Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 107641 times)


Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #196 on: June 08, 2020, 10:07:17 AM »
Nope!
I just Google everything.

I
mean
everything.

Gotta go chop beets, making borscht...

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #197 on: June 08, 2020, 11:18:38 AM »
We (city/county combined) had 49 new cases yesterday, whereas a few days ago it was under 10.

I will remain very cautious until there are no new cases for several months, not weeks or days. And I do believe a major second wave is likely beginning in fall. I sometimes check daily cases (I'm in the area of a hotspot--our county was just mentioned on national news as one, though the city is so far less so), I ain't relaxing vigilance for a long time. I'll continue to depend on deliveries and stay out of stores. I miss community, especially happy crowds downtown on a summer evening, etc. Not enough to risk it but I miss it. For me the brightest moments now are safely distancing with one friend at a time on the patio. Or rarely, up to four including myself spaced out 8 feet. It's work to arrange but such a relief to just talk and celebrate looking at each other's faces. Winter's isolation will be tough. But like this, that too will pass.

I periodically read another shattering story about what having the virus is like even for people far younger than I, and what the long-term aftermath can be even if you survive it. Puts some tin in my spine.

WHO sez:
The incubation period for COVID-19, which is the time between exposure to the virus (becoming infected) and symptom onset, is on average 5-6 days, however can be up to 14 days. During this period, also known as the “pre-symptomatic” period, some infected persons can be contagious. Therefore, transmission from a pre-symptomatic case can occur before symptom onset.

Air hugs,
Hops

It is a worry if the case numbers are going up, Hops.  We will be continuing to stay in, with the exception of the library if that opens next month (if the numbers are still going down).  I have been reading that even mild Covid is knocking fit and healthy people for six for many weeks/months afterwards and that those who are in ICU but then recover seem to be left with ongoing lung problems.  They do have a couple of experts following progress on recovery and long term effects; I'm finding the doctors on Twitter very useful at the moment.  And yes, the passing it on when not showing symptoms is a big worry, along with people who have symptoms but simply can't afford to take time off work.  They're stopping the furlough scheme here soon so a lot of people will be going back to work regardless and many places don't pay sick pay so some will work even if they have symptoms.  So I've not got the bunting out yet but I am heartened that the people I know who work for the ambulance service and those with kids frequently in hospital are reporting fewer incidents.  I have an overwhelming urge to be a mad lady and hug everyone I see once it's safe to do so.  And I know a lot of people who are ignoring government advice and staying in, even though they're being told they don't have to now xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #198 on: June 08, 2020, 11:22:21 AM »
Our cases here were definitely dropping--below 100 new cases a day in the county where I live. Then the governor of the state started opening businesses at a fast clip. When he opened bars at 25% capacity only and with social distancing(yeah, right)and said that face masks were recommended but would not be enforced, I thought well here we go.

All last week our new cases were above 250 per day and on one day was almost 300. So we aren't done yet. Bad news is, I dont know what it would take to close everything down again. There was a LOT of anger about closed hair salons, etc. and there were people who just refused to stay closed with no consequences, so I expect they will decide to just let it run its course. Not looking forward to this.

Of course, most flus do dissipate in the summer for unknown reasons, so maybe the lower hospitalizations mean it will be milder? I dont know. They have really changed the way they disclose the numbers to the public. There's no way to easily track it anymore on the government sites. We have had daily marches all week so I dont even know what it will look like, but I'm not going out in it. I'm grateful that my son is working from home and isnt bringing it in.

I'm with you, Hops. I'm sticking with deliveries for the foreseeable future. I agree that we will probably have a second wave in the fall. I am dreading that because everyone is getting so weary of the isolation already. It just makes sense that it would do what flu historically has done. I feel like I can get almost anything I need by delivery, but I do miss ice cream. No point in trying to get that in 95 degree weather!

CB

That is a worry that cases are that high again CB, they really haven't handled this well at all.  New Zealand have declared themselves Covid free now - imagine having someone that decisive and caring in charge?  How differently this could have all been handled if all leaders were like Jacinda Ardern.

Our supermarket has a freezer in the delivery van for icecream so we are stocked up :) I hope you can get some soon! xx

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #199 on: June 09, 2020, 02:18:29 PM »
Well the death rate has jumped again and quite sharply too which is a bit of a worry.  Still no sign of leadership and the rampant racism sweeping through the country is really frightening.  People openly shouting racist remarks in the street, torrents of racial abuse on Twitter, a black broadcaster was asked on a live show today why she doesn't leave if she doesn't like it (by a white broadcaster who is clearly so sure of his position that he isn't concerned about saying it on live telly!).  I've honestly never seen people being so openly racist and it really scares me.

In other news, though, the library are starting a click and collect service.  You select what you want online and they have it ready at the door for you so completely contact free.  Brilliant idea and it means I don't have to walk behind son sanitising everything he goes near which is what I thought I'd have to do once they opened again.

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #200 on: June 16, 2020, 05:56:59 AM »
Death rate down again now which is good but it's still much higher than it would usually be for this time of year.  It's weird how your brain gets used to things - if I'd read six months ago that 882 more people had died in the last week than would usually at this time of year I'd have felt devastated; now it feels almost unreal?  The number has reduced and that was the bit I focused on.  Self preservation, perhaps?  We are continuing to stay in, though xx

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #201 on: June 16, 2020, 09:39:30 AM »
It is disturbing and also fascinating, in a creepy way, that the dual infections of the pandemic virus and also the racism virus are exploding to the surface at the same time. I think amazing histories will be written about this time.

Coronavirus is exposed for its reality as people sicken and die. Terrible price to pay for ignorance and resistance to science, but it is a real price and in the aftermath, or when a new threat to public health is announced, the chances of compliance to recommendations might be increased.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #202 on: June 16, 2020, 08:15:15 PM »
Let's follow the science;
Worldwide daily deaths rose rapidly in March and then peaked in early to mid April and have declined steadily and without interruption since then.
At the same time new cases also ramped up quickly in March and then leveled off in early April and have increased at a similar rate to the decline in deaths. Declining deaths with rising cases means, necessarily, a declining death rate.
That is over two months of the death rate steadily declining worldwide. The latest CDC numbers indicate an overall infection fatality rate in the US of .26% and still declining. Reportedly a typical flu IFR is .1%. If it continues to decline it may very well end up with an IFR at or below the flu's.
Some studies indicate up to 60% of unexposed people are already immune or at least resistant to infection because they have limited immunity from the antibodies to similar coronaviruses.
In the US ~20 people under 15 years old have died of it. That is a considerably lower death rate than an ordinary flu.
Neil Ferguson, the guy at Imperial College who came up with the faulty model so many governments relied on, himself said at least 60% of the people who would die from it were not going to live out the year anyway.
Over 40% of US deaths were in nursing homes even though less than 1% of the population live in nursing homes . This was considerably exacerbated by several governors forcing nursing homes to take in infected patients who were discharged from hospitals.
We were told we had to be locked down to "flatten the curve". Honest people admitted this was only to reduce hospital loads and that it would not significantly reduce cases, but merely spread them out over time. Logically that meant we would have a slow decline in cases and possibly even uptrends as we stretched out the curve. Now when that is occurring in those places like CA and TX where the curve was flattened we're being told we need another lockdown even though there is no significant hospital pressure.
In those states which did not successfully flatten the curve like NY and NJ their cases went through the roof and have declined precipitously and are bumping along the bottom because the wave crested high and fast rather than low and slow. In the end there is little evidence either way significantly reduces overall cases or deaths.
Some goofs talk about shutting the world down until a vaccine is produced. No coronavirus has ever had a successful vaccine developed for it. SARS 1 was in 2003-4 and had a fatality rate of 10%. Sixteen years later there is still no vaccine for it. MERS had a fatality rate of ~35%. Eight years later; no vaccine.

The simple fact is this disease, once it escaped China, which occurred partly because while China shut down internal travel from Wuhan they allowed international travel from there for a month, it was probably ultimately unstoppable and will eventually become ubiquitous at least for a time. It may eventually fade away but with the millions of carriers that were headed to Italy, New York and all over the rest of the world, whether Chinese or tourists returning to their home country guaranteed it would eventually become endemic worldwide.
It is preposterous to think anyone could track and trace and quarantine the hundreds of millions of people who have already either had it or been around someone who has. And if you could you would only slow it down temporarily and meanwhile reduce our standard of living to the stone age, when diseases killed pretty much everyone the sabre toothed tigers didn't eat.
  How many lives will be lost and ruined worldwide due to the depression the overreaction caused? They can't be tidily summed up in quasi accurate death counts like Covid deaths but it is almost certain that the "cure" was worse than the disease.

The only sensible thing to have done, which many of us said from the start, was to truly quarantine and protect the most vulnerable while allowing those for whom it is no more dangerous than a bad flu to continue to live their lives and get the inevitable over with. The trillions in wealth destroyed was for nothing. And those trillions don't just buy iphones and video games. They buy food for starving people in destitute countries and vaccines and treatment for diseases that kill thousands and millions every year like TB and malaria, including and especially kids, not 90 year olds about ready to check out anyway.
In the end all of the  chicken little, safety at any cost foolishness probably made no significant change in the long term pervasiveness and toll of Covid-19 but did cause vast damage to the lives of billions and may very well end up costing not only trillions in lost wealth but more and younger healthier people their lives while saving almost no one from the Covid bug itself.
Lots of virtue got signalled by lots of big shot government dopes and nerdy little billionaires, but for the rest of us it was a lose/lose.

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #203 on: June 16, 2020, 09:34:08 PM »
Hi Mud--
Thoughtful analysis, with lots of logic.

Only part that trips me up is:
quarantine and protect the most vulnerable while allowing those for whom it is no more dangerous than a bad flu

It's not that predictable who's in danger, because so many underlying conditions go undiagnosed. There are too many severely ill patients in their 30s or 40s for age-based assumptions to be safe ones, imo, although no question older folks are in greater danger. Articles I've read about surviving this disease when it's not just a "bad flu" are pretty compelling. Chronic severe lung damage and other aftermaths have their costs too. To each their own concern.

It's a tough call--personally, economically, morally. The biological and social pull of humans getting together will mean it continues to bounce through populations in one wave or two (or who knows) and life may never be exactly as it was.

Probably the most important thing will be what we need anyway for a host of other reasons--to look for ways to help each other, heal our communities not just medically but socially--and carry on. Pointing fingers will go on forever, because humans, but I hope that eventually becomes less exciting than finding ways to help each other. Maybe positive changes in consumption, lifestyle and economic priorities will happen. Maybe explosions in creativity and invention, eco-friendlier agribusiness, health and lifestyle habits, community support, and other humane trends will ensue.

It's good to hear you. Hope you've been well, and those you love. Start a Mud thread!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Meh

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2020, 03:42:49 PM »
So I heard today was the first day of a local women's low-end retailer opening up. Neighbor told me they saw a LONG line of women in queue to get in.

Personally I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.

I can only do my best to live my life and promote what I can I guess, i don't even do a great job of promoting culture in my own small bubble. I mean I do a little bit, not sure that everybody appreciates it. I will not give up in this endeavor!

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2020, 05:32:57 PM »
Preach!

Quote
I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.


Sign me up. Me too.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #206 on: June 21, 2020, 06:43:49 AM »
So I heard today was the first day of a local women's low-end retailer opening up. Neighbor told me they saw a LONG line of women in queue to get in.

Personally I wish we could have a revolution where people bartered in the arts, literature, community, other things beyond filling boredom with shopping for a prize within racks and racks of junk.

I can only do my best to live my life and promote what I can I guess, i don't even do a great job of promoting culture in my own small bubble. I mean I do a little bit, not sure that everybody appreciates it. I will not give up in this endeavor!

Gosh I like the sound of that, G.  There are odd little things here that really make me smile, like old phoneboxes that have been turned into little community libraries (you just grab any book you fancy and return when you've finished reading it), and racks of coats in the library that you can just help yourself to if you're cold.  I find shopping pretty unfulfilling.  I do like being able to buy things that are hand made or fair trade or something like that as a little reminder of a nice day out maybe but the thought of queuing up to buy clothes or something just doesn't interest me.  I love the idea of bartering or sharing time.

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #207 on: June 22, 2020, 03:20:25 AM »
We're in a weird kind of parallel universe here.  The alert level has been dropped, despite the fact we've not got to the stage you're supposed to be at to drop the alert level.  It's definitely a business decision rather than a health based one.

Masks are advised but only mandated on public transport.  I do not feel comfortable taking son to public places where others aren't wearing a mask.  It seems to have been well established now that wearing masks is more about protecting others than protecting yourself so son wearing a mask isn't going to do much for him if others aren't so we'll still be staying in as much as possible.

The student nurses who dropped everything they were doing to join the Covid fight have now been told they won't have their contracts honoured because they're no longer needed.  People are horrified and I've no idea why; this government treats anyone who isn't super rich with absolute contempt and I just don't understand why people don't see that.  There's also no evidence that herd immunity works as there's no evidence yet that having this once stops people having it again, yet that's the approach we're taking here.

So we're in this weird kind of limbo where things are opening up but without sufficient measures in place to really try to get on top of this which means life for millions of us will continue indoors, without support (even the most vulnerable who were ordered to stay in and had food parcels delivered are having their support withdrawn and will have to fend for themselves if they don't have friends or neighbours to help out).  It's a very, very bizarre experience.

Hopalong

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #208 on: June 22, 2020, 09:52:14 AM »
It sounds very Hunger Games-ish in a way, and I've occasionally worried about complete social breakdown. I am already sure we are heading for a new Great Depression, and the generations since then have become less and less able to focus together.

I also think those pessimistic thoughts may not be a crystal ball, but just may reflect the cumulative effect of so many weeks alone here, most days, and how narrow my routine is (even though I do get to go to M's).

Cases continue to climb here (three times what they were a few weeks ago), but this town is slow to reopen. Perhaps because it's a highly educated area, perhaps because there's a lot of wealth (and a small middle class and poor working people who have to live an hour+ away from town and its resources, and must drive in to earn their minimum wage). There are far fewer cases in town than in the surrounding rural areas where most service workers come from.

Suffering here will be less than in big cities or areas of mass unemployment; the university is a behemoth and the largest economic contributor to the area. But it's here already and will increase. I notice that in this privileged city, most of the grief about small business suffering is focused on restaurants. I will also miss many that won't recover, but think it's ironic that the privilege of dining out is one reason so much emphasis is on our famous foodie scene. I would like to know more about the other small businesses that involve necessary things in small scale and already battle big box stores...those need more protection from the lucky, imo.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #209 on: June 22, 2020, 10:43:04 AM »
Yes it's hard to know how things are going to go after this.  At the beginning I was hopeful that it would be a huge reset for the environment, for putting people before profit, spending time together and so on.  But that only seemed to last a couple of weeks (here, anyway) and since then it seems to be two camps; those who are sacrificing a lot and those who are doing what they like and don't seem to care about anyone else.  The media's very manipulative; lots more focus on statues than on Covid deaths; someone stabbed three people at the weekend and it's been all over the news for days as a terrorist attack.  It's terribly sad but over a hundred people died of covid the same day and that seems to have become acceptable now.  The racism is like nothing I've seen before; presumably because we didn't have the internet before so I was more protected from it.  But people post the racist abuse they receive on Twitter and it's vile; I genuinely had no idea that people were still using words like 'coon' and 'nigger'.  Truly disgusting.

So the aftermath worries me.  We've an awful government and alternative options aren't terribly encouraging.  Brexit is steaming ahead and that's going to destroy us.  The EU is far from perfect but we have good trade deals in place and freedom of movement is an amazing opportunity for young people, in particular.  People are leaving in their droves and I don't blame them; I'd be off if I got the chance.  But we can all only do what we can do, right?  Just try our best to keep healthy and well and then just hope, I suppose.