Author Topic: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves  (Read 40521 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2019, 08:01:05 PM »
I think sometimes the miracle has happened for me when I responded to someone else's need or loneliness, in a brief moment when I stopped being so conscious of my own.

Some really loyal and lasting friendships have come out of moments like that, sometimes simple ones.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2019, 04:27:02 AM »
Tupp,
In my online reading this morning, I ran across a woman's account of her life--she felt that she was becoming angry with people and out of sorts in a way that didnt seem to fit her circumstances. She finally went to the doctor because it was so disconcerting to her (she sounded a lot like you in your post, genuinely baffled).

Turns out, she is in perimenopause and her rather sudden decline in hormones had precipitated that. Just as some people get morning sickness and some don't, everyone is not affected the same way by these hormone dumps. But I thought that was interesting and wanted to pass it along to you in case that's something you wanted to look into further. Even if you would rather not take hormone therapy, I think there are natural things you can do to help.

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out as a possibility. I have found in my life and with my kids that a lot of physical problems dont manifest in physical ways which can be really confusing and delay treatment for the underlying issues.

CB

CB, thank you, yes, goodness, so true!  I definitely have menopausal stuff going on and the angry stuff is definitely worse in the two weeks before I get my period.  I've been seeing an acupuncturist and the chinese medicine theory is interesting to me.  It's thought that different emotions get stuck in different organs, so what the acupuncturist is working on is clearing my liver, which is where the anger is thought to lie.  I think the idea is if there's no anger stuck in there, the hormone shift won't make such a big difference.  I have noticed improvement in the hormonal stuff itself - I'm not having as many nights waking up hot and sweaty (in fact this month I think it's only happened once) and I haven't been as sore and bloated so I'm hoping it might be easing a bit.  There are so many things that manifest themselves in physical ways, it's very hard sometimes to try to trace something back and work out where it came from.  I'm sometimes astonished that women get anything done at all; I've spent so much of my life dealing with periods and hormones it's a miracle that there's time or energy to do anything else sometimes lol xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2019, 04:30:32 AM »
Two,

If we find a good friend I think it's like a miracle. To me it seems like a rare thing for a lot of people.

From what I can tell there are many people who are situational friends, classes and work, they come and go.

G, I think that's so true, and it makes me wonder if it's hard to meet real friends because we so often are doing things we don't really want to do - jobs that we have to do to pay the bills, classes that we attend because we want to do something and it's the only thing in our area/that fits with work/that we can afford - so much of our lives are situational, in some ways?  So I supposed it makes sense that most people we meet we meet because of our situation rather than through some sort of deeper link.  I yearn more for the deeper links, I think, but also feel guilty if I don't want to spend time with people because they're nice people, you know?  I just don't feel like I've got that deeper link and I really crave that now.  It's like wanting a really nice dinner rather than a sandwich.  Lol.  It's funny how we often have to make the best of something because it's kind of all that's there.  Happens in all areas of our lives, I think xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #123 on: July 19, 2019, 04:39:06 AM »
I think sometimes the miracle has happened for me when I responded to someone else's need or loneliness, in a brief moment when I stopped being so conscious of my own.

Some really loyal and lasting friendships have come out of moments like that, sometimes simple ones.

Hops

Hops, that was really interesting for me, because I feel like I am in exactly the opposite situation.  I feel like my tendency to reach out to other people's needs is the reason I keep finding myself surrounded by people who only call me when they want something.  And that got me thinking about the difference between those friendships and the friends I've got who do call, chat, know where I'm at and so on.  And the difference is - they're the ones that reached out to me when I was struggling, rather than me reaching out to them.  Isn't that funny?  It got me thinking - and I think I've put this in a post at some point - that I have got to be more real when I meet people.  I always kind of adapt myself to other people - I ask them questions about themselves, I listen to what they say, I carry on talking about it even when I'm not interested.  I really need to push myself more to talk about myself and what I like and don't like, so that I get more people who really see me.  I think that's how I feel with some people; that they don't know me even though we've been friends for years.  Someone suggested meeting her for a beach swim when I told her I was feeling exhausted and wanted to stay at home and rest as much as possible.  And I can appreciate that she's trying to help - but apart from the practicalities of being so tired I can barely stand some days and of who will look after son while I swim - I'm scared of water!  So swimming in the sea is stressful for me - I do it if son wants to because he can't go in on his own but it really isn't something I like to do or find relaxing.  And I just wondered how someone can know me for fifteen years and know so little about me that they suggest something that's one of the things I dislike so much (I love being near the sea but being in it scares me).  And I think it's because I'm too passive; I let people talk about themselves a lot even when I'm not interested in what they have to say and I don't push forth about myself.  I need to try and change that somehow - I just find the practise of it much harder than the reality.  Isn't it funny how those different ideas connect together and help you see what's going on but from a different angle?  That's what I love about the forum, everyone's different thought and perspective helps you see your own more clearly.  So helpful xx

Meh

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2019, 05:27:48 AM »
I'm scared of water too. A warm private pool okay but ocean or rivers nah.  invisable slime monsters

You get like anxiety and panic when you talk about yourself? I guess if you are afraid of losing a friendship you would do anything to keep them, not rock the boat, be agreeable etc.


Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #125 on: July 19, 2019, 06:31:14 AM »
I'm scared of water too. A warm private pool okay but ocean or rivers nah.  invisable slime monsters

You get like anxiety and panic when you talk about yourself? I guess if you are afraid of losing a friendship you would do anything to keep them, not rock the boat, be agreeable etc.

Exactly the same for me, G - I'm okay in water if I can see clearly and my feet can touch the ground and it's enclosed, like a pool.  I'll happily paddle in a stream or at the edge of the ocean but not being able to see what's down there, touch the ground, worrying about waves, rip tides, gusts of wind that knock you off course - nah!  It's not a relaxing experience for me.  Even boats; I get so sick just on a flat, faintly moving surface that it's best just to avoid them.  Lol.

Yes, lots of anxiety, I am far more focused on the other person and making them feel comfortable.  Which is okay in short bursts.  But I find it really hard, for example, to just say to someone, "oh, I just read a book/saw a film/read an article about................." in case it's something they're not interested in, in case they've never heard of it and they feel daft for not knowing about it, in case they think I'm weird for talking about something they've never heard of, in case it's a topic they find offensive, in case it makes them say something that I find offensive.  I think I just see opening up as a risk, plus when I do see people it's often in public places so I'm very conscious of what people around us are hearing as well.  I think I probably just think too much!  Should just talk and not think, it would probably be easier :) Lol

Something very interesting has just happened, though.  I've been talking to a friend who lives some distance away about how much I've been struggling recently, and she's just called to tell me they've booked a holiday nearby to coincide with my birthday next month so that we can spend the day together.  Now how utterly lovely and sweet and kind is that.  Made me cry.  And then also made me think, how do I attract someone that kind, lovely and thoughtful - and also attract people who suck every last ounce out of me and then chuck me on the ground when I say I'm too tired to do anymore?  And now I'm thinking again!  Lol, I'm going to go to the shop and think about groceries; it's easier :)  Have a nice weekend, G xx

Hopalong

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #126 on: July 19, 2019, 11:05:55 AM »
I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.

But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.

What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.

BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.

Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.

I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.

Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)

I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.

It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.

I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.

And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.

I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.

Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.

love to you
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2019, 02:49:30 AM »
I get it, (((((((((Tupp)))))))) -- the possibility of parasite people.
My empathic heart led me into toxic relationships too, and plenty of them.

But in years and years of working on my relationship with myself,
I did get better at it. I can enjoy both solitude and togetherness better, where the latter used to leave me brittle, scared and full of anxiety.

What I should have added about making friends sometimes when the other person
is as or more lonely than I am...it's more often been that the person is coping
with grief, illness, being new to town -- transitory life situations that I can relate to and offer
friendship by just making some time for them. If they seem permanently sealed in self-absorption, personality wise, I'm not attracted to making a connection. Because I know my stress limits and can't take on pure dependency. I can just "feel" that now, when I feel those tentacles coming from someone. I can sense toxicity (and indifference) much better than I used to, in my years of trying to milk turnips and suck water from rocks.

BUT. And it's a BIG "but." Some years back I figured out that the most toxic thing I was
doing was not being my own compassionate friend, who needs RECIPROCITY. Not just
proximity. Reciprocal interest (taking turns though sometimes with stretches where it's one-way because of a crisis situation, so not necessarily 50-50) and reciprocal caring.

The image of milking a turnip has got me laughing, Hops.  I think all of the above is what's relevant to me now.  When I formed these friendships thirteen, fourteen years ago I didn't do reciprocity; I did everything for everyone and never grumbled and of course that's the pattern that was set.  I also didn't have a disabled adult I was looking at figuring out a lifetime of care for, either.  I think that's the issue; I've changed but of course the other people haven't.  Then I feel guilty, which I know is stupid, but I feel like I changed the rules and now I'm angry with them for not changing as well.  Which is daft.  I'd say with these friendships it's 95% me, 5% them, which is nowhere near good enough for what I want now.  It got me thinking about how we're different with platonic friendships to romantic relationships.  If I kept telling people I had a boyfriend but that I only heard from him when he wanted something or he had nothing better to do everyone would think I was mad.  But with friendships it seems to be less clear cut and that's bothered me as well, I think.  But ultimately I want friendships that are roughly 50/50.  Like you say, it doesn't have to be completely even and it doesn't have to be even at all during a tough patch (on either side).  But I seem to have fallen into the role of 'contact when needed and ignore when not' and I don't like that at all.  My own fault - no boundaries in earlier days, and much more free time so it didn't matter as much.  But time is much more precious to me now and I want it to count rather than wear me out.  Definitely needs to be more like 50/50

Even with being tuned in to a new person's needs, these days, if the reciprocity of
support or interest doesn't appear early (despite what they're going through, it's just decent behavior to show SOME awareness--not in the acute pit of grief, of course, but in most situations), I will gently back out of forming an emotionally close connection. If they become stronger and reach out again later, then perhaps a new friendship is ready to be built. Or not.

Yes, this is what I'm doing/practising through the groups I have been going to.  In years gone by I'd have said yes to any invitation, allowed anyone who latched on to me to become my friend, not given a thought about what I was getting out of it.  I've already met a few who talk about themselves constantly - often quite entertainingly, so it's perfectly fine for a bit of small talk at a group thing - but I'll not be pursuing that.  I've met someone who seems nice, but I am taking my time and slowly getting to know them.  I've offered to help out a bit with the local disability sports club; I do think getting involved is a good way to get to know people as you work alongside them and it's kind of easier to get out of those situations if you need to.  Part of it with me is knowing what it feels like to be left out of things and not wanting anyone to feel like no-one wants them around.  But of course I have to temper that with losing what I want in the whole mix, but it's getting easier and I think I'm spotting the ones to avoid sooner.

I have a friend from grad school who's currently dying in a city not too far from here. She reached out to tell me (we'd been not close for years but I remained loyal) and was glad when I offered to visit. And when I wrote her about my M news, she was very happy for me, asking several questions, etc. I was touched by that. Our lifestyles and values weren't compatible for consistent closeness, and the interest was not reciprocal for a long time which really hurt me. But I never hated her for abandoning me (we'd been very close when younger), just grieved over it and finally accepted it completely. This end-of-life conversation opportunity is meaningful to me. I'll be glad to give her comfort. Partly because even in her situation, she has the grace to care about what's happening in my life too.

I'm sorry about your friend, Hops.  It's good that you're able to come back together now.

Instant grace or belated grace, I'm ready for it any time it can happen. Can't be forced but it does appear sometimes. In the meantime, it does help me love (and other times, forget) myself when I can extend love a bit. (When I'm OVER-extended, which you can relate to so much Tupp -- I don't go looking for that. I just keep it in mind as a general principle...reciprocity needs to manifest EARLY, before a strong attachment. Then it's not painful to gently step back from a new connection BEFORE it becomes a friendship, when I can see reciprocity isn't going to happen there. I can do it without anger or blame or judgement now. But for a long time, I couldn't, because I took it so personally. (Thanks, Mom....)

Yes, I think taking time to assess the situation before committing is essential!  I did develop a kind of three strikes rule a few years back with new people - I'll initiate three times maximum and then step back (three invitations, three times I arrange getting together, three times I phone first).  And then I don't do it again and wait to see if they contact me.  Most people don't and yes, like you say, the rejection is hard to take but is better than doing it for years (as I feel I have been doing now!) and then realising it's not reciprocal

I've come to believe opportunities for friendship are actually abundant. All around me. It's been my own pain or fear that have prevented me from the enjoyable, easy, confident "catch and release" kind of approach. Like practicing. Trying it out with someone. Pleased when it works, let it go quite peacefully when it doesn't.

It's hard to just "go with the flow" when we need people and phamilies so deeply it feels like water. So we just have to keep giving ourselves water and working at it...how to grow connections.

I think the "how does that person not know this about me so they wouldn't suggest such an insensitive thing" is exactly what my friend who was mad at me for not taking care of her feelings (about the other friend she disliked being at my house that day) said to me.

And in my experience, she's risking wasting what has been a friendship we both valued. And because she decided to avoid me until "sometime in July", all this time after the stroke when I have been scared and needing to email or talk about it with close friends...not a peep of interest or concern from her. Very unfortunate, and I do miss talking to her. Yet...I can let her go. Despite a misunderstanding or disagreement, I would not shun someone who'd just been through that.

I just know I did nothing intentional to hurt her, she holds on fiercely to a "blame and judge" point of view, and if she can discard (or threaten to discard) me that readily, it's one of my weakest friendships. I'm going to reach out to her by the end of the month and ask if she'd like to meet and talk. If she does, I'll be glad. But if she doesn't, I'll realize she's stuck in a place where she can't. She has a complicated personality and told me often how important our friendship was. Yet--she can't forgive right now so she's dropped her end of "us" and I can't pick it up for her. Got my own end to hold. I'm sorry about it but not devastated. It's just a shame. Every friendship I have is important and I do hate to lose one. But when it happens, it's human, and the world won't ever run out of good people.

Your friend sounds like a numpty, Hops :)  The swimming thing wasn't/isn't a deal breaker for me, it's just part of the overall examining I'm doing of that particular friendship at the moment and weighing up the positives (at the moment I don't feel there are any) against the negatives (which at the moment feel plentiful).  She's not a bad person, none of them are, I just feel that perhaps our lives are so different now and going in such different directions that I really need people around me who (a) do the fifty fifty thing and (b) get where I'm at and so don't draw from me yet another explanation of why I can't do something (which seems to be the central focus of every conversation I have these days).  Although saying that I didn't explain it, just said no thanks, but again through being too tired to go through it.  I feel like I need friendships that don't feel like such hard work at the minute.  So yep, I don't think your friend is being reasonable about the situation and she shouldn't have ignored you after the stroke, regardless of whatever else she was miffed about.  I'm glad you're able to let go if need be.  I think that's the bit I'm still struggling with.  Loving people, even though they're not doing me any good, and trying to figure out whether to stay or go.

Yes to "talk and not think"! When a conversation is planned it's often awkward, that's all. It helps me in new situations with people to behave a little as though conversation is PLAY. What are we gonna talk about? I dunno! Oh, what she said makes me think of blah blah, and on it goes. It's a dance. Just take turns and be real while also allowing spontaneity. Express yourself. Let it be light and tune into eyes, expression, sound of their voice. If that all feels good, safe, welcoming, then share some of the darker things, the music in your life that is in a minor key. It's all music, all the same dance, we're all on the floor together.

love to you
Hops

Love to you, too xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2019, 02:50:34 AM »
G, were there other replies on here from you?  I thought I'd read some stuff and was going to write back this morning but can't find it now.  I might have got the threads muddled up, I'll keep hunting!  Lol xx

Meh

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #129 on: July 21, 2019, 03:02:43 AM »
Sorry I deleted it. Sometimes I try not to respond with something that sounds like advice. Like I think about something, write and  delete it. Also I was doing voice recognition so it was a little unclear anyways which doesn't help.

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #130 on: July 21, 2019, 04:25:59 AM »
Sorry I deleted it. Sometimes I try not to respond with something that sounds like advice. Like I think about something, write and  delete it. Also I was doing voice recognition so it was a little unclear anyways which doesn't help.

Aw, I got what you were saying but it was getting late and I was going to wait until today to write back :)  And I've forgotten a lot of it now as well lol, my brain is like a sieve, but I think it was about opening up to people and that being difficult?  Which I really identify with, although my brain is now saying is that what it said?!  My memory is so bad lol, is voice recognition where it types it for you as you speak? xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #131 on: July 21, 2019, 05:59:50 AM »
I've just realised, in the midst of my warbling mindset, that a big part of the problem I have with friends is that I don't like to discard them once I no longer have a use for them.  It feels like a very narcissistic thing to do - I've taken what I need from you and I have no use for you now.  It happens to me a lot and I hate it, so I hate doing it to other people.  But I have realised that you can just get to a point in life where certain friends don't fit any more and I think that's what's happening to me now.  I really want to be around people I can learn from and absorb information, advice and energy from.  I think perhaps I've done that for a people a lot in the past (and found it exhausting) but my time is very limited now (because of my son) so I feel like I want to spend time with people who at least understand what the situation is.  I find constantly explaining what we can and can't do exhausting and I feel like I spend a lot of my time with people who need the explanation.  Today I want to spend mostly in bed, and I can because I've very purposely not been arranging things so I can be flexible and meet my own needs rather than worrying about anyone else.  I think perhaps that's it; I just need to concentrate on moving forward in my own way and under my own steam and if people join in then great, but if people get left behind then perhaps it's just time to say that chapter's over and move on.  Growing isn't easy!  It feels bloody exhausting a lot of the time.

Twoapenny

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #132 on: July 24, 2019, 04:38:56 AM »
How do you guys cope with feelings of guilt?  I am struggling at the minute.  I want/need to reduce a couple of friendships - not cut them off completely or fall out with them but I am realising that I want more than some people can give me and rather than spending time and energy who can't give me what I need I want to keep the space open to look after myself and hopefully meet more people on the same wavelength.

I feel guilty about doing it - they're good people and they haven't done anything wrong, but I've realised for me that reciprocity (as Hops mentions) is important, as is regular contact.  It doesn't have to daily or for many many hours but a text message now and again with no agenda other than "how are you, what are you up to" means a lot to me and is something I want in my life (and am lucky enough to get from some people).  I also feel like I need deep connections, like the ones I have on here.  I want to be able to have some conversations in real life in the same way that I do with you guys.  So I need to free myself up a bit from this but feel guilty about doing it.  Any tips?

My other guilt point is my mum, partly brought on by something G says in one of her threads about her mum being defined by the men in her life.  I am aware that women's lib didn't exist when my mum was born; she grew up in a world where women were expected to look nice, keep house and keep quiet.  Her education was basic, even though she's intelligent, and her own home life wasn't nice.  Life was generally tougher in those days with fewer distractions (I think of the times I veg in front of the TV for nine hours to block out the loneliness or the boredom and ask myself what my mum would have been able to do years ago when it wasn't possible to watch telly for nine hours?).  Her turning to drink seems inevitable.  She is herself trapped in an abusive relationship, albeit a luxurious one, so she doesn't see it that way, but he controls everything she does.  So there are a lot of negatives there and she did grow up in a different world to the one I grew up in.  That said, she has had opportunities to do something about it and has chosen not to but again, sometimes the pain of facing up to what made you the way you are is too much.  None of that excuses the things she's done and I don't want to engage with her - poking the sleeping bear is the way Lighter puts it and that's absolutely right.  But there are times when I wish I could mother her and give her what she never got and what I think that little girl inside her still desperately wants.  So I'm feeling guilty about my mum at the moment.  I'm aware she's getting older and that she has health problems and it is alien to me to leave an older person to get on with it and not give two hoots.  It just jars with everything I think is important in the world, but at the same time I can't bear to be anywhere near her all the time her husband is still alive.  Just the thought of him still makes my flesh crawl.  I find myself picturing one scenario where my mum dies suddenly and that's it, there's no getting older and needing help stage.  Alternatively I see him dying first and there being a reconnection between myself and my mum (which realistically would be a disaster but some part of me feels that I need to see or speak to her before she dies).  I find the prospect of having to manage the least damaging scenario unappealing and alien but equally feel guilty about not being able to make things different.  Which I know makes no sense and I know there's no point to guilt - but it is still there :)

Anyway - picnic in the park this morning with the nice mums.  Son is doing art and craft at college, I've got the nice mums meeting, then some jobs to do in town and then getting my back done.  Son will be collected, we'll be home by about 3.30pm and for the first time in months I feel like I have a manageable workload in front of me.  That is all good.

Meh

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #133 on: July 24, 2019, 06:05:22 PM »
The emotional struggle is real. With both the friend situation and the mum situation.

Picnic sounds kinda pleasant.



« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 06:20:11 PM by Garbanzo »

Hopalong

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Re: Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves
« Reply #134 on: July 25, 2019, 01:20:07 AM »
I hope the rest of your day went well, Tupp.
Sounded like some good getting out.

About the guilt over friends who are less supportive than you need. Instead of framing it to yourself that you are "discarding" them, could you instead try thinking about them with gratitude without the guilt? More like privately "thanking and releasing them" (from your expectations)? IOW, you can stop bothering about as much contact, but leave the angst over it behind. You can love yourself AND old but ineffective friends. Just by thinking of them peacefully; loving them doesn't mean staying locked in a harmful painful yearning. You can love people without being much in touch. Maybe you feel gratitude for times when it did click well and meet mutual needs, and "releasing them" from keeping up with your present self. You have grown and changed and are seeking more. And that's okay and it's normal and LOADS of people evolve through relationships that way throughout life.

It doesn't make you an N or a "discarder" of people. Friendship is an active thing, if it's satisfying. And when it becomes clear it's not and can't be...it's okay to think of it as a relationship that worked once, but isn't active in your life now. With peace.

As to the Mom guilt, you do have compassion for her, but your compassion for your own hurt girl-self, who was so badly injured by her behavior, plus the monster's, has got to take priority. Perhaps if monster dies first, you'll be able to have some visits and closure with her. Even if it doesn't work out that way, you'll still find your way to that peace. You've punished yourself enough. And your Mom's age and declining health is sad for her as for every old person, but it comes to every single one of us and is a natural if poignant part of life.

You know you can't change that. But perhaps as you continue your deep work on self-healing and finding ways to carry on, you will somehow connect with the little seed of mothering in yourself that did not grow in her. It's not present in her body and her mind as she lives now, but mothering is still in you, and in the world around you. You can find it for yourself as so many have to do, and in doing that, I believe you will find peace about her. (She will find her own comforts as life winds down, because the seeds of that are in her, too. It's not on you to fix it for her, though in an ideal universe, of course you'd like to.)

Hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."