Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 156187 times)

CB123

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #330 on: January 12, 2020, 10:48:48 AM »
Hops,

I hadnt realized that the issue of financial security was part of the equation. I do understand, truly I do. That was a large consideration in my marriage as well, so I get it. I stayed much longer than I would have because of finances, and of course the kids.

I'm wishing you the very best and I hope you understand my concern is well meant, however clumsily I might express it, dear friend.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #331 on: January 13, 2020, 02:20:53 AM »
Hops, I just thought I'd mention something I've discovered as I've been researching communes for myself and son :)

In the UK, there are ever increasing numbers of people setting up, or becoming part of, housing co-operatives.  Instead of all living together in a shared house, people are either buying land to build multiple properties on, or they're buying already existing homes, perhaps several in the same street or on the same housing estate.  Another thing some are doing is buying a large property and then converting it into flats or small houses.  The properties are then either sold or rented out, the benefit being you get your own space and live your own life, but you are part of a community that literally lives only steps away, so it's easy for people to get together, help each other out and to share costs for things like bulk buying food, or sharing a veg patch or something like that.  Car share is pretty popular in these sorts of places as well.

I think the point of setting it up as a co-operative is something to do with the way it all works legally (it means that people can't sell their house to a developer who wants to build fifteen houses in the back garden or something like that).

Anyway, the only reason I mention it is in case it might be worth you doing a bit of research at some point to see if similar sorts of set ups exist in the States, so that you might have an option between 'relationship' and 'poor and alone'.  I do understand your concerns exactly - I have exactly the same worries about myself and son.  And unlike you, I have already given up hope of meeting someone who might change that situation for me :) I might work on that at a later date :)  But anyway, I thought I'd mention it as you get some of the perks of being part of a like minded community without having to keep washing other people's plates whenever you want a sandwich or having to move into a retirement village :)

Hope you are readjusting to being home okay and catching up on sleep and Pooch cuddles :)

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #332 on: January 14, 2020, 01:36:17 AM »
Quote
"Make me feel good" seems to be the implied message. Or "why are you not impressed with my awesomeness?" and "How dare you have a different perception, opinion or feeling than I do?"

Thanks, Amber. I think the first two quotes are pretty apt, for that jungle week when he just let loose with ego, insecurity and obsession with his own feelings...about Costa Rica, the house as symbolic of it all for him, his accomplishment in designing and building it, blah and blah. There's lots of loss and dislocation and unrootedness that it's all about. The third thing doesn't apply really, because fundamentally M does respect me. My mind.

What happened today was that the T was brilliantly present and observant as ever, and stopped M every time he'd either interrupt or contradict something I'd just said. He spelled out to M his habit of eloquently replying to me, Oh yes, I understand this, but...or however...and then "rewriting" what I said to fit his own narrative. (How wonderful our relationship is, how much he loves me, etc.) He also talks a lot saying "we this" and "we that" and the T stopped that too.

It was very perceptive and really kind of remarkable. The thing that makes me feel better is that M is genuinely humble and receptive in therapy. We even talked about an aborted intimate encounter when I felt completely unheard in a way that made me just give up. Anyway, I held nothing back. I described every detail of the experience from my perspective and it was a huge relief to do that with the counselor. M was distressed to hear it but he heard it. More significantly, I described exactly how I'd felt at the jungle house and during different times during the trip. M had written me an email saying, "The last 17 days were completely wonderful." It struck me as a wonderful condensation of the pattern and the T totally got it. I said there were 4 or 5 days of it that were the opposite of wonderful to me, how vulnerable and isolated I felt and how much I'd disliked M at the time for being so self absorbed.

I literally think when M is almost incantatorily talking nonstop (his form of self soothing, I think), he actually has no idea about my distress level. He's not trying to be cruel but doesn't realize how he's not making an empathic connection, but staying cerebral. The T got it too but didn't blame or criticize M; he's just working to help him see it. He advised him his professoritis is not working for him and that for him to get the commitment he wants from me, he is going to have to be the student, not the teacher. M agreed with him, agreed with all of it.

We are both colossally impressed with the T, and M is not aggressive or defensive at all in the sessions. He seems hugely motivated to make it work. I'm not saying I assume or am positive it will, just that M's attitude in therapy is amazingly open and receptive, in my view. (I've been in therapy with an ex who made it very obvious that he had contempt for both me and T, and we divorced. M's behavior is the opposite.)

M also pointed out that except for a couple of months after his divorce, he's never been in therapy before and I'm "way ahead of him." I thought that was fair (I've spent decades in therapy) and the T said, all the more reason you need to be listening to her. He also described me to M as being very concerned with how others are feeling and that he wanted me to be more responsive in the moment when M goes into his obliviousness.

All in all, it was a huge relief to have the T express in front of M that he clearly got how vulnerable I was feeling during the trip, and he'd ask M, did you notice how she was feeling in this moment or that one? And M's responses showed M himself that he had missed it. That was validating.

I don't think it's malice or hidden horrors. I just think he's lived in his brain for a very long time, and in different cultures from me, and with different kinds of women (never an American), and has an oversized ego (insecurity) and he says over and over that I am different from any woman he's ever known, etc etc. He enumerates why and he really means it. But, his lists of compliments don't fix things for me --I want empathy, not a list of assets, and the T totally gets this. Whew.

And...we do love each other. I don't doubt his sincerity, at all. If he continues with me in this process, I think it's worth it for both of us, no matter what the final outcome is. He seems deeply committed to it and also seems to have huge respect for the T. I've never seen him react to another man that way, have only seen him with his peers/academic colleagues, when they're jousting.

All in all, I feel better. I see the cardiologist tomorrow and am anxious about that, but if it's a reassuring visit I know I'll be feeling way better this time tomorrow night.

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #333 on: January 14, 2020, 01:45:04 AM »
((((CB))))
Of course I know your concern is well meant! Sweet woman.
And it's not misplaced, either. I am vigilant about what's happening and holding nothing back in the T sessions, and intend to be more open with M as well.

I don't know what will happen but if I need to end it at some point, I believe I'll be able to. Old age alone or broke does scare me but I'm way better off than many people and my fears may be bigger than they need to be. The feelings are real about that, but I earn enough social security to survive as long as I can function independently. I'm just haunted by abandoned oldsters in nursing homes and so forth. Still, I will not let financial security lull me into a bad marriage. Fate worse than I don't know what.

And M knows I'm not marrying him unless therapy really moves us into a balanced and healthy place. I don't want to pre-judge what he's capable of in therapy, because he's actually got an amazing mind and willing heart. He's deficient in EQ, but I don't think it's fair to rule out that he could grow as much as anybody. His motivation seems real and profound and his behavior reflects it. Rather than coming out of a session like today's mad at me or defensive, he's more tender than ever. He genuinely wants it to work.

There's a lot of good in him. A few pink flags I can live with but I will confront myself if I see red ones. The man's lived in a bubble for a long time but he seems desperate to break out of it.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #334 on: January 14, 2020, 01:51:58 AM »
(((((Tupp))))) -- We're on the same page!

One persistent interest of mine for years has been aging issues, including co-housing, shared housing, etc. I know a good deal about it. Unfortunately the only cohousing communities here (there are two) are too expensive for me. This area's very pricey even for that.

When I was still hoping to inherit my mother's big house one of my plans was to get two or three female friend roommates and create our own co-house for old age, pooling resources etc. But that didn't work out because of my brother (and the fact that my friends have their own plans and generally are better off). I checked out the other two as well. Then as I've talked about a lot here, I've helped elderly folks in independent apartments in old-age developments, and learned what they pay each month. Out of my reach.

But. There's a new nonprofit here I've begun to volunteer for that is based on healthy people (mostly in 60s or 70s) doing for free for frail elders exactly the kind of thing I've done for pay. Then, one day, if you need similar help so you can age in your home as long as possible, you can turn to this network for chores, drivers, shopping help etc -- at no charge. It's a brilliant concept that's already underway in some cities and I'm looking forward to working on it here.

That does not resolve anything medical or if you're no longer mobile ... but it's still a good step. And I have an interview for an elderly couple next week so I can start doing some PT elder-help paid work again, which I've taken a break from for many months now, since the old gent died and the two women became too ill for me to help. It'll do me good to work again, independence wise.

Hugs
Hops
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 01:57:11 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #335 on: January 14, 2020, 10:22:47 AM »
I'm so glad the T appointment went well, Hops.  I was hoping it would.

Lighter


Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #336 on: January 14, 2020, 11:36:28 AM »
(((((Tupp))))) -- We're on the same page!

One persistent interest of mine for years has been aging issues, including co-housing, shared housing, etc. I know a good deal about it. Unfortunately the only cohousing communities here (there are two) are too expensive for me. This area's very pricey even for that.

When I was still hoping to inherit my mother's big house one of my plans was to get two or three female friend roommates and create our own co-house for old age, pooling resources etc. But that didn't work out because of my brother (and the fact that my friends have their own plans and generally are better off). I checked out the other two as well. Then as I've talked about a lot here, I've helped elderly folks in independent apartments in old-age developments, and learned what they pay each month. Out of my reach.

But. There's a new nonprofit here I've begun to volunteer for that is based on healthy people (mostly in 60s or 70s) doing for free for frail elders exactly the kind of thing I've done for pay. Then, one day, if you need similar help so you can age in your home as long as possible, you can turn to this network for chores, drivers, shopping help etc -- at no charge. It's a brilliant concept that's already underway in some cities and I'm looking forward to working on it here.

That does not resolve anything medical or if you're no longer mobile ... but it's still a good step. And I have an interview for an elderly couple next week so I can start doing some PT elder-help paid work again, which I've taken a break from for many months now, since the old gent died and the two women became too ill for me to help. It'll do me good to work again, independence wise.

Hugs
Hops

I'm so glad, Hops, both about the paid work and the not for profit group; that sounds like a brilliant idea and I know for me just knowing there is 'someone' I can call is a big help, even if I don't need to call them.  I think the sense of aloneness is so hard to cope with, even if you don't actually need someone at the time.  I think having a network that people can call on is a great idea.

Your T does sound brilliant and I'm really happy that M is so engaged with the process and willing to work through things.  Hopefully he'll be able to pace himself a bit better so he doesn't whirl off into these spirals where he seems to lose contact with the rest of the world :)  I'm really glad you had an appointment quite quickly and that you've had your say!  It's great that it's all going so well in that regard.  I hope the cardio thing goes well tomorrow and gives you some reassurance xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #337 on: January 30, 2020, 06:36:10 PM »
Thanks much, ((((Tupp)))).
The joint T sessions continue to go astonishingly well. I don't know if I'm testing the limits, but I have found myself both bold and extremely assertive (with zero animus) in these sessions...and observe both that the T "gets" me every time (we often exchange looks while M holds forth and I understand in the moment with no doubt that he understands) and that he consistently redirects M to what just happened (or didn't). It's kind of an exciting process and gives me lots of comfort and hope. It's kind of wonderful to have a T noticing my facial expressions and trusting they mean something.

Perhaps I'll say yes to M's next proposal with the contingency that he agrees to stay in or re-enter therapy with me any time I need it!

Meanwhile, I'm feeling calmer and more confident in the relationship with M. We went through another intense, kind of testing experience just now, that ended up with me feeling that I do know how to interact with him as part of a couple.

An endearing and delightful British scholar just arrived (like two weeks ago) for a semester in M's department as a visiting distinguished professor. I picked up him and his wife to take them to a dinner party at M's almost a week ago, and we bonded instantly over politics. The evening was lovely (they all spoke English the whole night which was a pleasure for me). And then I took them home, and afterward, he sent M and me a bunch of hysterical British satire videos about the current US president. It was fun and I was looking forward to getting to know him (and his sweet wife, A) over the next six months.

Two days ago he suddenly died of a heart attack at 4am. M left me messages and I went over and comforted her, took her on a long walk to a beautiful meadow near his place, and joined another woman comforting her throughout the evening. M was so grateful and appreciative of this and we both were deeply affected by her loss. She was beside herself (they'd been married 45 years). He dealt with all the practical complexities (except for me asking my lawyer how to reassure her about cremation even though his 20-year-old will, done in the U.K., expressed his desire to be buried)...and I was just support. But the whole thing has brought us even closer. Talking about deeper and more meaningful issues.

Because of this, I've been re-thinking my recent sense that I didn't want to take the "next trip" with him...to California again in March, for a long week with the kids/grandkids (shared rented house on the beach in Santa Barbara). Anyway, I was surprised to realize that after thinking I DON"T want to go anywhere again soon with him, I feel connected in a way that makes me more likely to want to go. The deadline (for him to cancel my ticket) is this Sunday, and I may surprise him by saying Yes.

All in all, I'd say we're in better shape than I thought. I weirdly feel more connected to him and also more connected to my desire to attend to my own life. Perhaps we'll figure out the balance.

Optimistically,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #338 on: January 31, 2020, 05:35:47 AM »
Oh, Hops, I'm so sorry to read of that nice man's sudden passing, and how awful for his wife to lose him so suddenly like that.  I'm glad that you and M were there for her to support her both practically and emotionally, what an awful situation for all of you.

I am heartened to read that the therapy is going well and that this most recent event has made you feel closer to M.  I do think you get to see the real heart of people during a crisis and the fact that he stepped up to organise things and make sure the poor lady was okay is a good testament to his good heart, I think.  I feel the same about his continued commitment to therapy and I do feel that if he were putting on an act or a kind of 'I'll do this to keep her quiet' approach to it the cracks would be showing by now, but they aren't.  He seems sincere in his desire to be with you, and committed to working on himself to make that happen.  I think that's really encouraging and if you feel like this trip would be a good experience then go for it.  I like the fact that you feel you can change your mind and decide what to do when it suits you, rather than doing what suits everyone else.  I was really glad to read your post - there was so much in it that was positive, despite the fact there was such an unexpected bereavement in amongst it.

I am sorry for the poor chap and his wife but glad you were able to be there for her xx

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #339 on: January 31, 2020, 10:54:50 AM »
So that's where you've been. 

(((Hops))) I'm so sorry you lost a new friend but glad you were able to comfort his wife. 

These things shift perspective, IME.  Making the most of the time we have left, knowing it might end tomorrow is a good thing.

Lighter

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #340 on: January 31, 2020, 12:53:00 PM »
OH MY Hops. I'm glad you were able to be with your new friend during what is surely a time complicated by being away from home. I'd think that helped more than you will ever know.

Leads me to suggest perhaps it would be a good idea to carry those documents in digital format with you, when traveling out of the country. A thumb drive is small enough to get added to a jewelry pouch.

(((((Hops)))))
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #341 on: February 04, 2020, 10:42:38 AM »
Great suggestion, Amber! Thanks.

I decided to skip the week-in-California with a houseful of kids and grandkids and am glad I am. He'll be out there first for a week for a lecture, then back for a week, then back out for their traditional boys' birthday week (the sons were born on the same day years apart). And M LOVES traditions. So I'll get to miss him for a week (while hopefully focusing on my own stuff), enjoy him being back for a week (we do happy reunions well), and enjoy another break after! I think it'll be a good thing for perspective. We still have a trip to Spain planned for April but agreed I could wait to commit until a month before departure, so he could get tickets refunded. I may ask him to just change it so we're not driving so much; simplify it to a week in one place and a week in another, instead of driving for hours every day to cover so much ground. Or I may just decide this isn't the year for so much travel for me.

Things are generally going a lot better, largely due to the T. M is listening, or trying strenuously to, and the T's observations really help. He told M yesterday that his 50-year habit of commenting is what he's been most rewarded for in his life, and because T has worked with many brilliant people in this university community, he's observed that M's issues with not dominating and struggling to listen are common among academics. He said, "You have rewarded all your life for what you say, but not for what you hear."

I thought that was brilliant. The other thing is I go in there and just unload in great detail about what I worry or have difficulty about with M, and how various behaviors of his (nonstop talk, not allowing silences, racing mind) affect me. And M really listens then, though one can see him struggle not to be composing his reply. The other thing I value a lot about what we're doing together is that he has never once given me any resentment or blowback about anything I bring up in T, no matter how bluntly. Sometimes he worries that I don't understand how much he loves me, and that his deep intention toward me is 100% and all that. But he also told me he knows that what I'm doing is trying to resolve anxieties I have about relationships and that he supports the process completely. I find that remarkable and reassuring.

The T also said to him, "When you listen to Hops, I notice that your eyes are busy moving all around." I mentioned that I'd brought up lack of eye contact early in our relationship. I think this T is picking up on some ADHD stuff and also the real impact for M of having an overactive mind. In scholarship and his career, it's been incredible. In relationship, it can present obstacles to intimacy.

Despite all that, I am feeling better about him. And closer to a sense that we really might make it long term.

One step at a time. One day at a time. We had a lovely dinner to celebrate the first anniversary of the day we met. He came with roses. Not hard to enjoy roses!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #342 on: February 04, 2020, 11:44:56 AM »
Big smilie faces and hugs Hops.

Sounds like you're both finding a way forward.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #343 on: February 04, 2020, 06:02:29 PM »
Hops:

It sounds like things are going along pretty well. I'm still loving your T.  Rewarded for what M says, not what he hears.... that makes sense.  I hope it helps M SEE. 

 You chose to skip the Cali trip... I think that was wise, particularly while you guys sort communication styles and habits.   

I'm going back a bit, but wonder what M criticized you about in the jungle, if not things like what you bring up in T sessions.  Were they logical things, or were they illogical?  You don't have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable.  I noticed you seem to be guarding the relationship a bit more.... which I see as positive for the relationship. 

Just an observation and not necessarily reality. 

Happy anniversary, Hops!  I love sticking my nose into roses..... smelling them.. feeling their cool soft petals on my face.

Lighter 


Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #344 on: February 04, 2020, 10:33:27 PM »
I'd say illogical, Lighter. He was reacting to emotional pressures he was feeling too.
I've come to understand a lot more about him since being with his family, seeing the intense load of expectations he's been under his whole life (and rebelled from), seeing the deep devotion and sense of duty he has to so many relatives, and seeing his inner conflict because he's more at home here (and in Europe) now, than there.

I think CR was destabilizing for him, and he was trying to defend an identity that's actually been shaken loose. But he couldn't articulate that at the time, and I was just struggling.

It sure as heck was destabilizing for me. A hard trip but a very valuable one. He seems so relieved that the condo in San Jose is gone, like one more tentacle has let him go. I look forward, if all goes well, to returning with him sometime. For a week, not three. And in a comfortable hotel instead of in two homes that were about his past and a whole different dream, now ended. He's now mentioned maybe selling the jungle house too. He told me today after his exercise class that he just wants to focus more on taking care of himself, enjoying simpler things, and taking care of me.

I can't even recall the exact things he picked at me about at the jungle house. And at this point, I'm not really worried about it any more. We've made such huge progress since. And, since one of your posts, I remember I always have a choice.

He's a good man. And he's working hard at learning some very very new material about the self. I'm more relaxed around him than I've been yet, because we're communicating better. And I do sense he's really looking inside in a way he never has before. We'll see how it goes....

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."