Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 154714 times)

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #915 on: October 25, 2021, 02:16:18 PM »
I don't know that it's possible not to feel our feelings, Hopsie?  I think people just are a certain way about certain things and I don't think you should give yourself a hard time for feeling excited/hopeful/seeing an end to being alone and so on.  I think you'd kind of be stuck when it comes to love if you didn't get butterflies in your tummy over someone and have that little ping of "ooh!  This could be good" early on?  I think that's the bit that is so intoxicating and exciting and the bit that gets you hooked on someone.

I think you played it the right way.  You did gather info, you didn't rush in to build it in to something it isn't, you've had a couple of nice dates and things are friendly, which is good.  Personally, I'd not like to see you spend another two years meeting the Scot, lovely though he sounds, for lunches and get togethers, because I don't think you can relegate him to the friend zone - I think you would be hoping he'd change his mind.  Which isn't to say I don't think you should never see him again, but I think I would try very hard to meet other people, difficult though I know it is with the Covid situation.  Just so it doesn't become another situation of pining and hoping things will change whilst having to put that emotional energy into being friends, when you know you want so much more.  It's not quite the same situation, but I pined for a friend for a long time because he wasn't ready for another relationship (his previous one ended badly).  And we did lunches and long talks and sat up half the night sharing all our secrets and eventually he was ready for another relationship - with someone else :)  And that crossed my mind when I was reading your post as well.

I did wonder if there is anything you can do to make the prospect of a permanent single life more palatable?  I just wondered if it's in any way possible to focus on that (which you can control?  I guess?  If there are certain things you can do that would make that feel better?).  Which is not to say forget the idea of meeting someone, far from it, but I just wondered if there was something else you could focus on if it might make it less of a disappointment if a couple of promising dates doesn't become any more than that?  I just know with me that I cope better if I can work on things I can control and the things I can't become a bit less prominent in my mind.  So with the current situation, for example, I can't control next door, but I've taken as many steps as possible about the things I can control to minimise the effects of what he does.  It's still crap, but it has reduced the emotional kick from all of it.  I don't know if it would make sense in your situation, or if the being single option just isn't something that can be improved on but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

I think you're doing a grand job and I hope you don't beat yourself up over feeling a bit down that it isn't looking to be anything more just now xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #916 on: October 25, 2021, 03:07:07 PM »
Thanks, Tupp. SUCH wise counsel.

Not giving two years to just-friending, because I'm at risk of pouring too much of myself into it based on dreaming, rather than what is. And isn't. YES. I don't know what limit I'll bump into but if Scot remains so casual that it's clear, I'll act to protect my heart better. I hope.

Continuing to date. (Will do, as possible. Not many opportunities just now.)

Accepting a permanently single life and being happy anyway.
Tall order but I know it's pragmatic. I'm a fierce defender of women embracing independence and finding joy in solitude over staying in miserable relationships. I just don't know that I can ever uproot my core desire for love AND commitment until I'm so feeble it's ridiculous. Two unhappy short marriages and then on my own since 1995....M being the longest exception...rekindled the hope and determination. It was "almost there" with M for a time. So couldn't it be "there!" w/someone new?

I know sanguine, calm older women who've made complete peace with permanent singlehood. I know how likely it is that this is how I'll wind up anyway whether I want to or not. But for now, I can't see that as my goal because honestly, it's not.

I am fairly staggered that at this age, I'm still trying to grow up.

Thank you, Tupp. Your reality anchor, your persistence, are a model for me.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #917 on: October 25, 2021, 04:34:02 PM »
Amber, thanks for this:

Quote
...this isn't a rejection, OK? It's an admission that he's feeling uncomfortable with his own feelings about what he wants. It's good he respects you enough to be honest about it.

I agree with all of this. He's not rejecting, he's being honest and considerate. (Imagine!). I have met so many men ready to use but not to give. 

I'm glad you developed LTRs with previous friends. I'm awed. It is absolutely the best outcome. I think you're better at guarding your inner self and/or pacing your outer impulses than I am but it's a discipline I can aspire to get a BIT better at. That's probably it, realistically.

Helping him ... as a just-friend
Restraining my own dreams ... as a just-friend
Helping him gain perspective ... as a just-friend

Tall order. But the right thing to do if I find I avoid becoming a slobbery naked oyster in the meantime. UGH. Who loves being this vulnerable? I do NOT!

hugs and thanks,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #918 on: October 25, 2021, 04:36:30 PM »
Beatiful wisdom and great advice, Lighter -- thank you for this:

Quote
Just be a light in his world and keep being your happy self, ((Hops.)). That he's an honest Scot is a good thing, imo.

 People like being around folks who make them feel better/good.  Remember boundaries and keep seeking joy.

It's like these are highway signs. I need glasses for driving, must make an appointment.

I think YOU guys are my signposts, my focus, and are offering me recognition of when to take the lead foot off the accelerator.

Thanks so much,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #919 on: October 25, 2021, 06:01:54 PM »
PS Tupp -- That must have hurt SO much. To be an emotional nurse to a man you carried love and hopes about, help him heal emotionally by being so open to his needs and sharing so much time ... and then find out he's all ready to go forth -- to someone else.

I'm sending him a flabby arse-kicking. I'm sorry that happened to you. No wonder you're a romance-realist. I'm taking notes.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #920 on: October 25, 2021, 11:37:07 PM »
PS Tupp -- That must have hurt SO much. To be an emotional nurse to a man you carried love and hopes about, help him heal emotionally by being so open to his needs and sharing so much time ... and then find out he's all ready to go forth -- to someone else.

I'm sending him a flabby arse-kicking. I'm sorry that happened to you. No wonder you're a romance-realist. I'm taking notes.

hugs
Hops

He's still a good friend, Hopsie, I think I'll always love him - when Covid started it was immediately him I thought of and wanted to be with - "if we're all going to die in the next few weeks then I want to spend those weeks with you" kind of stuff.  He didn't do anything wrong.  I thought if I was good, kind, helpful, thoughtful and put his needs before my own - as I'd always been taught to, in every situation and with every person - then I'd be rewarded, and my reward would be him.  And that's not how it works.  He and I are good friends, he cares for me, a lot, but when it comes to romance, his interests lie elsewhere.  He never made any indication it was anything other than that, there were no false promises, it was my mind that had been so drilled to believe I must be good at all times and that would lead to good things.  In his mind, I was being a good friend to him (which I was), but he wasn't looking for any more than that in me.  We all love having good friends, right?  That's why, truthfully, I wouldn't aim to be a good friend to the Scot.  I think you'll be looking for signs and tiny nuggets that he's into more than that (like you did with M), distracted by him (so not focusing so much on meeting someone else) and getting your heart broken just a little bit each time that you wish it was more than friendship and he'll be oh so happy because he gets this lovely, intelligent, vibrant, engaging woman he can enjoy meals and days out with whilst he (wisely) guards his own heart.  " - Helping him - as just a friend - restraining my own dreams - as just a friend - helping him gain perspective - as just a friend" set my codependency bells off.  This is a huge undertaking for a guy you've been out with twice and who has done absolutely nothing for you, as a friend.  And no need for him to, because he hardly knows you, and you hardly know him.  I know you enjoyed both dates but truthfully, we can all turn in a good show for a couple of hours at a time.  There could be a complete and utter arsehole lurking beneath that benevolent Scottish exterior :)  And of course, there might not be, he could be exactly as he presents but I think you might do well to think about how best to help yourself, live your dreams and gain your own perspective, you know?  And whether 'being his friend' is going to help you do any of that?

Re being permanently single, I wouldn't mean it to sound like I think you should accept it and give up any hope of anything different, I just wondered if a change of focus in your mind might help - if there were any practical steps you could take to make the prospect less scary?  Like looking around again at living arrangements (help nearby sort of places), working on a health plan that can be adhered to over the winter months (group dog walking or something?  Outside, lots of fresh air, with similarly Covid conscious people?).  A new hobby, something practical and creative, maybe, where you could meet other people (again, Covid in mind).  Things like that.  I just wondered if there was a third option in between 'meeting Mr Right' and 'alone forever', both of which are very real possibilities, I'm not suggesting they aren't.  Nor am I suggesting a sort of false happiness about being alone when you don't want to be (you know how much I hate all this false positivity stuff :) ).  But whether there's a practical plan that just might keep your mind busy enough that pining for what might be with the Scot doesn't become your main focus over the winter.

Anyway, lecture over :)  I don't mean any of that in a critical, unkind way.  You're a wonderful person, Hopsie, warm hearted and caring, intelligent, emotionally aware, you've lived many lives and learned to cope with a lot of pain along the way.  You are sensitive and romantic, and prone to writing the story of how it's all going to go, and that's a good thing - the world would be a happier, safer place with more people like you in it.  But I also think it's sensible to be aware of all of that and not ask yourself to do things that you're probably not able to do without damaging yourself a bit or giving yourself a lot of extra work that quite likely will only benefit someone else.  He has told you, clearly, that he's not looking for anything other than friendship.  Which politely translates into "I'm not interested", because we aren't friends with people we've met twice.  We build friendships with people over a long period of time, and experiences together, and tough times when we see how they react and respond.  Anything before that is just passing time over a coffee, you know?

I am sending protective vibes from across the pond and I hope you will put you, and the reality of your own situation, first, and not put all your focus on what would be best for him just now xx

Editing to add  I do understand that ADD makes certain things difficult/impossible to do so suggestions might not be ADD friendly - but wondered if it would spark an idea that is ADD friendly if that makes sense? xx
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 03:01:06 AM by Twoapenny »

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #921 on: October 26, 2021, 08:38:20 AM »
Quote
- "Helping him - as just a friend - restraining my own dreams - as just a friend - helping him gain perspective - as just a friend" set my codependency bells off.  This is a huge undertaking for a guy you've been out with twice and who has done absolutely nothing for you, as a friend.  And no need for him to, because he hardly knows you, and you hardly know him.

My CoD bells went off at my quote too, Tupp. It was a partial summary of both my instinctive desire to make things okay for him (with unrealistic hopes that'd he'd also eventually do the same for me) plus what friends were recommending in general -- me being a certain way for him. Including poet. Not that the idea of helping him or restraining myself for that purpose would be categorically wrong -- it's really what love is -- but the importance of your last sentence. THAT's the "reality is my friend" piece. Reality still IS my friend, and I don't want to over-fantasize about how a friendship would go, any more than how a romantic relationship would go. One way or another, I've got to teach myself to fill my head with more reality and less butterflies and unicorns.

I feel better this morning. Less ashamed of having had sudden strong feelings for a stranger. I woke up thinking about (again) re-engaging in my own world and life and got my mind focused on that. Kind of "back in my body", kwim? Feel a little embarrassed at everything I spewed out here, so thank you very much for your kindness and perspective. I feel as though I got back to the pier.

The checking out new living arrangements still isn't on. I know all the "elder alternatives" in the area and cannot afford any other option at the moment than living in my home alone. I don't want to move out of my sweet house anyway if it's not absolutely necessary. I COULD explore, once supply chains reopen, the faint (very faint) possibility of adding a small extension with a BR and bath, which would open up the chance of a housemate (or even carer one day). BUT that would take half or likely most of my savings, which are the only bulwark between me and not having any daily help if/when I'm too frail to manage everything on my own.

I have PLENTY to do all winter even if most of the human stuff is on Zoom. I absolutely need more structure and an exercise plan. (I've got one, need to DO it.) I have things in my home to tend to that will boost my self-esteem like crazy once I do them. I have a freaking novel to write. I'm a lot more involved in church stuff again and overall, I like it. I get to act out my own values and interact with good people while doing so. Right now, they include:
--leading a women's Covenant Group, which eases isolation and stimulates the mind for everybody
--a new role as one of the leaders of a refugee project. I do all the communications. We're supporting a family of Afghan refugees arriving soon from a military base south of here. They're in quarantine because somebody got measles, but once that passes. A refugee organization will secure their apartment but we will be fundraising to cover rent, collecting furniture and household goods and clothes and a storage unit for donations, hunting down various things they'll need, etc. Some of our group will be directly contacting the the family (or couple or individual, we don't know yet)  on a regular basis. They will help them navigate health care, drivers' licenses, schooling, employment, etc. And offer them regular contacts and mentoring to reduce their shock and help them acclimate and hopefully thrive in time. I'll write it all up and keep the congregation updated, create new appeals or drives, etc.
--a new proposal I call Elder Net which I've written up and met with the minister about. Don't know how fast it'll get going but it's a gap that I've cared about since long before I became older myself. The church has a patchwork of old people looking out for older people. The church itself does a ritual elder dinner once a year. It's very nice, but doesn't cover the needs of people like those I worked for before the pandemic. I'm talking about creating a program specifically for isolated OLD-elders with no involved family nearby. Wrote up a long list of what I'd observed about how many (and these were all folks who COULD afford to be in a "senior community" of some kind--it's a well-off congregation) just give up on the congregation when they're old enough to: have trouble hearing, not drive, deal with pain, have trouble with technology, inadequate diet, a host of stuff. And my point to the minister/church is: We take special focused care of toddlers and babies and don't resent their vulnerability or need, but when folks get OLD-old, we let them quietly slip between the cracks of the community's attention and some not only live alone but deal with pain and isolation and debility on their own. OLD-olds are inconvenient and involve work and if we are (as a spiritual community) what we say we are, I say we are neglecting them. The minister didn't disagree and said she'd take it further and see what we could start up if I'd remain involved (I said absolutely). I want MULTIgenerational involvement. Teenage crews can rake leaves, cut grass, walk dogs. Other folks could "adopt" an old-elder to visit regularly and check in with, etc. Some of that does get done anyway for many of them; it's the few I worry about (especially since my friend who'd volunteered for years and worked his ass off for the church died alone in his apartment and wasn't missed for days).
--a big local social justice organization we're part of...I'm a "network member" which involves messaging and meetings and again updates to the congregation. I don't enjoy it as much as the other things but it's literally good work that makes a difference to local poor people so I'm continuing it year over year.

So there's all that. It's not as though my community life has to lack meaning. If I focused more on what other humans need and less on myself, life would be better. For me, it's pretty simple but I need more WILL. Keep at my health, care for my home (downsize and declutter), and WRITE MY BOOK.

Thank you again, Tupp. That was a bracing and very helpful post and I'm really touched you "entered in" to what I've been doing and what I could do instead.

Greatful hugs, and apologies to all for my meltdown!
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #922 on: October 26, 2021, 10:07:29 AM »
Aw, Hops, I love the sound of all those projects!  Especially the Elder Net one.  I think sometimes things like that just need someone with the oomph to organise them.  There's often lots of people willing to help, and I think sometimes people don't even know that there's an elderly chap who only lives ten minutes away and never sees anyone - we tend to stay in our own bubbles, don't we.  I love the thought of you matching up people who can help with people who need it.  And you're so right about the babies and children thing.  Why do we just ignore and neglect our elders?  It's horrible.

I completely understand money being an issue and it's a real tough one if you have to decide between getting physical changes and adaptations done and paying someone to come in and do other things you can't do.  Also makes me mad that people have to make those choices and we aren't living in a way where you'd know that you'd be looked after one way or another.

Please don't feel embarrassed or feel you need to apologise (she says, having just posted that your feelings are your feelings and you shouldn't disregard them ;)  Lol, you know what I mean, though).  You know it's safe to say things on here that you might not elsewhere and it won't come back to bite you on the arse :) I get that same instinctive desire to make things okay for people and there are a lot of people who genuinely need and would appreciate that help.  But I just know with me I give away too much of myself and I think you're similar (and all of those projects you're involved in sound like a lot of helping people anyway).

I'm glad you're feeling a bit better/more clear headed today and I am continuing to send my 'send Mr Hops in Hopsie's direction' vibes in your general direction.  And yes, get that book written :)  Lol xx

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #923 on: October 26, 2021, 02:30:26 PM »
Hops, I wonder if the negative image of "single old-age" is something conditioned into us. I think we assume that it's lonely, boring & pitiful... at least, I think this is part of our mental picture about it sometimes. You can make your life what you want it to be, you know? And you're definitely doing that, from your description.

As for your dream of finding Mr. Right... I don't think you need to give it up. Owning that dream and continuing to pursue it (both with the Scot and the possible others later) is still a worth while endeavor. If you try friendship and aren't able to manage the desire for more... just tell him. Own it and at that time, make a decision about how/how not you want to continue.

It will be OK Hops. At our age, we don't need the angst or drama or games of our earlier days... and can still have those dreams and even fantasies... and hope for their fulfillment. We can break ALL the rules about relationships we want to - and design them in a way that's suitable for both participants.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #924 on: October 26, 2021, 02:53:20 PM »
Thanks, Amber. I appreciate the encouragement AND the caution.

The "lonely pitiful older age" stuff is based on too much witnessing of those feelings in others nearing the end of their life. It's really daunting but I agree I shouldn't succumb.

Truly, though I have a few good friends, I think the tunnel only narrows from here. Having zero family or children to care about me, etc., is a big part of it. Friends do for sure, but even they can't step in and transform my life.

I have to.
The issue is that I deal with lots of fear about whether I'm able.

I don't like how weak I feel way too often. Working on it with T, but boy is it slow.
(I left my will to thrive on the curb after my D left my life. I KNOW it's not right.)

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #925 on: October 27, 2021, 01:10:34 AM »
(((Hops)))

Sometimes I think willingness to thrive could be as simple as refusal to ruminate in past or present, but I don't know.

You're amazing.  I say be your own engaged and busy self.....without fear  You'll draw people to you, ime. 

Lighter






Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #926 on: October 27, 2021, 10:15:34 AM »
Thanks, (((((Lighter)))))).
I hope to be doing that, easing into winter-busy. In-person meetings haven't really soared back yet, and nothing much is happening on the dating site, so I think winter-mode is here early and I won't likely meet a lot of people for the next six months. But I do have things I could and should do that have meaning too.

The Scot thing just really surprised me, how intense my feelings of pain and disappointment were. Calmed down now but I still haven't quite understood it. Good topic for T today.

'Tis the season of Zoom, that's for sure. I have three today: therapy this afternoon, then back to back this evening: speaking about FB at the beginning of a church Board mtg, then a poetry reading I'm excited about. Tomorrow night is a refugee planning meeting.

What would be ideal would be for me to ignore shoulder or other discomforts and my usual reflex to get under the covers and stay there, and actually accomplish a little something in the house. Plus take a walk with Poorch. That would feel GOOD.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #927 on: October 27, 2021, 11:21:49 AM »
Hops, you are probably feeling an old wound, that the Scot unintentionally poked at.

We all have different issues surrounding attachment, approval from others, need to be "seen"/"known".... etc from the past that will kick up at different times. And of course, different coping mechanisms. B and I are only now - after a few years - getting into some of those. No matter how much one feels they've moved on or healed - there are always sensitive spots.

I think it's a bit concerning how quickly your hopes & expectations about the mutual "like" in this relationship had the potential to be something a lot deeper. Even with the instant attraction between B & I, neither of us jumped to commitment and deep feelings that quick. Doesn't mean there weren't comments, butterflies & rainbows at that time, but neither of us took them that seriously initially. It took more time to learn to trust the other - constantly looking at & second-guessing whether there were "red flags" or just our own fearful imagination.... or personal issues.

And we both have personal history, other relationships (close & otherwise) in our lives... that needed some explanation, understanding, and acceptance. Loyalty is one thing, B & I have a lot in common on... and that's both good and bad when starting to build a new relationship.

You and the Scot have seen each other twice. That's like casually looking at house plans - before buying property, selecting a contractor, and beginning that long process of making a thousand decisions. Dreams are DEFINITELY IMPORTANT. But it is always wise to take one's time before giving permission to believe you're living out a dream. The resulting disappointment (and I guarantee there will be at least one - probably something one can live with; sometimes not) will be a giant kick in the heart, if you give too much too soon. That can even scare a person off.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #928 on: October 27, 2021, 11:44:53 AM »
I think it's a bit concerning how quickly your hopes & expectations about the mutual "like" in this relationship had the potential to be something a lot deeper.

You are absolutely right, Amber. I think it's not just concerning but alarming. It is Topic #1 to talk about with T today.

It's a whole-life thing, I believe, for me. Me, my life, my loneliness, time advancing, traffic on the dating site dwindling now that I'm soon to be 72. IOW, rather than just being sensibly alert for compatibility, I revealed too soon how excited I was to connect with the Scot. I may indeed have "scared him off" and that possibility is both humiliating and painful. I think it says good things about him that he sensed my vulnerability and carefully dissauded me. And yet still I scraped for ambiguity ("ooo, 'not ready' might mean readiness is still his eventual goal? Doubt it.) If he's saying let's be casual I'll never feel any other way, might be better as Tupp hinted not to spend time with him. Or, I might learn something good from another encounter or two.

I hadn't been thinking of myself as that desperate, which I KNOW is an unattractive quality. I think in part my reaction may represent that although I ended things permanently with M a few months ago and am not looking back, perhaps there's still damage in me from all that (linked of course to old N-baggage -- feeling used and led on) I haven't yet healed from. The Scot was doing nothing of the sort.

I don't know. I know I felt huge pain at this particular letdown, which I normally don't feel if a man doesn't click with me or vice versa. I think dating now is feeling very different than it did a year or so back. I feel a time-and-culture window inexorably closing, so the alone-rest-of-my-life scenario feels much more likely than it did then.

However. I won't stop thinking. Once I fully understand it I should be better able to manage it.

Mercifully, I do have clarity on the distinction between the pain I felt at his message (which was about myself) and feeling "love." I am not "in love" with the Scot. I have a runaway imagination and my intuition was telling me "great fit!" while his was not. But it is easy to imagine more, too easy, and that's a big part of my problem.

I'm glad I'm a poet because it's the thing I'm best at, but at time it's agonizing to be so emotionally open. That's what helps create good poetry, but doesn't help for walking around.

Thanks for your wise caution Amber...I really need it.

Much gratitude,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #929 on: October 27, 2021, 11:58:16 AM »
Hmmm. I wonder if I have "daddy issues"?

I actually wonder. More T stuff!

My father was SO decent, self-effacing and driven by ethics and core Xian values (never preached, just treated all people with respect and kindness), and I adored him. He was the One Safe Person in my childhood. He radiated the good stuff.

I wonder if meeting a man who has "serve others" all over his resume, in great contrast to M whose service to his students was mostly polish-his-own-ego-with-acolytes .... hit me in the lost-father place?

The Scot's resume shocked me in that way. He has spent his entire career making a positive difference in the world, centered literally on ethics. (He founded a center for ethics in international relations.)

I wonder if the part of me that misses that kind of man (Hi, Dad) also got triggered, so some of the pain I was feeling was grief at missing a boat from the same flotilla?

Dunno, dunno, but this is making sense to me. I have met SO many men who seem cynical, jaded, bored with life, uninterested in others, vapid, shallow, super materialistic, status-driven, etc etc.

I think maybe the Scot was a projection screen for me ALSO because he clearly has the kinds of values I don't often find. The hyper-Xian veteriarian just wanted to get laid, as did the furniture-empire owner, the conservative defense-contractor widower. Nothing wrong with THAT as part of connection, but so few of those also showed interest in the other layers of life.

Although I'm so weary I'm sure I'm no longer arm candy, the patio guy said to me yesterday, "You're a pretty woman" (sheesh!). So, nice, I guess. But I'd like to be seen beneath the skin, and part of my runaway fantasizing was that the Scot would value ME. Not just the dimple or humor or whatever.

Interesting. I do find it very easy to imagine him valuing me. Stupid but true.

Anyway thanks, Amber. You invited me to go deeper and as ever, once I understand something, it drains away much of its power to hurt me. Just wish I wasn't so slow at it.

But this has given me some strength and I'm looking forward to talking it over w/T.

hugs
Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."