to. For now, I feel okay about it. But am generally hauling my mind off him a bit more easily. He's very happy with his professional life at the moment, fully engaged in his own work and plans for the Moscow trip. Good.

Me, relationship with self and health and home and friends (plus hopefully some dating before the local world implodes again) -- back at it. I sense small progress.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Well I'm quite excited now, Hopsie, I like the fact he backed off when you asked him to!  Getting one that actually hears what you say would be a big step forward, in my opinion   Is it next month you're due to meet up?  I'm glad about the towels   And the covid pop, should it be necessary.  I'm glad you're getting back into your groove and that things are moving forward a bit xx