Relationship/s

[Twoapenny]

It's all a continuum, isn't it?  I used to have a friend, nice lady, but talking to her was exhausting because I wouldn't even be half way through my sentence when she'd be jumping in, either telling me what to do (if it were a problem) or starting in with a similar story of her own.  She literally didn't seem to be able to wait until I'd finished speaking before she spoke and as a result the conversations were very jarred - I'd say my half sentence, she'd jump in ("you need to call x department about that"), I'd say, "yes, I've called x department and they said......." and again before I'd finished speaking she'd jump in to tell me what they should have said and we just never got anywhere.  It's tiring.  It's interesting that it's a physical movement for him to jump in and that you can actually see that happening.

There is another aspect of autism called masking (I'm just chucking these things in as food for thought, not to say I think this applies to M or that you should ignore anything he's doing).  Some autistics can cover the fact they don't pick up on the social cues, facial expressions, turn taking in conversations and so on because they can mimic other people's actions (I think I've done it most of my life).  And it's exhausting and can lead to meltdowns, depression, burn out and so on.

I think, in the nicest way, that whether M's problematic aspects are due to some neurology that he has no control over or not, the key thing is what you are happy with.  Someone I know is with a man who drives her mad and she wanted him assessed for autism because she said if he is autistic she'd be able to tolerate him better.  I just found the idea of 'tolerating' your life partner the sadness thing I'd ever heard.  Putting up with some bad habits, yes, we've all got those, but 'tolerating' being the best she could hope for was heartbreaking to hear.

And slightly on that note - I did want to ask a question just because I noticed you said that you "made the choice to not even try to tell stories of my own".  I mean this question in a kind way, Hopsie, but did you not want to tell stories or was it just to difficult or exhausting to try to get yourself into the conversation? xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hmmmm. Possibly irrelevant thought:

due to the asyncronous nature of texting, email, posting online - it doesn't matter if one waits their turn to speak or not. One can simply get things off their minds.

Of course, even in this communication environment - misunderstandings and lack of context occurs because people don't wait their turn (or read everything, maybe more than once to understand) before posting.

Just a fleeting thought that may or may not apply.

[Hopalong]

This is an interesting commentary, dunno why I didn't dig in. Thanks to you both.

At one point I found that emailing (at its peak) was a big danger zone for me, in relationships. It still is. For example, I recently explained I needed to withdraw from communication, email or phone, for a day to think and write and M still couldn't resist punching through with an email and a pretext--so I called him on it very gently, in T. He had replied "Understood" but later poked the boundary anyway (in a very minor way compared to how he used to). After that all passed we were having dinner last night and he says, "I think you're *catatonic sometimes". I later wrote him (email!) that that word landed wrong, and he wrote back the classic non-apology apology: "I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way, it was hyperbole of course" which by using blaming language rendered it a non-apology. So I've just written him back to explain that.

All to say, it would have been better to tell him how I felt in person because email often makes conflict or disagreement creepy. Or makes it escalate. Sometimes in certain moods or about certain subjects for me, the computer feels radioactive.

It's not a big fight or anything. Just noticing... M does have a difficult time apologizing. When I am around someone who can simply and sincerely say, I'm sorry, I know I'm with someone who's does real interior growth and gets it. People who can't often are shame-driven but may not know it.

*He was referring to a long explanation I'd given, before my retreat and again in T, about why I need those times sometimes, to get into a deep stillness/silence to think or write. The deeper layer, I think, is that it triggers his abandonment stuff and he doesn't really want to focus there.

hugs
Hops

[Meh]

due to the asyncronous nature of texting, email, posting online - it doesn't matter if one waits their turn to speak or not. One can simply get things off their minds.

I don't wait my turn when on Skype with or text with others, one never knows if a person will be gone for 5 minutes or away for 30 minutes, time can seem irrelevant though I would say some people actually try to have conversations on chat. Then again some people tend to do it out of boredom and I'm not sure if that is always the best way to interact with people. But maybe boredom is just a bad word for down-time.

[Meh]

Wow Catatonic sometimes is a strong statement. I guess he is frustrated and needs more attention.

[Hopalong]

I think he'd be happy with 24/7 attention, unless he's scholaring.
I ain't giving it.

We had a pretty calm talk about it, and I got to explain there were two sides to why that remark stung. One is that the "deep retreat" I can get into has two sides that feel vulnerable;

Side One: It is the kind of near-trance stillness that sometimes produces my best writing and thus I feel very protective of it. Always had that need, always will. Margaret Atwood says: There's no such thing as writer's block, there are interruptions from other people.

Side Two: It is also on the surface just the same stillness as my depressive withdrawal into non-functional sedentaritude. I don't need a highly-executive personality yapping around my ankles with TIPS on ADD or such, I'm working on it in therapy.

And sometimes I can't tell the difference. But I'm glad he heard me out last night and seemed to be respectful of me. I was defending my important boundaries but without hostility (or sarcasm, like here...).

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I am just coming up for air Hops. Buck left yesterday and then I spent all day with Hol in hospital; she fell - onto one of the rocks around here and broke 4 ribs. Up late last night for required me time - and that retreat you speak of.

I just wanted to share how I frame my own version of the "retreat". Maybe there's something useful in it?

Side one - is well-known to me. It's my painter's trance; where I'm able to become "one with the void"; enter the zone. It's a necessary balance point for me - because of how busy my mind is.

Side two - is necessary for me, because I have such "melty, fusible" physical perceptions and it's very very easy to establish a sort of Vulcan MindMeld in situations with others - on those non-verbal levels. Problem IS, of course, the inescapable imposition of my own interpretation on others. I usually have to pull back, re-establish my skin location and ordinary "personal space" (or distancing)... and then engage brain & mouth to query the other person about the accuracy or validity of my other perceptions. Otherwise I'm PRESUMING and ASSUMING way too much.

I'm told this is a problem for some empaths - not that I claim that label. Definitely have that tendency and some aptitude. But I'm more like a loose cannon that depends on luck and synchronicity... than any kind of intentional, directed force.

Anyhoo... that's my framework for what sounds similar. Chuck it, ponder... whatever.
Hugs. I guess there's always more dance steps to learn. 

[Hopalong]

Amber, thank you.
It was so comforting to read your depiction of the artist's necessary trance (quite like a poet's), and its flip side...which is really just an individual PERSON's necessary solitude periods. You get it, so well.

Makes me mindful to recognize that underneath it all, I am also a weird kind of introvert. Just another kind of person who needs to tend to her separate self.

I'll respond about Hol's injuries (!!!!!!!) over on Farm Life.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Well, there's a new how-de-do. I think it could bring us closer or the opposite, and am not too worried about the result. My part is my work, my awareness. His is his.

So....I have gradually gotten increasingly frustrated about M's food obsession. In brief, it's as though obsessive and frequent talking about food (what he will cook, what will be in it, when he'll order ingredients and from which store, what time he'll start the dish, etc -- followed by a deeee-tailed recitation of the preparation once I'm there and a slow plodding repeat of all the steps/ingredients/sources, etc during the meal--while he groans in pleasure as he eats--.... and it's become fossilized). So I recently told him something I'd love a lot would be if the next time I come to dinner he not email me about the food or the cooking during the day, and not tell me anything, and just let me enjoy the surprise meal when I'm there, when I'd be delighted to hear all about it.

He goes, "Understood! XXXXOOOO." Then that afternoon, he sends another email: I did this, and that and got the other thing done! And now I'm ready to COOK!! (It's as though no matter what boundary I ask for, he's going to poke it, often subtly. So I'm learning not to trust him when he says Yes, Understood, or similar.)

Long (and riiiiidiculous) story shorter -- I've also told him I'm avoiding bread and white flour right now (gained weight). But he keeps setting bread on my plate or adding croutons to salads (he still occasionally tries to pour me more wine despite all THAT discussion). Anyway, went over for dinner and the MOMENT I came in the door he launched into his obsession like a fancy waiter: "This is a thick sort of soup, Hops..." and I wanted to screeeeeam. I hadn't even had time to set down my bag.

And then, perched as I always am at the counter to chat and listen while he "narrates" the meal...(but I was willing)...I look at my bowl and....(drumroll!).... there are croutons in the bottom. Reflexively, without thinking (I thought he was about to pour the hot liquid in) -- I reached over and snatched them out of the bowl and put them on the counter. BUUUUUT....they're not croutons. They're lovely little cubes of baked tofu. Oops! And M is (justifiably) pissed! It was a rude impulsive move on my part and when he said, "I'm annoyed!" I thought, bravo! Then he goes on to say in detail what I should have done instead: inquired, confirmed what they were, (or IF croutons, reminded him), etc. Like a grownup. And I completely agreed, recognized what I'd done wrong and why it was a rude and inappropriate move, and apologized. About three times.

Finally during dinner I said M, I've agreed and apologized repeatedly but you're not letting it go....can you let it go now? He goes, Of course, it's over and done. Two minutes later he's eating and says, Oh I just got another mouthful of ha-ha ... crouton! Does that a couple times.

Then after dinner when we go to sit down and converse...he starts up with a mini-lecture on what's wrong with my character because I did that move, and my blood begins to simmer, and by the time he gets to "You're petulant" I, errrr, blew up.
"If there's one thing I am NOT it's petulant! I am honest and direct and I own my mistakes and am accountable, and I am capable of genuinely apologizing and I am absolutely NOT PETULANT!" And then I announced I still loved him but had to leave because I needed to cool off. Retrieved Pooch and left.

(What all that was, was what I WISH I'd been able to do in his jungle house when he did a similar--but more scathing--lecture about my defects after I'd pissed him off, when I didn't speak the language and had no way of just leaving, which I wanted to do. Rang the same bell.) Only two times this has happened.

Then once home I emailed him a calm, mature explanation of agreeing with him entirely that my gesture had been impulsive inappropriate and rude, that his annoyance was justified, but that I'd left because he wouldn't let it go and then had escalated into negative characterizations about who I am, etc.

He wrote back late that night: It's really okay, was just unexpected and unexplained.

So now my goal is to unload all this, without any anger, in therapy with him, to say that I'm worried about the food obsession and its effect on us, and I'm worried that when he says "It's okay" or "Happy to respect your request" but then doesn't...and how that impacts my dreaming about a lifelong commitment and how I manage my own frustrations better and don't get angry when if I'd said how I felt all along it'd be less intense. (All true. T thinks I need to speak up, and regularly.)

There we go. Sturm und drang...and All About Croutons. Exhausting. But funny in a way.

hugs and thanks for your patience!
Hops

[Twoapenny]

What CB said   I have to say, though, - and I freely admit not being a foodie or being much into manners or proper ways of doing things - I wouldn't consider someone taking something out of their bowl (especially if it was because they thought it was something else) wrong, rude or inappropriate.  It just wouldn't register for me.  Seems like a very small thing to get upset about, with the caveat that I don't get 'foodie' stuff so maybe that's why it seems less of an issue for me.

I have a got a couple of friends who I love to bits but they are very foodie and, like M, will talk a lot about planning, prepping, shopping for ingredients, how it was all put together, how to serve it and so on.  I find it tiring to listen to.  I don't particularly enjoy food - I see it as something I need to do.  Things I really like are unhealthy so I try not to eat them too much.  I hugely appreciate someone else cooking for me - the kindness of it is the thing I love - but I'm just as happy if someone bungs a pizza in the oven or turns up with a takeaway.  It's the action of doing it that I love rather than the food itself.  I just don't find it interesting.  I think my palette is probably very unrefined.

Do you think he's got bigger stuff he wants to say, Hops, but doesn't feel that he can?  Or even know he wants to, really?  I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a bit.  There just seems to be a pattern (from the things you post) of him saying what he's supposed to rather than doing what he's supposed to (or what you ask him to, I suppose is more accurate).  And almost like he's pleased when you get something 'wrong' because it gives him a chance to critique you?  I don't really know how to explain it.  I just feel like when I read about 'crouton gate' it seems like there is something bigger than croutons?  I may have been in lockdown too long and be seeing things that aren't there.  Whatever it is, I hope you are able to get things sorted out.  And obviously ignore all of this if it's nonsense, I think I'm spending too much time talking to the cat xx

[Hopalong]

CB, your response sobered me, in a good way. You showed a lot of compassion for M. Cooking and food-obsessing is a big part of his "love language." He's said so: "This is how I show love for the people I love." So the struggle to balance appreciation and gratitude (this generous man is feeding me great meals!) with my inner aversion to the volume of attention he pays to it (and insists I pay in return) is difficult. I feel like such an ingrate.

The truth is, I have a deep recoil at times. It's not the topic but his obsessiveness around it that gets to me. My reaction isn't rational, it's visceral. I think on a deep dive I'd find it has something to do with my father. He was the main cook and also clearly had some version of OCD as M seems to as well. So even though I was desperate to help, all I could ever do was sit and watch Dad. I adored him and wanted to be part of it. M is similar in the kitchen, in that he has total control of absolutely everything that's happening, and no matter how often I ask, he wants to orchestrate every single step. One difference is that my Dad never lectured, narrated, or held forth aloud about every single aspect of his cooking, as M does. So even though it was frustrating not to be allowed to participate, I still was happy to be around my Dad.

It reminds me of M's "forced teaching" thing I described here at one point. I'd like to just enjoy a meal, ask a few appreciative questions about it and enjoy learning a bit. But not the entire Julia Child step-by-step recreation of every single thing that went into it. M's style of teaching is to go through each conceivable detail at microscopic level. "And then at 2:00 I took out a medium bowl and placed the whatever in it, to marinate in a blend of A and B and C and D and E...." So if I ask, what's that lovely XX?, I just get Too Much Answer. I also feel that my role is to clap. It's just hard. Doesn't mean it should be, but it builds up.

It's a weird response and I'm going to work on it. If I'm going to eat both greedily and gratefully at his house, I do think I should find a way to just accept that all the narration is the price of admission. The other day, when it started the second I stepped into the house (on a day when I'd asked for less of it), I think I couldn't handle it. I was on edge instantly, realizing nothing could really change.

Tupp, you're right. If I'd spoken up (a theme I have to work on) in a calm way, nothing would have happened. I actually *snatched* them out of the bowl, and suddenly. I think that's what upset him. There was no grace involved. He is very formal and fixates on the sort of ballet involved. Every meal is a production, with an audience. I understand it but find it the opposite of relaxing sometimes.

CB, you were also completely on target about the feeling of needing to protect my food and drink preferences because he often doesn't. Just subtly pushes things on me. He has a rigid sense of how each dish should be and it seems to cause him pain when I want to skip bread, refuse wine auto-refills, or do my own salad dressing because I prefer less. So there is chronic tension in me about what he's doing, and I guess my abrupt move with the non-croutons also came from that.

It's almost silly to micro-analyse a minor event like that, but it does seem to reflect a lot of things for me. And given that it culminated in him grinding away with a passive-aggressive commentary on my "character flaws" and me raising my voice and leaving.... I guess it contains truths to ponder. One of them is M's weight. I have never made any reference to it and would never shame him. But he is quite overweight, with a huge belly, etc. And when he insists that food is only about pleasure and celebration (but never makes a single reference to health), it troubles me. His meals he shares are both delicious and mostly healthy, but I believe he eats a lot of sweets alone. Not my job, but at times I feel inner tension over that too (I did spend years writing health books and nutrition things professionally). I've never been with a man as overweight as he is.

CB, your suggestion that I cook sometimes too is a good one. The thing is, I'm a much less relaxed cook for other people...it makes me tense. So to cook with M asking constant questions or also running commentary wouldn't be an easy choice. It's simpler to just be the non-cook in the relationship. But I could ask to negotiate with him that I be allowed to do the dishes. (He doesn't even permit that.) It'd make me calmer I think to have a role to play other than forced-student.

Do you think he's got bigger stuff he wants to say, Hops, but doesn't feel that he can?  Or even know he wants to, really?  I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a bit.  There just seems to be a pattern (from the things you post) of him saying what he's supposed to rather than doing what he's supposed to (or what you ask him to, I suppose is more accurate).  And almost like he's pleased when you get something 'wrong' because it gives him a chance to critique you?  I don't really know how to explain it.  I just feel like when I read about 'crouton gate' it seems like there is something bigger than croutons?

Yes, I think I've finally caught onto M saying the "right" thing in response to requests (even in T) but basically doing whatever he wants to anyway. The more depressing possibility is that M doesn't just have N-ish traits (as I do too) but perhaps he is far more narcissistic than I've been willing to face.

It seems odd, when I think of his emotional, vulnerable side. But if I'm honest, his emotional expression is usually all about his own feelings. He doesn't show much empathy for mine.

Sigh. I don't really know. But I've found myself watching a whole bunch of Dr. Les Clark videos (Surviving Narcissism on YouTube) lately. I don't know if I'm trying to confirm a fear or rule it out. No firm answer yet but a definite trend I need to think about very soberly.

Thanks guys. I will survive Croutongate! And maybe M and I will survive it together. I feel fortunate that I know we can dump it in the lap of the Sikh on Monday, and get some insight.

Much gratitude,
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

It seems like M's fairly entrenched in his NEEEEEED to talk about food.  Maybe.... OCD type stuff?

That he agrees, so quickly, to back off, then bolts forward again, with the behavior you've asked him gently to put down... means?  That he's unable or unwilling to put it down?  With his companion?  You're his companion.  He's used to behaving this way with his wife, I suppose.

The questions are....
can he learn to do something else?  Maybe look forward to keeping it all to himself, as you suggested, then "surprising" you with, and providing details in person.

Or...
can you get used to the chatter?

I have to say, although I might be happy to have someone cook gourmet me for me, I wouldn't be happy to be held captive by all the details either.  It's like hand holding, and ego massaging that's beyond me too.

I'm curious what your couple's T says and how he handles it. 

About your snatching food, and his reaction to it.

I think there was a conversation to be had about what was in the bowl. 

That you snatched it, IMO, spoke to M's trouncing your boundaries... about your feeling unheard. 

That M had the reaction he did speaks to his resistance to your having those boundaries.  As you've noted, he's very food focused.   He wants you to drink
more than you want to drink.

From here it looks like you missed an opportunity to be straightforward with him, talk about that, and figure out what was in the bowl, as you and M already agree.

Under it all is the unrest, feeling of boundaries being dishonored, feeling of having to be constantly on guard, and maybe that's both of you... M and Hops, for surely having to hold his tongue and NOT share foodies stuff feels like a burden to him, even if he's not succeeding.  He KNOWS he's failing, IMO.

Failing, for him, likely feels very bad and he doesn't want to face up to it or own it or change it, bc not doing it perfectly is already taxing him...  maybe.  I'm just throwing stuff against the wall here.  I can't be sure of one thing I've written. 

At first I felt he was bullying you over the tofu pawing incident, but I'm not sure it's that straightforward now.  It makes sense he'd try to change those behaviors, in you, that bring him discomfort and feelings of failure. 

Here's the thing that gives me pause.....
what if changing his behaviors,  and NOT talking compulsively is super difficult for him OR brings up feelings of abandonment he doesn't understand or have the coping strategies to deal with successfully yet.

I've always seen M in that light.... lacking coping strategies to deal with his young M's reactivity and feelings of abandonment that aren't right or wrong... they just ARE, until he figures them out with enough professional help and self awareness/reflection.

If he needs more support, that's different than his willfully forcing his way or the highway on you, iMO.

Is he bullying and picking fights?  I'd have to say, ya... he is.

Why is he doing it?  I'd say his younger M self is reacting, rather than his adult
 self by forcing you to take responsinilty for all the negative feelings, yours and his, and requiring you to TAKE responsibility and FIX it for him, and for yourself.

 Honestly..... what does that mean?  Nothing if it's not accurate, and the lovely couple's T knows the situation and you both pretty well.

Food for thought.

Lighter

[lighter]

Ok... I see you guys puzzled on this a good deal before I posted.

Hops... I dated a chef once, and it almost ruined cooking forever. 

It DID ruin golf, forever, bc he was so picky and wanted me to feel insecure.  He WANTD me to need him to do everything in the kitchen, which was how that went eventually.  I never thought about doing any food prep or planning again WITH him.

I stuffed all that, btw, and actually fed him a lovely meal I prepared for another boy, I wasn't actually dating, but who wanted to date me.  It was a huge FY, and he felt every inch of it, while I wasn't truly aware of it, on a conscious level... it just came out sideways. 

So....
food.
Ya. 

The trauma of food sensitivities, and health issues compounds things, as Tupp mentioned. 

It's perfectly reasonable for you to have concerns for M's health.  With your background, it's almost impossible not to, IMO. 

CB... you said a lot with fewer words.  I agree with it all. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Lighter...but CB suggested maybe this doesn't even rank for a therapy session? Are you agreeing with that as well?

Confused.

Struggling.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

I'm saying the tofu isn't reason for a T session.

I'm saying what's beneath it, likely is.

Lighter