Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

I would of course never be so shallow as to lurk in the Washington Post comments to see if anybody "liked" one of mine....so I just accidentally *happened* to see that 76 readers so far liked this one! (Diana Nyland wrote a lovely column about her sweet old dog.)

(And its my happiest relationship so belongs on this thread, yes it does!

My pooch (a shelter mix of corgi, beagle, chihuahua and question marks) is aging before my eyes. She makes me laugh every day. When she wants extra attention she stands beside me on the bed as I type away, staring at me with an urgency that burns holes in my retinas. She inches closer. Her expression is a cross between desperation, stalking wolf, and "this always works." It does. Rub-rub.

Many more ear scratches and sidestrokes to your sweet hound.

[sKePTiKal]

How's the situation with M going Hops? Any new prospects?

[Hopalong]

Thanks for asking, Amber.

M and I have settled into a declared friendship. It includes love but my expectations and romantic hopes are removed. (I'd meant what I told him last summer; with him doing real therapy everything could change, without it my ability to commit as his life partner was over.) At moments it feels bittersweet, but mostly it feels peaceful and supportive and I'm grateful particularly now to have his company about once a week. We both acknowledge we take comfort from each other and have declared we will have each others' backs if hard times come. That's pretty much it. I figure when he becomes frail with age he'll move to California to be near his children.

Oddly, it's easier to feel the love without the pain now. He doesn't say it often but I know he loves me too. It's just too scary for him to explore why he was (during our build-a-dream days) so controlling and unable to listen. Being vulnerable to his lack of EQ was too scary to me to continue believing in a future life shared. He's more open now that there's no life change at risk (such as giving up his house to move with me). I still know that he's not where to turn when I'm in pain or vulnerable, so it's a friendship with one deep but narrow channel, and I turn elsewhere for emotional insight and understanding. Meanwhile, we still enjoy our time.

Had a good talk with my T yesterday, and identified that I want to be more intentional about the kinds of friendships I develop. I have good and loyal friends but only one who really understands me pretty deeply, and she'll be moving in a year. I tend to attract and be attracted to cerebral folks who love a lively talk about ideas, and that's wonderful -- but I also recognized that I sometimes avoid receiving love, even though it's what I yearn for. Easier to give it out than take it in. She thought that was a really important thing for us to keep talking about.

Man-wise, haven't heard more from the guy I saw before covid precautions took over, but doubt there's strong affinity there anyway. My Zoom-pal P is still faithfully turning up and we always enjoy each other. I think there's emotional affinity there, but his eccentricities are steel plated. No rush, no worry. Vaccinations and post-pandemic plans are all on hold. I check the dating site only about once and month and usually tell anybody who writes, let's see in summer.

All in all, a relief not to be involved in anything striving right now. I'm working on relationship with myself, mostly.

Invited M over to watch the inauguration and we both really appreciated having each other to comment and celebrate with. Made him a salmon salad sandwich, and my relationship with Pooch deepens with every dish she's invited to clean.

SHE is my soulmate, for fact. Delights me every single day. (Doesn't hurt to see M adoring her too and laughing at her amazing, expressive face. After you obediently scratch her chest a while and then stop, she aims her nose in the air and sits still as a sphinx. I have figured out what's she's thinking. It's either "Continue, Peasant" or possibly "Kneel!). So funny. Mostly she's a total cuddlebug.

I aspire to be the same for some lucky fella one day. Or another dog.

hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I guess maybe some people learn to receive love, by loving ourselves wisely. But a thought popped into my head - what if instead of "releasing the outcome" -- we have to practice "releasing the INcoming" too?  Incoming love - or attempts at same, I mean.

I'm glad you've found a comfy spot with M now. It seemed like this was going to bug you until you found a way through. And it's good to hear you're making a life that's working out for you - despite the continued weirdness we experience in life these days.

I'm still in a "wait & see" mode around here - but have been getting a lot of "little things" taken care of, that will streamline B's entry when it finally happens. (Steady progress happening; but SLOW is the adjective.) Long postponed tasks that completely fell off the list around are getting done. Purging (both Hol & I) is now a major endeavor before spring gets here. When it's time to be outside - I don't want a lot of things INSIDE tugging at me.

[Hopalong]

we have to practice "releasing the INcoming" too?  Incoming love - or attempts at same

Hmm. This caught me up, Amber. In a thoughtful way. Do you mean release attempts to protect oneself? Let go of control?

M always defined love as letting him paternally control everything; you remember how fiercely I fought that.

I guess it's a balance: being aware of the quality of the incoming and calibrating one's inner gates accordingly. Maybe that's hard for me, but I can learn. Younger, I was happy to hurl myself into passionate attachments -- and over-attached. I had little sense of protecting myself and was drawn to All the Wrong Men. Now my pendulum is rusty and sticks and I'm just hoping it can learn to swing free again but in a wiser context.

Something's awry with me but I'm glad this T is hanging in, so maybe I'm getting closer to something important about releasing. I really hope so.

It's as though in spite of how often I preach "release the outcome" (and really do believe its wisdom) I'm not doing it half as well as I'd imagined. I think I've been more like "avoid the outcome entirely by not asking the universe confidently for what you want in the first place."

It's okay for me to want reciprocity, and communication, and a certain level of insight. I'm going to try on that thought for a while. I believe it, but haven't been comfortable asserting myself for my own sake. Oooo. A pattern. T thinks a big one.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Thought I'd bring up a friend-relationship issue here, hoping for insights.

My closest friend, the poet, means a lot to me. She visits every week or so and I've always felt she's someone I can count on. We went for a gorgeous walk out in the mountains the other day when the cleaning person was here, and then to a brewery to sit outside and enjoy a warmer-than-usual afternoon, it was wonderful. Lately the pandemic has affected her deeply because it prevents her from seeing her child and grandchild often (they live a long distance away) and her relationship with her partner often descends into bickering she's sometimes called me in tears about. So I'm an outlet for her about those things, and she's been an outlet for me about M and about life in general. I was just telling my T how important she is, in our general session about how I need more loving support in my life.

But she does have a temper. When she's upset about the pandemic and we start exchanging facts, she used to get very irritated and start lecturing me about scientific things she'd read. I'd counter a bit (with other scientific sources) -- but what the struggle was I realized was that her intense longing for her family was prompting her to say a lot of things about how we'd "soon be back to normal" or "if you get it it won't be so bad, they'll have new treatments" and a lot of things that were more fantasy than reality based. I understood why eventually, and just stopped debating pandemic stuff, so that got better. (My approach to it is full-on accept the harsh reality, and hers is more escapist hopeful fantasies. Just different.)

I finally realized that she, like M, is also from an academic family and environment (both her parents were quite famous in their field) and that she has a way of occasionally dominating in a lecturing tone that I'm very allergic to as it feels so condescending. Hmmm. She lapses into that now and then but not all the time.

Anyway, today we were walking and I mentioned that because of the new virus variants I was just going to keep my head down but double down on my precautions, for example by double-masking and increasing my distance to eight feet. (It's a pretty wide street and I was walking well into people's yards with the dog, but she kept walking a bit closer than I was comfortable with, so I asked her if she could go out one more foot, which put her a little into the street--not the middle or anything, but a bit more.) Anyway, she got mad and said she couldn't both walk and talk and was just trying to have a conversation, so we'd have to stop talking and just walk separately.

So we did, and she told me to go ahead and I complied, and a couple times just turned back to wave at her in a friendly way. We'd agreed to meet back at the house. The last time, I was many yards ahead, and when I turned to wave she stopped about 15 YARDS back and said, "Is this far enough?"

Tonight I realized I was feeling extremely anxious about it, even though we'd still had a pleasant visit. I'd asked her to bring her own snack as I hadn't made a new food order so she had brought packages of crackers and cheese, and finally offered me some. (I usually serve her drinks and something like spanikopita, but she never offers to bring anything so occasionally I ask since I don't always add snacks to the food order.) I ate too much of her cheese and she mentioned it was usually for her lunch so I felt weird about that too.

I guess I just don't handle other people's anger or annoyance well at all. I know all this must sound petty and silly, but the ultimate result was that I got very anxious tonight. Ordered a pizza and slice of cheesecake and binged. Later had trouble breathing.

It was that one moment, when she was standing so far away and snidely asking, "Is this far enough?" It represented not only distance but loss of connection, I think, and it hurt. Tonight I realized that it was very similar to the way I'd feel when M would be angry or frustrated and verbally go after me. I feel scared in moments like that. That's the truth.

It also tells me I'm emotionally too dependent on her. And that in general, I'm scared to trust or be vulnerable, even with the people I'm closest to. (M and I are doing fine but for me, it includes a knowledge that he's not fully trustworthy if I were in pain or really vulnerable. And this is my general problem with the people I pick to be closest to, which my T and I identified last time.)

So tonight I wrote her a long email about how I have trouble with others' anger and how I know that getting angry or frustrated is fine, it's just that if she could say it directly rather than going to sarcasm or lecturing it'd be easier, and told her about that moment when she stood way back and asked that question and how it felt, etc. Also told her how important she is to me, etc.

But I didn't send it. I feel afraid to share how I really feel when she lets her temper show in that kind of verbal jabbing, and how the truth is it scares me because it affects our connection.

I really think this is about some early-life feelings of not being safe. My T brought that up last time. And if that's the case, maybe it's better for me just to work on these things with my T, rather than try to confront it or talk about it with the person who's triggered those feelings. (Because more than making a big deal out of a relatively minor moment in an overall good friendship, perhaps I'd do better just seeing it as an opportunity to get more insight working with my T.)

Hmmm. I think that's why I'm thinking this, and writing y'all in the middle of the night. This might be a deeply personal healing thing with very old roots, and not a thing I should take up with a person who maybe won't respond well without escalating (she gets into regular fights with her partner), or who just can't manage her own emotions completely anyway because of all she's coping with. I think I like that decision better, and writing it out here has already helped.

I don't want to put pressure on our friendship, because I think the pandemic restrictions make it hard enough for people to stay connected right now anyway. And on balance I'm glad she's in my life.

I think part of my worry is, does this mean I'm just too dependent? I really am rocked by it when someone I'm close to gets angry at me. I want to run away from it but also feel like a combo of persuading/explaining/clutching/persuading (won't you talk to me more nicely?). Maybe that also came out in the email draft (which years ago, I would've sent. Maybe I'm making progress.)

I'm open to considering the question, though. Send email? I'm thinking not, though I've always analysed things to death in close relationships, which must be tedious. It's anxiety, I think. Fear of abandonment. (If someone gets angry with me, I'm unsafe.) 

How LUCKY I am to have this place where I can vent it all. (I first wrote "how pathetic" here, but then erased it, then put it back to be real.) Thanks for listening.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Oh, Hopsie.  I'm sorry.  People are hard, and the pandemic's making them harder, I think.  Just my very brief thoughts, but -

I wouldn't send the email.  I think everyone's so heightened at the minute, people are acting out, being irrational, being over sensitive, not being sensitive enough, etc, etc.  I don't think it's the right time to do relationships fixing stuff just now.  You could perhaps (if you meet for another walk) contact her beforehand to say, I do need the extra space, I'm concerned about the variant, is that okay or would you rather hold off/zoom/ meet outside a cafe or whatever else might be possible.  I think the hurt feelings and sarcasm can be discussed at a later date when we aren't all orbiting in various spins depending on what's happening at the time.

I don't think you're too dependent, though, far from it?  You're aware of things that bug you, which is perfectly healthy, you take your time when reacting or responding to things, you have your healthy boundaries, all of which is good, but equally at the moment I think we're all just so chuffing grateful to have anyone we can talk to or meet with in some way that the fear of upsetting the apple cart is heightened just a bit, maybe?  I don't think that makes you dependent.  You crave love, affection, companionship, intelligent conversation, emotional understanding, probably a good laugh as well, but you don't want to lose or give up parts of yourself to get that.  Perfectly normal, in my humble opinion.

The sarcastic 'is this far enough?' would have triggered me as well.  I've had several friends be quite sarcastic and uncaring about my efforts to keep son safe during this and it's cut me to the bone, I must say.  I've not questioned or lectured them on not taking precautions so I do feel a little baffled when people can't be a bit more accommodating when all you're doing is trying to keep yourself safe.  It's hard, particularly when it's so difficult to have contact with people just now anyway, but equally I think others are coping with the same stress, but in a different way.  Most of my friends have adopted a 'it's just the flu' attitude, which it may well be for them.  But it's not for everyone; some are at far more risk and you're right to keep those safety precautions in place.  I don't think it's any kind of reflection on you to react to someone doing that; it feels like a rejection (of your safety and your request) and sarcasm is quite passive aggressive - it can be funny when it's 'banter' but like that it feels nasty and it's difficult to respond to in the moment.  I know my anxiety is heightened at the moment anyway so things that might not have been an issue feel like a bigger deal just now.  I don't think your reaction was out of proportion, although I am sorry that it made you feel as unwell as it did.  I have been eating non-stop for the last couple of days, and spoiling all my efforts to lose weight and it does make you feel like you've let yourself down.  But I think we all need to cut ourselves a bit of slack just now and plod through the day as best we can.

I do think it's worth working on with T; I find it hard to trust or open up and I know enough people have attacked when I've shown weakness; it does get you down, especially when it's people you care about.  But I think you're right to work on it with her, rather than with your friend.  I'd be inclined to let it go for now, mention you need the distance before you meet next time (or suggest zoom rather than walks or whatever) and maybe you could talk about it with her further down the line when everyone's in a better frame of mind.  Just my thoughts for what they are worth, free to ignore if need be   Hugs, Hopsie.  I would happily walk along the other side of the street and shout through a megaphone rather than getting to close and making you feel uncomfortable Not a terribly private conversation, I guess, but who cares   Lol.

PS I just realised I missed that post you put about the comments regarding Pooch on the newspaper article.  So sweet, she is such a cutie pie xx

[sKePTiKal]

The Queen of Sarcasm will share a little secret with ya Hops... it might not've had anything to do with you at all. Your observation that people are just "full up" of dealing with life difficulties, a lot of strange new situations, etc is correct. Sarcasm is one way to vent off a little of that internal pressure that builds up over time, trying to adapt & adjust & regulate ourselves under those new circumstances. The cup runneth over - and it just spills out. If you two are close longtime friends - she might've felt comfortable & trusting enough with you, to just be what she feeling in that moment. It might not've felt that great for you in the moment - but in a warped way, it is kind of a compliment to your relationship. She might not have been angry - but rather, needed comfort, normalcy, and connection and that MIGHT have been the quickest easiest (albeit not so healthy) way of her asking for help.

There is a difference between being sensitive to emotions (everyones) and being emotionally dependent, for me.

Because of my sensory sensitivites, I can simply not "have anything left in the tank" to deal with anyone's strong emotions (at all; nevermind well). It's too much all at one time, until I am afforded the quiet continuity of my self-designed cocoon, to recover. It's real easy in that emotionally/sensorily stressed state for me to take other people's emotions personally - feeling responsible for crossing a boundary, making them angry. When it's absolutely nothing I did. I don't have to fix their emotions either; not my job. I just need to take care of myself.

Emotionally dependent, for me, would be if you accepted that treatment all the time and volunteered to keep your friend OK - fixing her feelings - for your own security; so you could be OK. (And granted - I think there's more than one way to be emotionally dependent... this is just the one that relates to this situation.)

Don't send the email. You wrote it to try to work out just what you were feeling/thinking... analyzing. Trying to understand what just happened. I think you're secure enough in you, that you don't have any real worries (actual threats) about being abandoned. But if that feels like there is something "under the surface"... definitely work it thru with T.

I'm noticing all kinds of things pushing in on people these days; it is the best of times and it is the worst of times. We're all just trying to do the best we can; but we're exhausted from it all - and the gas tank is empty. We all recharge differently but we all need to recharge.

[Hopalong]

Thanks much, you two. You are so wise, and in the light of day I agree completely. Everyone is frazzled in a deep way, we're all off balance and have been under this stress for a year, the country and whole world has been suffering, and different people are going to erupt or express in different ways.

I do want to explore it all more with my T and will do that. I feel incredibly grateful that I'm able to sit and Zoom into my old old stuff, and touch on those feelings with her. Most of the time I feel as though I'm yattering a lot and fairly fast, and she expresses herself very very slowly. I struggle with adapting to her pace and I'm sure the obverse is true. On the other hand, I'm rock-certain about her integrity and compassion, and for those, I'll take momentary discomfort any time.

As to "making her angry", Amber, I don't really fear that. I've learned over time that there is a streak of buried rage in her (her own early issues, including being molested by a villager when very young, while they lived in Africa for her parents' research) and just don't want to be a target of it, ever. I don't think that spurt of passive-agressive sarcasm (right, Tupp) was at the level of ending the relationship. But I do feel somewhat more guarded now. When she's agitated about something you can feel her nearing a boil and if you're near, you might get a sharp verbal jab.

I will not send it, email's not going. I'm just feeling sad/sorry that it's so hard to find emotional safety. What that means is my own capacity to self-soothe is still not as strong as it needs to be. And I need to provide my own emotional safety. That's difficult when I'm anxious, as those symptoms (can't breathe, chest pangs) are so scary the older I get. But I can talk about this with my T too. Whew.

Thanks so much for listening, y'all. Imagine having a place where in the middle of the night you can turn there and pour out your heart and your worries, and wake up to such insight, practicality, and kindness.

Uber thanks. I hope you know how much help you really give.

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

[Internet rabbit holes....just in case anyone here has never read this, it's free now. Intuition is the flip side of self-knowledge, I think. Other-knowledge.]

https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-gift-of-fear-d39893700.html

If you read nothing else, Chapter Two is GENIUS. I mean that specifically, genius.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I think being able to self soothe just isn't matched to the current situation, Hopsie.  Under normal circs you'd probably not have been affected by that, she'd probably not have said it it (and it may be that she wasn't meaning it in a sarcastic way, her tone might be off because she's more anxious than usual?  I know I'm more heightened when we're at doctors appointments and I do get sarcastic during those quite often, I think it's nerves?  So maybe that's a factor). I do wonder - and I'm not sure if I'm going to express myself well with this - if people who are more intelligent, creative, eager to discuss (which are the kind of things you like and are drawn to) are also more likely to have certain personality traits - a tendency to lecture, not hear the other person, keep talking when they're asked not to and so on - that are just kind of part of the package?  A bit like that article Dr G posted about depression and intelligence.  Maybe some things that aren't great to be on the receiving end of are linked to people who are very bright/well qualified/creative etc.  I remember many years ago crying at my therapy appointment because I felt so depressed and I felt I was letting my baby down by not being able to be cheerful all the time and feeling so wretched and the therapist, God love her, said to me that maybe he'd prefer a mum who was intelligent, passionate, creative, hard working and devoted to him, who sometimes got down, than one who never got depressed but also never did much else either.  It's always stayed with me.  I know people who are perfectly inoffensive, they never trigger me or make me feel uncomfortable - but they also never delight me or enthrall me with the things they say or make me feel gloriously excited to spend time with them.  I'm not sure entirely what I'm wittering on about now, lol, I'm kind of talking to myself.  But maybe along the lines of the overall package - more good bits than bad and the bad being that distinction between ' a bit annoying or thoughtless' and 'abusive and makes me feel terrible'.  I know I was talking to a friend the other day who goes out with crazy women - violent, possessive, huge mood swings, sleep with his friends, say terrible things about him to people, steal his money and so on.  Every one is the same.  He's just split up with the last one and is in a really bad way, has lost friends over her but said to me that he finds normal women boring.  That's extreme, of course, but it did make me wonder about what we look for in people and whether we have to constantly balance what we need or desire (intelligence, passion, creativity, travel, excitement etc) with what we can get (some of those things along with being over bearing, farting a lot, not being able to watch a film they didn't choose and so on) and just keep balancing in our minds whether the good outweighs the bad and whether the bad is an occasional annoyance or a constant problem.  I am waffling and I'm not entirely sure why lol, I think I need coffee!  Anyway, regardless of all of that, I'm glad a bit of equilibrium has returned to your day, Hopsie, and hope that continues xx

[sKePTiKal]

I can understand and appreciate how the anxiety spiral affects everything else, Hops. I'd worry about you more if it didn't. LOL... you're still feeling; that's GOOD. You're still thinking and trying to put things into perspective about interpersonal exchanges; that's GOOD. Right along with the anxiety.

Sun came up again today - that's also GOOD.

[Hopalong]

Hey again.
Amber, the comment you made about needing conversation on Farm Life brought this up.

I miss presence and conversation a LOT. That's why, despite a lot of initial fear of it,  I'm grateful M and I have formed a friendship from the ashes. It's real. Affection is more visible just in our attitudes toward each other. Stakes are low, we just check in, and when we see each other (about once a week, occasionally twice) it's just about talking and company. Now that there's no future-planning or shared-life-building, there's a feeling of ease.

Same time, it's a sorrow we couldn't make it work for the Big Dream I had. I still pretend I could go out once life starts up again and find a mate I could love AND live with.

But the truth is, I do still love M. It's not romantic passion (and that's fine by me) but it is companionable and reliable and real. He's still his compulsive self but his dominating behavior seems to have disappeared. That's likely only because we're NOT merging homes and lives (which triggered his hyper-executive, paternalistic and driven way of wanting to design, decide and be in charge of nearly everything, which drove me mad). And also because the pandemic's restrictions have caused him to appreciate me in a new way, I think. He's also now reduced in size and in power-behavior. By a lot around me, anyway. He still has his scholarly arena where he gets to do all his ego stuff, but where he is also doing good and having a positive impact on thousands. So that's the right arena for his ... bigness.

I can feel his gratitude about me. And it's surprising. I hurt him hard when I left him last summer. I had no choice. But he's found his way to forgiving me, and seems to truly value our time together in a new way. He's not QUITE as one-way with the talking as he used to be. I see him fight with himself to listen more often. (Never for long stretches, mind you!).

He's still egotistical, but what's new is that I can see and feel his vulnerability. Having the universe slam the door shut on his jumping-on-airplanes escape has been a huge blow to him. I think he's reevaluating his life and what matters, as everybody is. The plague got his attention, for sure.

Anyway, I'm trying to avoid fantasy that this year might have changed him in big enough ways that we could wind up living together. But that's maybe risky so I'm trying to turn that off.

I do know that we both kind of light up when we see each other. In me, it's pure gratitude for having one human whom I know pretty well be in my life and safe to see and hug and talk to in person. How huge that is, and how easy before the plague it was to figure that I could replace one stronger connection with a dozen shallow ones.

Regardless of how life turns out or how long it is, I know my time with M hasn't been wasted. I've learned a great deal about myself in the struggle. It's sad that because of our personalities' layers of INcompatibility, it actually felt dangerous to me, stress wise. I feel that a lot less after this period, but I also don't know whether  that dynamic would revert right back to what it was once all this is over.

Wish I did know.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

That's an interesting question Hops - about whether things would revert; or if there would be continued moderation and lowering of intensity. And it will probably take some time/experience to answer that for certain for yourself.

I haven't ever tried to be friends with an ex; just no point given the massive hurt involved in those breakups. I did try to get back with Hol's dad briefly; it was based on dire economic circumstances - and at the time, I'd convinced myself that since I already knew him, I knew what I was in for - and since I was older now, and presumably wiser - I could manage it. LOLOLOLOLOLOL... big mistake! He irritated me and drove me insane worse than before. I was 19 when he & married; he was 10 years older. It just didn't work. (And I'm still trying to pry out from my memories some of the things about him, that cause me to hear all the warning sirens at any suggestion of being in the same room with him.)

[Twoapenny]

Well Hopsie, having read this and your post on your health thread about perhaps a quieter life being a more realistic option to pursue, I'm wondering if there's any possibility that you and M could have your own unique relationship.  Do you have to live together?  Could you be one of those couples who love each other, care for each other, enjoy one another's company - but maintain your own homes, your own lives and simply meet up (insert number here) times a week?  Does it have to be all or nothing?  Perhaps it's a completely ridiculous notion but it just got me wondering if a relationship that has all the good bits but maintains enough distance to minimise the more difficult bits might be an option for you both?