My Stepdaughter the Narcissist

[bean2]

Hi,
I posted here the last time almost 10 years ago.  I am back, because, while I solved the problems related to my narcissistic parents (BPD mom), for the most part, I just found out that my stepdaughter is most likely an N.

My husband and I have been together almost 6 years, and I never even saw it coming.  Recently, due to an episode with his youngest daughter, we reached out to a marriage counselor, and he said "sounds like your daughter is an N."  Wow!

My husband really has no idea what this means, but I do. 

I am so confused, hurt, angry, all the old feelings are rushing back.  I don't know how to handle this.

Basically, what happened is that I texted my two stepdaughters who are both adult children of my husband and got the strangest response.  The younger one convinced the older stepdaughter that my behavior was out of line.  She called my husband and screamed at him for about a half hour that "it was not RIGHT" what I was doing (basically, just trying to be their Mom, and giving advice, about COVID-19).  She gave my husband an ultimatum, that if he did not divorce me immediately, he would Never see the grandkids again (both girsl have 2 kids each).

My husband and I are really at a loss of what to do next.

Bean

p.s. I have really missed this board, but honestly, was glad to not "need" ya'll anymore 
Really glad to see the board is still active and hope someone remembers me

[Hopalong]

Hi Bean,
I remember your name, but unfortunately, not the original story when you posted back then.

I'm sorry to hear of the upset in your family; wish it could be written off to the pandemic. It sounds like personality conflicts that have been brewing for a while. Do you have a therapist you can talk to, even if by video, about all this?

The daughters' response sounds so over the top, it's mystifying. I keep thinking of Carolyn Hax in the Washington Post. She just had a thing about "shoulds" today that I thought was really well done. It had to do with unsolicited advice.

I hope you'll find support and inner peace. I can't imagine how distressing this must be.

Warmly
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Nice to see you, Bean   Sorry to hear that things are difficult.  I do think that the current pressurised environment is causing all sorts of problems to erupt, particularly with families.  Hopefully everyone will calm down a bit if given a bit of time and space.  Is it possible for everyone to just keep to themselves for a little while and let the air clear a bit? xx

[bean2]

I would like to chalk it all up to "this is the pandemic making us all angry and anxious," but how do we reconcile that it is devaluing and abusive to give your Dad an ultimatum such as this?  My husband's younger daughter asked him to choose between his adult daughters and his wife.

This is also, unfortuanately, not the first time she has done this.  Right after we started dating (5 years ago) my husband got the same ultimatum from her, and she at that time also convinced her sister.   Not long after the sister caved and called us, but it took the younger one about 6 months to come around and it's because her husband and mother in law convinced her to get along with me. 

BTW, I should mention the ultimatum was given 6 weeks ago. We have not heard from either daughter since, until this week, as my husband's birthday was this week.  They both texted him on his birthday "happy bithday" but that was it.

We are waiting for the younger one to call (similar to before) and state "OK Dad, time is up, what's your choice going to be?"  She really is an angry person.  Judgemental, always thinks she's right, doesn't ever want to seek help for her issues.  Her biological mother is an alcoholic and she doesn't have a relationship with her.  They really fought a lot when she was growing up, have never gotten along.

I want to add that the way this ended before is the N daughter called her Dad crying on day.  She had a story about how a guy came into the store she was working at (she sells makeup) and "started choking her."  She said it was really scary and she almost died, and that's when she decided to call her Dad (after again not talking to him for months as she wasn't getting her way, he wasn't breaking up with me).  I was like "Are you kidding me?" to my husband, I said this story makes no sense!  She didn't call the police?  I said Babe, she made it up for attention.  I said, there is no way a store manager would not have made her call the police!  I said, what a manipulative way to get you to talk to her!

Anyway, waiting for what she comes up with this time.


For the most part, we are extremely close to our older daughter who is divorced with two boys.  We see them a lot, especially in the last year, as she brings them to our house and they love us.  The younger one is married with a baby and a toddler and we rarely see her.  She is religious and gives us the impression we're "not quite good enough" as parents.  There have been episodes (my husband is just now telling me this) where she has called my husband and screamed at him because he was not a good father to her when she was younger.  She lays guilt trips on him and I said, really, you are her punching bag babe.  Boundaries!!  Don't let her call you and scream at you.  I imagine she does it to her Mom too.

I think she's an oppourtunist and saw my advice giving as a window to abuse her Dad.  Normally, I am not an advice giver to these kids, they're adults and are raising kids of their own.  I literally walk on egghshells around the younger one, so as not to piss her off.  The older one, we are actually getting much closer.  We have helped her emotionally and financially in the past.  I think the younger one is jeaolous of the relationship I have formed with her sister.



bean

[bean2]

Twoapenny,
You are spot on about keeping space.  Space, when dealing with a narcissist, can mean the difference between life and death.

It is OK, actually essential, to say to an N "OK, I hear you and I'm sorry I hurt you, but this is not my stuff to carry, so I'll take back my space now.  Thank you."

Right now I feel like the extra space is filling my brain with Anxiety, and I feel the need for more control than I normally want, and now I'm worried about taking care of an adult child.

I should have probably clarified, my oldest stepdaughter relies on us financially to the point my husband is a co-signer on her apartment, since she divorced her husband, she doesn't make enough money to qualify for a place by herself.  And she makes no attempt to find friends she could live with, and split expenses with.  Her plan has always been and likely always will be "Dad."  (I knew this when I married my husband, it is not a big deal).  It doesn't bother me, however, when she pretty boldly told her Dad and I "I'm not worried about getting Coronavirus....if I get it I will survive" all the parental insticts of both me and her Dad kicked in.  I mean into high gear.  Her ex-husband, who she shares her kids with is diabetic and likely won't survive the virus if he gets it.

Second thing significant and of note:  This kid is recently out of drug and alcohol rehab, she only barely missed going to prison just two years ago.  She almost lost custody of her kids.  Don't get me wrong, she's a wonderful person who made a mistake - all of us do - but there's a back story to the "advice."  It's funny, we goto church and the pastor says "raise your hand if you have kids."  My husband and I don't raise our hands.  Then the pastor says "raise your hands if you're done raising your kids because they're out of your house."  We raise our hands.  OK, the pastor says, you are still a parent.  Parentlng is for life.  This is so true.  Harder if you're a stepparent.

So the advice...It seems mean but maybe it's kind considering we are her backup plan.  I read an article that 40% of millenials go to Mom and Dad for financial help at times.  That is a lot of adult "kids" relying on their parents!

Also, I was not unkind.  I simply said her and her sister should call their Dad, since he's terrified of getting coronavirus cause he has asthma.  She is Miss Attitude, like "I will not try to Not get it and I don't care if I give it to my kids -  I read an article that women and kids survive it." My thought:  this is the irresponsible and disrepectful attitude that got her into trouble before (with the drugs).   

In some ways, I feel like she is anti-social and just goes against the norm to be unique.   Does this make sense? 

See where "advice" leads.  Now I need advice from those here.  lol
ugh

bean

[lighter]

Oh, Bean.  How difficult and chaotic things are for you right now.

I can only remind you of healthy boundaries and holding them.

If adult children make choices... they make them.  You can't change them and neither can your husband.

What you can do is state and hold new boundaries, to keep you and your DH safe, then follow through with consequences, whatever you feel is necessary.

It's not an option to allow the girls to give their asthmatic father coronavirus.  It's not your job to do anything but wish the girls well and take good care of yourselves.

You and your DH can always say.... "Let us know how that works out for you" instead of reacting to the provocative things the girls say about getting covid 19.  It does seem like you're hearing things meant to shock and upset.  In any case, you can't control what they do or think. 

Accepting you can't change it would be helpful to your mental health, IME.  What does worrying to to help it?  Nothing. 

Doing what you can.... sending letters or messages about safety was a choice and you did that. 

The girls are reacting. 

Your advice seems wise and appropriate.  Is there anything else you can do?  Putting boundaries in place around the girls and grandkids exposing or not exposing you and your DH seems reasonable. 

Once you;ve done everything you can think of.... maybe go back to doing what you enjoy.. and trying to get your DH to put the problem on the shelf for now too.  Worrying doesn't help anything.  It weakens your immune system and makes it more difficult to be responsive when you need to, IME.

Making peace with not seeing the grandkids for a while seems necessary.  What can you do to keep in touch with them... so you have joy and connection?

I really believe accepting the girl's choices will help you and your DH think more clearly and problem solve more logically through this.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

Hi Bean! I think I remember you. My life has changed quite a lot since you were last here. I kinda blog about it - or complain about it - variously, on the Farm Doins thread.

But relative to the situation you find yourself in, my 42 yr old D is now living with me; we're building her a house on my property. She is pretty much a drama queen; yes, angry at times... beyond reason angry; and that's been stressing me out. Not so much AT me, as at the problems in her head she's working out.

But I know she's smart enough to work through most of her issues; with the shutdowns... no one's working, so she didn't have to scramble to figure out what to do. We already had a plan in place. The upsets kinda go in cycles around here. Not that I've been able to clearly see what the cycle is - or what prompts things to go south in such a big way. The "mom reflex" - to take her stuff on, as my own problem and try to help her sort it out... seems to be unavoidable for me. Just as it is, frankly - for her - in reverse.

I DO find myself talking a lot more about boundaries these days. And she is taking in the pertinant information and processing it. And somehow, we seem to keep on rolling and adapting around here, maybe because of our long-ago agreement that no matter how angry she makes me, or how stressed and uncomfortable I am by what gets laid out in front of me... that I still love her, and we're on the same side.

I think she's working on the kernel of co-dependence that's been an issue for her for some time. And it doesn't really help that I have my own battle/struggle with it. So we kinda hobble on together through it. And I think her definition of certain terms is also kinda changing. Makes it hard to be a parent sometimes.

When all that happens, the only antidote I know works, is to "check out" of the group activities here on the farm... and back into my own personal life... and my dreams, hopes, and druthers. I will put time & energy focus into people who aren't doing that particular thing or following those paths. Give myself a chance to just be ME for awhile. Maybe something like that would help you? I dunno.

[Twoapenny]

Twoapenny,
You are spot on about keeping space.  Space, when dealing with a narcissist, can mean the difference between life and death.

It is OK, actually essential, to say to an N "OK, I hear you and I'm sorry I hurt you, but this is not my stuff to carry, so I'll take back my space now.  Thank you."

Right now I feel like the extra space is filling my brain with Anxiety, and I feel the need for more control than I normally want, and now I'm worried about taking care of an adult child.

I should have probably clarified, my oldest stepdaughter relies on us financially to the point my husband is a co-signer on her apartment, since she divorced her husband, she doesn't make enough money to qualify for a place by herself.  And she makes no attempt to find friends she could live with, and split expenses with.  Her plan has always been and likely always will be "Dad."  (I knew this when I married my husband, it is not a big deal).  It doesn't bother me, however, when she pretty boldly told her Dad and I "I'm not worried about getting Coronavirus....if I get it I will survive" all the parental insticts of both me and her Dad kicked in.  I mean into high gear.  Her ex-husband, who she shares her kids with is diabetic and likely won't survive the virus if he gets it.

Second thing significant and of note:  This kid is recently out of drug and alcohol rehab, she only barely missed going to prison just two years ago.  She almost lost custody of her kids.  Don't get me wrong, she's a wonderful person who made a mistake - all of us do - but there's a back story to the "advice."  It's funny, we goto church and the pastor says "raise your hand if you have kids."  My husband and I don't raise our hands.  Then the pastor says "raise your hands if you're done raising your kids because they're out of your house."  We raise our hands.  OK, the pastor says, you are still a parent.  Parentlng is for life.  This is so true.  Harder if you're a stepparent.

So the advice...It seems mean but maybe it's kind considering we are her backup plan.  I read an article that 40% of millenials go to Mom and Dad for financial help at times.  That is a lot of adult "kids" relying on their parents!

Also, I was not unkind.  I simply said her and her sister should call their Dad, since he's terrified of getting coronavirus cause he has asthma.  She is Miss Attitude, like "I will not try to Not get it and I don't care if I give it to my kids -  I read an article that women and kids survive it." My thought:  this is the irresponsible and disrepectful attitude that got her into trouble before (with the drugs).   

In some ways, I feel like she is anti-social and just goes against the norm to be unique.   Does this make sense? 

See where "advice" leads.  Now I need advice from those here.  lol
ugh

bean

It's a difficult one, Bean, and I think it can be hard to know where to draw the line between caring, helping out and just generally being 'family' and what you consider unacceptable behaviour and how you want to deal with that.  It sounds like the safest thing at the moment is for you to stick no contact until the virus risk has passed, given that she's not willing to take precautions, so that your hubby isn't at risk.  It's hard knowing people aren't taking it seriously, and for many they can catch it and not become terribly ill.  I've put three friendships on hold since this started because their attitude p**sed me off so much that I just need to avoid them until this is all over because I don't need the extra stress or upset right now.  I need calm, considered, stress free interactions, not people who raise my blood pressure.  I had a similarly odd reaction from a friend who got very angry at me when I urged her to take care (she's of the opinion that nothing much is going on and the papers are making things up).  It's bizarre when people get angry when you're doing something that most people would see as caring so I don't know quite why it happens like that but it sounds as if not hearing from her for a while might be a blessing! You can only hope the kids don't catch it or that if they do, they aren't too sick with it.  Very tough situation for you xx

[bean2]

Thank you lighter, sKeptiKal and Twopenny.  I read your replies and it had a surreal calming effect on me.  Just knowing people heard me and get it helps me so much.  I want to focus on these kinds words, and imagine your reassurance like a big hug from some old friends...and just let that feeling envelope me.

I will reply later, I loved the posts so much I will reread them a few more times this week, and just focus on the positives, like you all said.

bean

[Hopalong]

Hi Bean,
I fell short when you asked for help, I'm sorry.

What I thought when I read about your N situation was just a sorrowful:
--You can't change a narcissist.
--You can ONLY change how you react and take care of yourself in their presence.

I spent years proving to myself and others that my mother was an N, and explaining to anyone who was interested what I'd learned, from reading tons of articles and books about Nism. It was helpful to me to talk about it with a trusted few, but it didn't change her.

It never could. So all I was left with was learning to set boundaries clearly and calmly and act on them, not expect anyone else to leap to my side saying "You're right! She's wrong!", and do the long hard therapy work of reclaiming my sense of self. To begin to realize that my boundaries were porous and mushy because she'd raised me and that the only solution was not going to be anger, but emotional detachment.

There are actually some very good videos on YouTube about narcissism and how to better protect yourself. Just type "narcissism" into the YT search box and explore. Dr. Todd Grande has some very matter of fact ones on how to react and how to interact with an N in ways that help you not get triggered or sucked in.

I do think one very big release was when I accepted that in these situations, a narcisssist or N-enablers would never see it as I did. Never fully understand what I saw. Never recognize quite how damaging it was to be in a toxic dance with an N.

I think all you can do in a family situation with an N, is learn step by step how to disengage and release the idea of winning or getting them to change. YOUR peace, YOUR state of mind, YOUR ability to detach, is what you can work on.

What do you think you want to do? Do you have the ability to see a therapist to get regular 3-D support as you work through all this? We can always chime in too, but nothing beats an ally in the real.

Hope for you,
Hops

[seastorm]

Hi Bean,

after reading your post what stood out for me was the part about your  step daughter nearly having her children removed and about her drinking problem. People who are deep into addiction act as you describe and create big chaos in their families. It looks like narcissism but it is more like arrested development. For instance, demanding that your husband choose between her and you  rings like the tantrum of a four year old. To protect yourself from getting sucked into the bottomless chaos of an alcoholic, the only place I know of to go to is AlAnon.  I dead give away to someone who is into addiction is that they blame, blame, blame.  For all I know, the daughter is a Narcissist but at least with addiction she has a chance at recovery. Both  require you to distance yourself and learn everything you can from the experts.

PS  Don't take it personally. Seriously,

[Hopalong]

Hi again Bean,
This might not be straight on topic but thought this doc's videos on Narcissism might be of interest to you.

The particular video I watched this morning startled me, with how I related to the second category: Isolated Child. It's just one example, because he has posted many. He seems kind, rational and reliable to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPAZTF2mja8

Hugs
Hops

[bean2]

Hops,
I really wish you were my friend in 3-D real life.  Sometimes, I forget how much you have helped me.  Ever word you have ever spent time to write me, resonated.  I know this, because 10 years later, I remember you helped me.  This truly feels like reconnecting with an old friend. Please do not feel bad or like you fell short. because you didn't.  btw, congrats on your new beau  

sigh

lighter, I also remember you, you are kind of unforgetable

seastorm, I think you were like the original poster? 

Twoapenny, yup, remember you too, like a rock, quiet but calm

sKeptiKal, I do also remember your kind [quirky] words and consistency - that is a compliment, personally i love quirkiness
 
I am coming back to this board after almost 10 years years of being away. 


everything resonates, and I love this attention...but, I think seastorm is right

I am a co-dependent to someone who has a serious addiction.  This is the elephant in the room right?   I am referring to my Non-N stepdaughter, the flying moneky to the N stepdaughter I am talking about in this thread


I do have a therapist.  thank u for asking.  still trying to overcome the shock of it and I promise to reply to each and every tidbit.  right now, I think I'm just venting.  repeat if you have to, so I hear you

bean

I am so sad.

[bean2]

Hops,
I watched the video, and understand the isolation an N mother creates.  To some extent, I experienced all of this growing up

competition
secrecy
constantly being told about my N mother's sexual abuse by her father (I didn't know how to process this)
nothing positive to say (we weren't allowed to tell outsiders about the dysfunction)
no reason or logic!!
my mother was a master of finding someone to blame, BUT, I did know who was telling the truth (I was the hero child, the only one to see the facade and rebel)
envy and creating a shiny facade
could only show happiness if it makes the mother happy
daughter has no where to go with happiness (so I learned to not show happiness)
violence, rejection, no provocation required (hitting with hand for no reason, throwing water or objects at a child to keep them off guard, gave me a black eye)
everyone was afraid of my mother
Have to keep my mother in "a good mood" she constantly screamed at us we were brats
no basic safety, no protection


Don't know if much has changed.  I lowered my expectations a lot, I know that.  Also, I cut my N mom offf for 7 years, and reconciled with her only about 7 years ago.  She hardly messes with me at all now.  Then again, my mom is 74 years old.

Do you think I'm being re-traumatized?   I do really feel bad for the kids of my N stepdaughter.  I gotta resist the urge to jump in and "save" them.  They are 3 mos old and 2 yrs old.  I do wonder if she beats them.  seriously

bean

[Hopalong]

I don't know if you are being re-traumatized, Bean, but it sure sounds as though recent things are setting up a nasty whirlpool for you.

Where is your H in all this? Seems like all the advice/articles I read about this toxic kind of stuff say that it's the direct relative, particularly a husband or son, who needs to deal directly with their own toxic relative. Not the relative by marriage (wife/stepmother). They need to be defending or advocating for their own children or coparenting relationship with an ex or ex's child, not letting the "new" woman step in and take on that task as her own. Those boundaries protect you and them (all the advice folks say).

That's kind of abstract but might help you move back a step from focusing your own fix-it fantasies on your SD. It's "stay in your lane" advice but I've read it over and over again.

If you're not seeing the kids you don't have direct evidence of them being beaten, right? As you describe her I doubt they're having a happy time, but again, seems any intervention or improvement needs to start with your husband/her father rather than you?

Sounds to me (and the advice columnists I'm aping here) as though the healthy step would be counseling for yourself and possibly couples counseling so you can have support asking your H to face facts about his family situation. If he won't, then you have other options. If he will, your job would be just to support everyone in buildng the healthiest system possible and try not to stir the pot or add tension.

I'm really sorry you are seeing him hurt and imagining them hurt too. It's got to be very triggering and hard not to vibrate to. Quite hellish. YOU TOO deserve some support from an objective distance.

Counseling, I think. A safe place to vent and get the situation into cope-able shape in your mind.

Hang in,
Hops

PS I'd missed your other post where you mentioned having a therapist. I'm glad you do, and sorry you're feeling so sad. What matters most of all, imn-ho, is what YOU think. Sometimes venting stuff helps clarify it, often does for me. Other times, depending on what I'm doing upstairs in my head, I find myself circling the drain (which I did for years I think). Wish you much luck in finding your balance again.