Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

Thank you, (((((Tupp))))).

It's very helpful to have a view from a distance, which is way more objective than I can be easily at the moment.

I was surprised by how it all hit me again, and I do think it's related to the pandemic and winter closing in (despite fire pit!). But it's also real heart stuff.

You pose very sane questions: Is it better or worse with him. Will getting through winter (or life) be harder or easier with or without him.

The rational conclusion (he won't change, so let it go) is very easy for my brain to comprehend.

The heart stuff is harder but I am going to continue to try to balance reason and heart. I live with ambiguity in my creative life but am not sure I should in my regular life.

hugs and thanks,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Part of what's catching up with me, I think, is that I wasn't feeling all the feelings when I broke up with M.

I bottled it, analysed it, buried it, and pressed forward without giving space for the grief.

Just now I really cried. Sob style. And realized how very long it's been since I allowed that to happen.

A relief. Called a friend who could hear it and understand it.

Now just need to be patient with my delayed reaction and understand that grief follows its own timetable and takes its own form.

Also told M in a straightfoward way (email) what the sadness is now. No expectations of a response. Still going there for Tgiving, far as I know.

I precipitated it but it's still hard. Love makes no sense so why do I still want it?

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Oh, man.

He just responded: "It's not over, Hops. Email isn't the place to discuss...[etc.]."

How is it "not over" when you direct a poet "Do not imagine anything else" etc?

F*** me.

Halllllp!

hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

OK. Disclaimer: I only know what I know. Might help; might not.

In every new relationship there is this kind of "in-between" fantasy and reality space. Where one is open to all the little things that evoke the hope for something solid, committed & compatible in the near future. Duration and when it shows up is different for everyone.

What you saw while in that space was initially charming and all well & good. You both learned a lot about interacting with each other; maybe you more than M. Later on, as you became more of an exclusive couple... you saw some things that you absolutely knew you weren't interested in having in your life on a regular basis.

I don't know what you "should" do now. But this current stress is why I don't usually recommend trying to maintain a "friend zone" relationship after something potentially serious and committed falls apart. He knows what buttons to push to put you on the back foot Hops; make you feel obligated to hand over the goods now that you're talking again. Pushed they are. You're finally addressing your real feelings about how/why things ended. You have real grief over real hopes for a real relationship that just didn't manifest.

But - that doesn't equate to you having the desire to walk right back into what wasn't comfortable for you when you left. Because, if he wasn't acknowledging and respecting your feelings - and trying to accommodate your wants/needs from a relationship THEN... you guys were still in that in-between place. Not quite "in love with the idea of love" or the fantasy place and not quite the real thing either. IMO, you got the short end of the stick - AND all the work trying to make it work.

That's what I see; from my spot outside it all. Could be totally off base. Just remember - whatever you choose Hops - you can take your own sweet time to be comfortable with what you want and decide to do about what you want. NO PRESSURE; no obligation; you can bow out to protect yourself or just mull it over... or just refocus on you. on M.

You didn't want to put yourself in a position where he didn't think it was over, remember? Well, well, well... I guess you called that correctly. Don't panic. Take your time. Get clear in yourself FIRST. Then address him.

[Hopalong]

THANK YOU, Amber.

More tears.

This time because of feeling so understood and supported.

Can't express at the mo' how much that means.

Much much gratitude,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

((((((((Hops))))))))

What Skep said.  I think he can pull your strings - unintentionally or not, I don't know, but just from your last few posts "It's not over, Hops" is a contradiction of his earlier email; "Don't imagine anything else"  and the other one where he said "Happy or sad, I'm interested in being around you.  Nothing more".  I think he showed willing, Hops, with the counseling and so on, but he is who he is.  I think maybe he can transition to friendship, maybe not so much that you can.  I think he was able to spend two years telling you he loved you because he probably did/does - but it still doesn't change who he is, or whether he can give you what you need, or be who you want/need him to be.

But I think the really important thing now is to focus on you, as Skep said.  Not deciphering his messages and trying to work out hidden meaning and so on.  I think he's been clear in his actions - deeds, not words, and all that.  What do you want now?  For yourself, as that's the only bit you can do anything about.  I think letting the grief out is absolutely the right thing to do, and maybe you hadn't before because you didn't really think it was over.  Maybe a part of you was hoping that the friendship would become a relationship without the stress, or that he'd have carried on going to therapy and you'd be working things out together.  Maybe, maybe, maybe.  Maybe have a time out now.  Don't contact him again for a bit, let yourself settle, let your own feelings come out without them being muddled by more contact with M.  I don't know when Thanksgiving is but maybe focus on yourself until then, have your dinner with him, maybe then you can chat face to face.  But please keep you at the centre of everything you do, Hopsie xx

[lighter]

I'm so sorry another layer of pain popped up, ((dear one.))

It's one thing to step back and take stock.  An entirely other thing to feel M release  hope for a loving future with you.  I think M felt he had to.....to sustain connection with you.  I think his pulling back makes it real...the death of hope.

Another layer of loss deserves to be deeply felt.  It's sad, Hops.  It could haveshouldhave been...
so good/better/enough.

How can so many amazing connections with M not be enough? 

I think M's darkness rubbed against your darkness and there's not enough compromise to fix it....and there never will be, imo. 

Not your fault, Hops. 

Not anyone's, but still....
so sad and I'm sorry you're hurting.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Checking in for how things feel this morning. Did you sleep Hops?

Something us girls have talked about repeatedly and explored different aspects of it at the Farm, is what a mirage & trick it is when we are motivated to give of ourselves, be open & vulnerable & loving...

and it's not coming back to us from a partner. IME, this is one of the deepest hurts because it pricks at the childhood wounds - again.

But WHY is there an automatic expectation, that if one gives love in a relationship that it's always going to come back? Why sometimes, do some of us keep beating that dead horse, being inventive & creative, always hoping that THIS TIME - we'll be heard, felt & seen and OF COURSE that will evoke the same level of love, honesty, vulnerability & respect in response. (Not saying you did this Hops; you recognized you weren't getting an equal response and you took appropriate action. For yourself.)

Methinks this goes back to that childhood programming of parenting our parent; and being bereft in response - or worse.

I'm tossing this out - irrelevant as it is to actual circumstances right now - to help put some mileposts up; waypoints to understanding what's going on when your feeling-storm calms enough to think about it again.

You posted that last email from M, last night - same time I was typing my post. And I've got to say, that he must have sensed your emotional upheaval starting and took advantage to press again for what he wants - without regard to your comfort or state of mind*. I sure wouldn't think it was possible to be friends with someone who treated me that way; that pressure - pushing - influence - give me what I want was a theme you revisited several times over the course of your time with M. The Sikh wasn't able to enlighten him or get him to see that this wasn't a two-way street situation; he wasn't letting it be.

* This kind of thing evokes my anger and protectiveness. And I would go directly to confrontation here. Even though I'd much rather not; I'd feel I wasn't left any real choice. Because of my instinctive reaction. Which is why last night's advice to take as much time as you need - to sort this out; feel all the feelings and think all the thoughts (my alternate strategy) - makes more sense for you. You'll like yourself better doing this your own way. I'm well aware that my "let the chips fall where they may" reaction has made my own life more difficult than it has to be. But it's also kept me more safe than I would've been otherwise.

Safety has a downside too.

[Hopalong]

Thank you ALL. So very much. Gratitude beyond my vocabulary.

Tupp, spot on as ever:

I think he can pull your strings - unintentionally or not

.

And I think you're right too that it was just a burst of avoided grief that finally got to the surface. It shocked and confused me, as I cry so seldom, but I think that's all it was. I take powerful feelings as a cue something has to change or I have to make it change and quickly, when in reality, they just mean I have to weather them. I have to be with some powerful feelings, which will pass. Thank god I have y'all to see it from a distance. Thank you so very much, Tupp.

Amber, I'm embarrassed but amused to recognize how little I've learned. DECADES ago I used to say to friends tongue-in-cheek but knowing it was true: "I can beat a dead horse into dog food." (BTW I did sleep, because I said hell with this and took an Ambien.) I think you have real and surprising perception about how M senses and reacts to bits of emotional vulnerability or information from me:

he must have sensed your emotional upheaval starting and took advantage to press again for what he wants - without regard to your comfort or state of mind*. I sure wouldn't think it was possible to be friends with someone who treated me that way; that pressure - pushing - influence - give me what I want was a theme

This is sobering and helpful, in a very big way. Thank you. I had been feeling guilty about prodding him to take up therapy again (I know the old "I can change him" delusion is useless, but my wily heart was trying to find workarounds). But the original theme won't have changed, I'm sure.

Lighter, your pure compassion came through like a ray of sunlight. Thank you. Thank you for your kindness and how you respond to pain. All with such perceptiveness:

to feel M release hope for a loving future with you. I think M felt he had to.....to sustain connection with you. I think his pulling back makes it real...the death of hope.

You're right. The whole time (decades ago) I was pining over an impossible romance I yearned after for years...that was when I came up with a ferocious commitment to "reality is my friend" as the only antidote to the emotional wreckage I'd created for myself. I remember back then also repeating to myself, "hope is my enemy." I don't mean that as a bleak outlook on life, which I generally feel is about beauty and gratitude. Just as a way to cope with love, which I'd bungled like a naked oyster on an interstate. (Or like the imprinted child parenting the parent, as Amber mentioned.)

This helped me too, the way surgery can save a life. It hurts but it's clear:

there's not enough compromise to fix it....and there never will be

I don't know why I was so thrown off. Well, I do. Two cozy peaceful evenings, a couple hugs, and a sense that I'll be alone forever...plus pandemic....plus winter closing in... I was just undone by isolation and aging and fearing, it's all lost now.

It helped that I took a walk with a friend yesterday. And I've made plans to do the same today and every day I can when the sun breaks through.

My house is a cluttered mess. I get it cleaned up and then space out for a week or so and it's suddenly a shambles. I feel shame. I wonder if any man I might meet would be so horrified by my ADD stuff that he'd reject me on that basis.

I'm still trying in the limited way one can right now. Got a response from a businessman about an hour away. Very very intelligent but perhaps conservative. Dunno yet, but it was fun emailing him. And reading his fairly astounding blog.

My closest friend here is a fantasist. She tends to encourage my hopes and make fanciful predictions about how it will go. Y'all are different, and I think the distance of being in the ether together gives you clearer sight.

The one piece I'm still chewing on is asking myself why I can't accept M exactly as he is, because it's a cardinal sin to try to change someone. When I ask myself why, I just go back to that final straw -- the night he couldn't listen to me after I asked him to 8 times in a row -- and how despairing I felt as that sank in. It's an important memory and I think it could guide me. It was real and I sensed the health consequences of him not listening. And now, his choosing no new therapy to teach him how.

It's pretty clear.

I hope if I wobble or ever come back with some other rationalization for why M and I might try again...you won't hate me for it. I'm being honest about this because I feel weak at the moment. BUT, between now and Tgiving I'm really going to try to stiffen up my resolve. Hopefully, after that, I won't succumb to the temptation to reach out to him again, or delude myself that I can handle "just friends" when such an enormous dream had to be sacrificed. I think I understand what just happened. A "curtain call" as Judith Sills terms it. Not everybody breaks up cleanly, sometimes there are revisits and retestings of limits and, unfortunately, fresh blasts of irrational hope.

I have a feeling you would care and listen either way. You're a lot more patient than I am. But if you don't want to hear more about him, please do say so. Seriously I'd rather close down this thread than risk alienating you!

For now, in this morning's return to sanity (on a beautiful blue bus driven by you all), I am clear. I will go for Tgiving as promised but do better and more conscious battle with my own escapist fantasies. Face this solo life as it is now. Do sensible things to get through winter. Work on house and health. Walk all I can. Zoom more often. Be honest with myself and speak my truth to others, even if vulnerability makes them squirm.

I love you all.

So gratefully,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

We all want to hear how you're doing, Hopsie, and there's no need to berate or admonish yourself for reaching out to him, still loving him, still wanting and hoping for him (or someone else) to be in your life - especially when there's little else positive going on just now to distract yourself with.  It's all part of being human.  None of us manages all of this without developing a few battle scars, it's life.  Some bits are great, some bits are awful, most of it's just hum drum between the two.  None of it is unacceptable - it just is what it is.  I think you can have hope for a commitment to reality.  That sits better with me than hope being the enemy.  Unfortunately the only way we can figure out if someone is right for us is to get to know them - and that can mean we fall in love with someone who isn't right for us in every way.  The difference between you and most other people, I think, is that a lot of women in your position (I don't mean that to sound unkind but I understand your concerns about spending your golden years alone and on a low income) would have gone ahead and married M, telling themselves they could cope, he would change, it would all be okay, and they'd spend the later part of their life being increasingly unhappy in a gilded cage wondering if they'd have been better off staying single.

You've been completely committed to reality all the way through.  You never hid from M's faults, or your discomfort with them, or your own needs.  You've worked, honestly and openly, for months, on him and on yourself.  It doesn't get much more real than that.  I'd also lay money that M being one of the few people who's been as cautious about the virus as you have has also made him seem more viable just now - there aren't many people you can safely hug with and we all need that.  Self love, Hopsie - no giving yourself a hard time.  Muddle through as best you can, limp through some bits, sail through others.  We're all here and we're all rooting for ya xx

[Hopalong]

[a poem by Derek Walcott]

The time will come
when, with elation
you will greet yourself arriving
at your own door, in your own mirror
and each will smile at the other's welcome,

and say, sit here. Eat.
You will love again the stranger who was your self.
Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart
to itself, to the stranger who has loved you

all your life, whom you ignored
for another, who knows you by heart.
Take down the love letters from the bookshelf,

the photographs, the desperate notes,
peel your own image from the mirror.
Sit. Feast on your life.

[Hopalong]

Thank you, Tupp. You are so very very sane and I hope you know how stabilizing you are. I'm wallowing around with a broken rudder and you're pointing out that I also have perfectly serviceable oars. !!!!

I was pondering what you said about "Hope is the enemy" and you're right. That's not true.

I think what I was trying to tell myself back then was more akin to "Fantasy is my enemy." I KNOW that's true, in love relationships. Because I have a Post-PhD in fantasizing (a poet/writer imagination, all very nice, but in romance it can go on steroids and be very unhealthy).

I had spent literally several years FANTASIZING about a beautiful future with the man. And belatedly, about the time Reality Friend turned up in my mind, I recognized that the writerly imagination was actually a danger in real life connections with men. Fantasy. Instead of taking in what was real and showing patience for it all to reveal itself.

M was ready to commit to everything after two months, with incredible amounts of love-hyperbole in writing that were seductive and dizzying. Plus his endless pressure. I dragged my feet throughout but wanted the fantasy, too. Eventually, my fantasies smacked into the reality of how it felt too often.

I still believe that for me as an individual, Fantasy is an enemy (in relationships). Not hope. Thanks for helping me notice that.

Sheesh. Wish I'd reminded myself of what I had once learned. But I guess some lessons, for me anyway, one has to learn more than once.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

OH PUH-LEASE Hops...

we all have our moments. And there is stuff you're working through that is deeply thoughtful and intensely emotional. No JUDGEMENT about anything from us. You don't need to apologize. When each of us has had those "falling apart" moments you've been there. Just returning the love.   

After all, even Amazons can make the same mistake more than once. I know I have. We can at the very least support each other when someone else is going through it.

Now - the fantasy doesn't need to be set out on trash day, IMO. It's a healthy piece of our psyche; it's where we DREAM. If we couldn't imagine the fairy tale coming true; would any of us dare risk another relationship? I don't think we'd be eager about it. Knowing the different taste, feel & smells of fantasy versus reality is an acquired skill that is perishable if we have no vital reason for practicing it. And being "out of the game" for an extended length of time - we forget things; aren't as fluent. (Reminding: how much I've second guessed my own feelings for B. Is it real or is it memorex?) Isolation really doesn't help.

The feelings will pass. It's gonna be OK Hops. You're still our dear poet and dreamer. You still have a really keen sense of discernment and reality. This is just a stumble. We got you.

[Hopalong]

Once again, Amber...
you've made me cry.

In a GOOD way.

Thank you, kind friend.

Sniffing, going to fetch a glass of wine because it's five o'clock somewhere......

grateful hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

You owe us nothing, and yourself everything.  There are no SHOULDs or absolutes to tend to on our account.  We'll be here, with our truth and cyber tea, as needed, for you.

Everything is information and lessons and growth, at least for someone as earnest as you, always  stretching and seeking to see yourself honestly.  Maybe your childhood script stops you seeing others with such rigor.

But acceptance...really sinking into it, sometimes changes perspectives, ime.  Creates serenity. 
Opens other possibilities we couldn't see before, ime.  Not necessarily with M, but perhaps in spite of him.

Be curious at Thanksgiving.  And fearless.  SEE with eyes unclouded by emotion.

Widen your gaze.  See the field and remember....
You are the field.

And eat your face off, of course; )

Lighter