Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

After relaxing a bit too much this evening, I thought of my T's suggestion that I could always contact the Scot and be a grownup: just say, are we on the same page about friendship? (Since he'd never responded since saying he'd be calling after "at least a week" in NYC for work.)

Hmmm. I wrote this:

I was thinking you're probably back from NYC by now; hope all went well. I was also thinking that saying you would call was a friendly impulse but perhaps not one that really suits you at this point.

Thought I'd honor your offer of friendship by checking in. I expected nothing but enjoyed the idea!

He responded instantly that he'd like to meet me for coffee next week (and NYC never happened, some long story). Hmmmm again.

So I said okay, and if it's cold out I'll invite him here bringing his own coffee, since I just have tea on hand.

Very odd. Don't feel worked up about it one way or another. It's pleasant to realize I haven't thought about him at all for weeks.

So I dunno what sort of meaning this has, if any. I imagine I'll just be calm and see what he talks about. No more drama.

But it's...interesting. Maybe this is the sort of stay-in-neutral-while-being-yourself-and-being-observant kind of thing Lighter and Amber always advise.

I'll give it a try. Nothing to lose.

Hmmmm?

hugs
Hops

[Phyll]

Hopalong, I think it is much less scary approaching this as a friendship.  I recall you wrote that he quit drinking.  That may be a lot of pressure for him to learn how to date again after a long marriage and without the use of a social lubricant. You are being a friend by meeting him where he is at.  Coffee or tea and maybe some baked goods to snack on?  A card or board game maybe - or share some pics of your recent trip, or books you read?  Have a nice visit!

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Phyll. It might be okay, or might not. I'm mindful of something Lighter wrote reminding me vigorously that I can also change my mind at ANY point if I find it's not comfortable or positive for me. Given how vigilant I am becoming about checking in with myself, I think I'll know pretty quickly.

Hope it's pleasant for me but feeling fairly confident (hope not delusional) that I can shut it down pronto if it's not. I'm not even sure why I followed the impulse but I don't think it was too destructive. Those few days of huge revelations (for me) were incredibly valuable to my growth regardless of whether a friendship happens. And I don't want to treat a man like he's fentanyl, as that makes me powerless.

I'm actually glad he didn't contact me for such a stretch because that is more evidence that he really is not only not motivated to date/mate but perhaps not even to tend a budding friendship. If that didn't change after one more coffee time, I'll lost interest. Reciprocity is just as important in friendship as in a romantic relationship for me. His lack of followup has also cooled my overall interest to a manageable lukewarm. Just haven't been thinking about him. It is interesting though that when I did, he responded instantly. That would, on the surface at least, suggest he does want a friendship. But if he doesn't follow through or reciprocate fairly soon OR I don't feel at ease around him because I've underestimated my healing from my previous reaction, gate closes AND locks. I do think that upwelling of insight was huge for me, and that short-term pain is quite healed now. Something literally changed in me. So maybe this contact was just to test it.

Reciprocity, though. Slow starts for anything (building a friendship or whatever) are fine. Ongoing lack of any initiative or tending isn't fine, since that keeps the maintenance burden one sided. Ain't doing that no more. I feel like I know what to watch for, within myself, which is all I have control over.

We shall see if I'm blowing hot air and if you hear that whoosh, warn me!

Thanks for the support, Phyl.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Be curious, Hops.  I really want you to lean into what's real.....without any self judgments.  Just....zero judging.

You're going to share coffee with this man.  Again.  That's the mission.

Oh, ya.....and to mine all the joy you can, no matter how it goes.  You're whole, complete and enough, just as you are.

Be yourself.  Notice reciprocity or lack of. 

I'm wondering if your refreshing honesty scared him a bit on the front end.  I'm pretty candid too and it's backfired a bit.  I'm getting better at holding my horses, slowing down and releasing need to be understood by others.

Understanding, myself, is turning out to be all I really need when I have fellowship in 3d and on this amazing forum.  There's more serenity, less anxiety.....more choice and feeling ok with what is.

Have fun.  The immediate respons is a good thing, imo.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Hmm. I'd invited him to bring his pooch to my yard and patio sit. He later emailed that Friday is going to be warm and can we meet downtown. I called back because I don't enjoy our emailing. I'm too rambling and he's too terse.

Anyway, turns out he'd wanted to meet downtown because he has another errand there and said we'd have about 45 minutes ("Is that enough, to catch up?"). I just don't feel motivated to get moving earlier than usual, dress properly, find parking and get to the Mall for a fairly rushed meet. Not a very relaxing prospect. Plus, I have a possible yard helper coming Friday so it'd be better for me to be home.

I declined and suggested he get in touch after his next trip. He's very busy and that's a good thing for him. But I am not holding my breath. If he finds his way to a more relaxed time frame it'd be enjoyable. This just felt too constricted for me.

His dog's daycare schedule is a high priority and he's ignored my suggestion to bring him over. So I dunno -- maybe he's making excuses or just doesn't have time (or enough interest to make the time).

Feel okay about it. I was privately getting irritated and there's no point to that. He owes me nothing but I don't enjoy the uncertainty. My problem, not his.

I will look into relaxing around it. I don't think the Scot will change my life (or vice versa) so it's best to let it go, pronto.

Should he call again then I'd feel reciprocal interest was present enough.

All good,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hopsie, I hope you don't mind me saying, but I think this is strike three.  He told you clearly he's not interested in a relationship.  He said he wanted to stay in touch as friends but then didn't call.  Now he's accepted (initially) your very thoughtful invitation for a drink free, dog friendly, covid avoiding social date and changed the arrangement to expecting you to haul arse to meet him in accordance with his schedule for a scant 45 minutes of his time.  I think getting irritated is a good thing; he sounds like he needs a bat up his kilt and your senses were telling you that.  He owes you the respect of doing what he said he was going to do, and he hasn't done that.  I think making it clear he can only spare you 45 minutes in between errands is bloody rude, quite frankly, and a truthful 'no thank you' would have been better.  I am hoping very much you meet someone who appreciates your thoughtful arrangements and is looking forward to spending a good chunk of time with you so that you can fill them in on your poetry, your refugee accommodation finding efforts, your elderly care group and so on.  You have an awful lot to give to the right person xx

[Hopalong]

I don't mind at all, Tupp. I am 90%+ in agreement.
Have been confused by his niceness and encouraging responses (email and phone) but you're right, behavior matters more than words.

I don't think he saw it as rude but perhaps it is. (In his life in NYCity and elsewhere everything's been rush-rush and important, but my life is intentionally a lot slower and simpler, which I think he's not interested in.) I gather he's so highly invested in working, writing articles etc that anything else takes second (or 10th) place. He's also mentioned other friends so I'm thinking he already has plenty.

I don't have to judge him for it but do want to accept what's real. I always do better with things spoken rather than not, so I may send a sort of summary  message explaining my sense that our senses of friendship-building vary so much that disappointment may lie in that direction. My idea of friendship building isn't rushed or superficial but he may be more comfortable with that. What I look for in friendship now is different as I think I'm in a life chapter where quality of friendships matters more than quantity. I enjoy relaxed long conversations with meaning rather than just occasional anecdote-swapping. He's likewise entitled to enjoy what he enjoys most. Staying in touch with a jammed list of folks he's known after decades of profound and satisfying world-changing work, and those people seem to mean a lot to him, which is a lovely thing. That ain't me--my career was meh.

It helped me when ending friendship illusions with M. to state it gracefully but unequivocally. It reinforced my decision. I think I may do that again.

It feels good to be honest with myself today, about old dead-horse-beating reflexes vs. speaking-up while letting-go. The speaking up part is about claiming my own needs and preferences as equal and following suit. Dunno if I'm exactly where I need to be but I do feel better when I'm not passive about this stuff.

And I don't feel anger. That implies attachment and there's no real basis for any. I've been hoovering out my head and the air is clearer in there. Some dust motes but at least I can see.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Felt even clearer.
Wrote him that if he'd like a relaxed visit of a couple hours, I'm in. I also asked him to clarify what week I'd be hearing from him (he mentioned another NYC trip so fast I didn't grasp the when). Added that if I don't hear by then, I'll just release the idea (meaning friendship) with sincere best wishes for him either way. (Anybody who really wanted to be a friend, I think, would be willing. He may, like M, consider professional long-term colleagues his friends, though I define it differently for myself.)

I have a new friend -- female -- coming over tomorrow, who responded when I wrote after getting to know her a bit at the beach asking, do you have room in your quiver for another friend? --Absolutely, I'd love to!. As Tupp says, the Scot has responded if not clearly at least consistently, by not offering anything like that. Confused me but not any more. What I saw as thoughtful ideas, he might have seen as scary. The man said he's not ready and I believe him. Whew.

Could seem pathetic but actually it felt good. I'm going to treat people with the courtesy with which I expect want to be treated, while bearing in mind that people have wildly varying ideas of what is normal and acceptable in their different heads. Again, he owes me nothing. What matters is what behavior I owe myself.

I remember some phrase I read somewhere: Be impeccable with your word.

All that was missing was me calmly asserting my preferences (which he is free to take or leave), and I think my message did that pretty clearly. IOW: commit to a couple hours if you genuinely enjoy that prospect; likewise be clear about when you'll be in touch. (No false or vague hints pass GO.) If he won't/doesn't, off he goes from my head --for good-- in a cloud of bubbles.

I don't want to spend my precious remaining time in anything faked.

Lighter, you're right that I likely scared him with my blunt honesty. I'm just too far gone in the transparency process to throttle it back now. If I scare men away then I'm not destined to be with a man again. I'm always gentle and compassionate even while direct. But maybe that's too much for most. If it is, I'm okay with it now.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Amazing, post, Hops!  Shifting into acceptance of what is and getting on with it.  Cuts out the angst and ruminating, ime.  SO much clarity and choice there.

I'm glad you made a new friend on the beach trip, ((Hops.))

Lighters

[Hopalong]

Thanks, (((((Lighter))))).

It does feel like big progress.

One mistake I make with men is when they say something, you know -- using words -- I tend to take what they've said very literally.

He'd said "I certainly would like to share friendship" and all I heard was "certainly." It's just a polite phrase, looking back. But it zipped right into the what I wanted to hear category.

I am relieved that it got unearthed pretty fast, for me. Delusions disengaged.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

And some more...finishing up the pondering.
I'm relieved that the obvious eventually can get through my skull.

It was weird to me (but likely just a polite impulse to him) for him to state so definitely that he would call me after a trip to NYC ("at least a week") and then just never did. After my call and his response, it occurred to me that in this direction hurt would surely lie. After all, he was in town. Even without a meet scheduled for after his busy period -- he could have made a 5-minute call. (And I have the sense that being frantically busy is protective for him -- a grief thing and understandable.)

In a literal sense, I'm not quite as impressed with his relational ethics as I was. But I also think my own fantasies set me up and lead to expectations that are not right or realistic. It feels like a relief but in an unhealthy, temporary way, to judge him. He's not a creep, but seems unaware of (if not indifferent to) his impact in a way I got too used to rationalizing away with M. Perhaps M was my "medievalist" vaccine? LOL. But I was in an actual relationship with M, never with the Scot.

On the other hand (stepping back from blaming) -- I looked back at my messages to the Scot. SO accomodating, SO absent of any needs or preferences expressed at all. Stuff like: I'd value becoming your friend regardless, you're such an interesting person...and even ended one "Your pace, your pleasure" (as though I had no desire for more assurance about proceeding) in an effort to not scare him. Disregarding my truths: vulnerability and need to check in for clarity all the way.

And then I give a call after six weeks of nothing, he offers a rushed coffee and I have the options: 1) Go all deluded and Glenn Closey and whale on that deceased horse, or 2) re-embrace the mantra I came up with years ago in desperation over my inability to let go of an unavailable lover during a very hard/lonely period: Reality is my friend.

It really is.

Loneliness is a reality I'm struggling with also right now, but I've taken some active steps about that too. Joining a Zoom group that meets weekly via church and got a sweet welcoming message from one man who said the group has become for him like family, and was welcomed by two other people too. Already have two friends in it, a married couple I like a lot.

I Zoom with my T today and it'll be good to sum it up for her. Anxiety and loneliness have destabilized me and sapped my optimism lately. But I know I can push back.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

My T is more perceptive than I credit her for.

Really good session. She said, "You need a witness." And that I was doing deep work (I often express self-consciousness about talking so much and rambling, ADD style). She said my narratives aren't wordsmoke but represent a deep effort to understand what happens.

That was reassuring. Slowly, working with this T has evolved into a safe space. She never shames or judges and has been extremely patient adapting to my anxious style (depending on what's happening). I told her about my circadian plus anxiety patterns, and she said she hadn't fully understood that before. Daylight good, twilight the anxiety climbs. And its connection to how long I've gone without being in human contact. (How quickly it's stanched when I do have some.)

Something Lighter said and another thing I read today talked about containing some of the anxiety by exiting my own head, which is the same as not ruminating.

I think that's what thinking about other people or doing other things does. I absolutely must schedule more of that. To spend the winter feeding my anxiety by staying in my own head would be....STOOPID.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hi, Hops:

I'm so glad you're feeling supported and safe with your T.  Esp with cold months coming up🥶

Lighter

[Phyll]

Dear Hops,
WOW.  So very clear.  I am amazed at how you looked at your needs and desires without judging the Scot.  Great work! 

Once upon a time (before on-line dating was big) I signed up for this expensive dating service.  It was very disappointing.  I called it "dating school" because I realized I only knew how to be taken hostage (still struggle with that).  I decided I had enough people in my life who really love me, that I did not have time for people who didn't.  Unfortunately, I think that set me up for the relationship with the narc I find myself in.  I expected too much and believed the unreality.

I find reading your posts and following your thought process towards this dating process very helpful in clearing my view. Thank you for sharing it here.

I am sorry you are experiencing loneliness.  I think there is a lot of that going around right now with this pandemic.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Phyll. That was an amazing image: only knowing how to be taken hostage. I love the power of it but am very sorry it's so long felt that way for you. Damn.

I'm doing much better. One key thing has been to arrange for some kind of contact with a human every day. Could be Zoom, or a call, or a visit. I really need to do that and when I do, it halts my slide.

The Scot responded "alarm bells are ringing" (to my message about I would like this and that). I felt instant guilt (oh how controlling I was) and then thought: well, maybe any assertive woman stating preferences would be "alarming." It was interesting that he used lots of ambivalent language, still. Words he closed with included "maybe" "in due time" and "for now" and stuff like that.

I knew the last thing I needed was no closure. He might be fine with endless ambivalence but I'm not -- not without harming my own peace. I replied a last time with emotional truth (which I knew would scare him allllll the way away, and am fine with). I said I'd felt hurt that he didn't call as he said he would simply because I'd believed him. And was slow to realize he didn't mean it. I invest time in friendship, but if he only wants quick and casual, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not what I'm looking for. And that I've learned not to daydream about "maybes." In the end, we were "two stubborn lonesome old farts who can't compromise on how to get together" and, imo, both lost. Then wished him well, genuinely. And that's that.

It is too bad, but I'm relieved. I appreciate and have compassion for his fears and defenses, but I'm never again going to pursue anybody who's not reciprocating interest, and not with vague language I could hook myself with if not super careful. I know my weaknesses and I'm too old. My own comfort may get mellower and I may be less edgy about these things in time...but I'm not there yet. Might as well just be honest and damn the torpedoes. Beam me up, Scottie, I'm outta there.

For an interesting diversion, my first love is coming by later. He lives far away but comes to the area every December to go hunting near his family's old place. We've had dinner at this time of year several times -- last time he called I was with M and felt uncomfortable about it so declined. But now I'm not and I'll be happy to see him. Friends ONLY (he's married) but we do have tender feelings for each other and nostalgia we share. He's handsome as ever and it does my heart good to see him.

We have little in common and wouldn't make an appropriate pairing now even if he were single, but I loved him once with all my heart and vice versa and it's a nice reminder. (After the last visit he had "run away with me" fantasies but I thought: hmmmm, move to Wyoming and help you open a gun business? Cough. LOL.)

Every single human relationship is a chance to learn and to find some light even when you must turn away from someone, I think. I'm feeling better. Life will present more people, or pooches or heck, birds to love.

hugs,
Hops