Author Topic: great Carolyn Hax moments  (Read 4886 times)

Hopalong

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great Carolyn Hax moments
« on: August 07, 2020, 03:16:18 PM »
[the last line is priceless]

Q: Helpppp Meeeeee
Carolyn - I have read your columns and chats for several decades and I am 100% happier in my life having incorporated your advice. Thanks! I need some help. I moved back in with my 70ish year old parents, partly because I have a chronic illness and partly because they are 70ish and can't do everything by themselves. Ha, did you believe that? Cause I did! The truth is that my father does everything he is not supposed to do, all the time. This is after doctors' advice (plus some other peoples' advice) to stop, slow down, and ask for help. Guess who recently ripped his fingernail off and broke his finger putting his hand under the mower while it was running? Just for a second! Could have happened to anyone! Today the Tropical Storm is coming and suddenly he needs to clean every one of the gutters out before it gets here. WHY. This is after my mother and I spent a solid 30 mins convincing him not to mow the grass for various reasons. He agreed but then GUESS WHO HEARS THE LAWN MOWER RUNNING LATER IN THE DAY. Me. I hear the lawn mower running. WHO IS SUPERVISING HIM??? Not my mother since, as we've established, he doesn't listen to her either. Somehow I have adopted the worlds tallest toddler. There is a general idea in our house that, ha ha, this is how all men are in retirement and oh-well we just have to put up with that! Ha ha! They are all negligent and liars? I think we can expect better out of our retired men than this. I would be less frustrated if after these events that he creates for himself, he wasn't in pain. None of his body parts work correctly, which is a surprised to no one but him. If I remind him that cleaning all the gutters is going to make his shoulders hurt, like 3 weeks ago when all the the items in the attic had to be brought down and inspected - he says, Yup. As if, this is the price we pay to be human. He believes of this stuff to be NECESSARY and needs to be completed THIS SECOND. He is going to HURT himself. I do not believe this to be pandemic-related as he has never been able to sit still or relax. Is there someone we can get him to listen to and stop this madness? I'm so tired

A: Carolyn Hax
Why are you still trying?

Not a rhetorical question--I am genuinely curious. I can see it if his hurting himself would then present a serious problem for you and your mother, by, for example, demanding more care-giving than you're in a position to give, or creating severe financial hardship. But if he just wants to be busy and doesn't care about his body, and you want him to stay in one piece for your own reasons--because you want him around for a lot more years--then he wins that one. He gets to choose how to live his life, even if it means skydiving onto the roof to get to a hard-to-reach gutter.

Condensed version: If you can't stop his madness, then work on the madness of trying to stop him.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

CB123

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 05:33:15 PM »
Ah! That advice works for almost everything in my life.

I'm convinced I've chased people around trying to get them to do what I want because I want to spare myself the pain of their bad decisions. For all I've complained about my dysfunctional partners, there is a certain amount of dysfunction in me that keeps falling in that ditch.

The covid shelter in place has given me a lot of time to think about those dynamics, and although I was definitely making progress on stopping the cycles, I am clearer now than I've ever been of what they are. I really think we will do them over and over and over, if left to ourselves.

Although she moved in to "help" them, looks like they are doing okay!

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

lighter

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 05:39:46 PM »
When we need other people to be OK, for us to be OK....

that's our problem.   

Thanks for sharing that,  Hops.  It's a really important message. I like seeing it from other people's perspectives.  It helps drive it home.

Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2020, 09:56:47 AM »
[Tupp, thought you might relate. Tho' not in such extremity, I can too. xx Hops]

Dear Carolyn: Over the past year I was diagnosed and hospitalized for a serious and life-threatening illness. I have been struggling mightily since then with severe depression, survived a drug overdose, am in the process of getting divorced from my husband of many years, lost a cherished pet to illness, and have had to sell my house.

In the process, I found out that my social network was seriously lacking in the true-friendship department. Of the "close" friends I told about my illness, not a single one remained in contact with me throughout my ordeal, and some were downright rude and insensitive. All of them know not only about the hospitalization but also my pending divorce.

I am in the process of moving and trying to start fresh. I have no intention of sending these people my new contact details. Now some of them have begun to contact me — nearly a year after the fact — asking me how I'm doing and saying they're "concerned." One of the worst offenders left a message on my voice mail at work today saying she's sorry she hasn't been in contact (since last fall), but that a lot has been going on and that she was procrastinating (!). She informed me she'd email me "soon."

My instinct is simply not to respond. I don't even feel I can trust them enough to tell them how painful it was to realize I had no one there to help me. Do I have any obligation to formally cut things off with them?

— Looking for More Than Fairweather Friends

Looking for More Than Fairweather Friends: After years and years of advising people to talk (and talk), it’s refreshing to say: No. You have no obligation to respond, at least not to a voice mail so thoughtless and noncommittal.

If any of these friends proves to be remorseful and, maybe even more important, persistent, you might find it rewarding to respond; at worst you’ll get the satisfaction of being heard, and at best you’ll relaunch a good friendship. But short of that, please do give yourself the small satisfaction of washing your hands of them all.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2020, 06:25:27 AM »
Oh Hops, thanks for thinking of me and yes, it does resonate, and quite a bit right now - I've literally just been sitting in the bath having a little weep as I thought about so many people who've just vanished and who, no matter how many times I explain my situation, son's situation, health problems and so on, seem to hear nothing and don't seem to be able to process that.  I'm quite baffled by it.  If I knew someone in that lady's situation I would, at the very least, ask if there was anything I could do and check in on her from time to time, and if I knew her well I would just take it upon myself to cut her grass, clean her house, get food shopping in for her and so on.  I see that as normal?  Yet so many find even sending a text message too much to manage.  Yes, I think just moving on is the thing, I just find it hard.  It makes me sad and more than that, it makes me feel anxious about ever making new friends as I find that sort of 'rejection when sick' very hard to cope with.  Feels easier not to bother at times.  Sheesh.  Sorry to go on.  Just feeling a bit down today, I think.  Thank you for thinking of me, you're right, it did resonate, I know it does for you as well.  I'm very grateful to have my lovely, supportive online friends on here :) xx

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2020, 11:38:45 AM »
Me too, Tupp. SOOO grateful.

I'm so very sorry you're feeling that abandonment, I do get it. Ouch.
I think for me it goes waaaay back, when things are not reciprocal.
It's very hard not to ask myself questions that probably stem from early on being unpopular. I am genuinely loved by a few friends now. But I still have early-imprint feelings echoing from when I felt more alone than words can describe.

My only fix for it now is to fear less, detach more, and spread around my sense of connection. The deep connections I have with two friends my age (one less so) are comforting, but not really as much as I'd like. But I'm still open to finding new ones.

I did a lay sermon once on loneliness (two, actually, 15 years apart). For me the key image was how vicious Western culture is toward people by describing them as "needy." I'm needy as heck. I NEEEEED people, connection, a sense of caring and being cared about. Particularly because I have no family in my life (like you). It just makes it more intense when other people seem to just open their hands and let you float away, not motivated enough to put in the effort to hold on to the thread. And you feel that the thread is YOU, so you feel abandoned over and over. Ouch ouch.

What I HAVE (finally, finally, finally) learned is that this is not about me or my worth or goodness or dignity or value--or theirs either. This is about our culture, how it's disconnected us from communities of belonging, or conducting friendships in more conscious, caring, reciprocal ways. I don't blame any individual any more for letting the thread that represents me float away. I feel sad about it from time to time, like you do, but I'm finding it's less often and less piercing.

I have come to believe that most people's minds are scattered, their hearts are anxious, their brains are tired, and their souls are weary. So the regular, satisfying, reassuring contacts that mean SO MUCH to needy-me, mean less to many others. I think most people are trudging in place right now, overwhelmed even if still functioning. And often the bright perky online reports of doings and such ring shallow (one reason I don't do social media). Not because activities or accomplishments ARE shallow--they're not!--but because I am more interested in the deep deep stuff when it's available. That's tiring for many people who find comfort in activity reports more than in navel-gazing (my major).

I can't imagine how hard it is for you to get your social needs met. And they ARE needs. There's nothing weird about weeping in the tub when you can't summon up a friend who cares enough to remember that visiting you in the evening when Son is preoccupied is for you the most meaningful connection possible. Especially while you could still drag chairs outside.

One question: Have you ever this directly and simply (shortly, briefly) stated that to friends? Such as (drumroll, script time):
Hi XXX, Would you be free to come visit me in an early evening, while Son is entertaining himself upstairs on his own? I need social contact and am realizing that meeting friends "out" is wearing me out because of how all the stimulation affects him. If you can do that, please suggest a few dates and let's pick one. If you can't these days, just say so--it helps to know either way. Thanks, Tupp

I have (belatedly) learned that it really IS okay to ask for what you want as long as you release the outcome. I have asked something similar very recently--sending out a direct message about how much I'd love to have patio or backyard visits from people I know and like. Results: Having broadcast that message to lots of friends/acquaintances, I've gotten replies (and visits) from a verrrry small handful. A couple neighbors, one close friend, and two out of the eight members in my Covenant Group (a group that meets twice a month and knows each other well).

And that's me, somebody who has worked intentionally and consistently to build relationships and community for years now. And have been friends with some of these people for ages. There's just a passivity there, that I'm accepting.

The conclusion I came to is:
--This is okay. It doesn't mean people dislike or reject me. Others' motivation to do anything meets a LOT of inertia for a host of reasons I do not need to know. That's been huge. I don't need to puzzle it out. I just need to keep living in as happy a way as I can and continue reaching out in a direct way, asking them (meaning the universe) for what I want, and releasing the outcome whatever it is.

And the reason it's really okay is that I accept that's how it often turns out, people are just doing their people thing, and I'm a unique people, and I'm just fine and lovely, and new people like me too so I can reach out to them with my direct message, and then I need to remember to reach out to another one now and then, and take walks, and refuse to draw any drastic conclusions from my current level of connectedness or its lack, because I am a fine and valuable and worthwhile human being with an intesting mind and good heart and quirky nature and great stories and I like other people generally and specifically and it's good to be alive and there are dogs.

That's about it and I doubt it will lift you out of the tub but I have complete faith that you will form friendships that are kind. No idea what shape they'll take but don't ever stop asking the universe for what you want. You'll maybe find that your "needy need" changes its shape too. Over time. Mine has modified and I'm grateful to recognize that I seldom feel pure anguish. Sad sometimes, hurt occasionally but more often "lightly" if that makes sense. I just expect less so I'm disappointed less.

One thing you CAN count on is that everything changes and flows and goes, and our individual sorrows do too.

You SO don't deserve loneliness, Tupp. I'm very very sorry you're experiencing it.

hugs and comfort and chamomile and pats on the back,
Hops



"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2020, 12:07:05 PM »
Sometimes people who comment on a Hax column are amazing. Here's a reply to today's [LW = letter writer]:

My father and my sisters will be disappointed and may even disown me if I meet the other man. [A man her mother got involved with near the end of a miserable marriage to LW's angry father.]

LW, it might seem hard to believe, but there are worse things than being disapproved of and disowned. Being "owned" by family members based on their conditional approval of your false self comes to mind.

I get it. Authenticity is so hard. Authenticity that threatens to sever familial connections as the price of admission is so hard, it's a wonder anybody ever chooses it.

But people are remarkably brave when need be, and I hope you were brave too. Differentiating yourself from familial beliefs and being willing to shoulder disapproval for your own beliefs is very brave.

Many people, when given a choice between authenticity and connection, choose to sacrifice their authenticity to maintain connection. It's a particular kind of slow torture to abandon yourself and your beliefs to keep the approval of others.

Overall, I hope this settled and resolved with time, but I really hope you chose your own even-handed authenticity over threats to your sense of connection. It will have served you over the years, I hope you are at peace with how things played out.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2020, 12:16:19 PM »
Thanks, Hops, that is an interesting way to look at it and, like you, the rejection goes back such a long way and really echoes for me when it happens over and over.  I think part of it with me as well has been the number of people who vanished when I started putting in boundaries.  Just saying to people that I didn't have time to talk right now and could we catch up at the weekend or that we weren't able to attend their party/wedding/house warming but that we'd love to meet up another time and people just seemed to fritter away.  I think the sense of people not bothering with son really bothers me and I think part of that is tied up with my mum's outright refusal to accept his disabilities.  Such a huge rejection of him as a person and it mirrored what she did to me as a child - you have to be a certain way or you won't be accepted.  I suppose that stays with you.

Unfortunately the people I know who are close enough to visit in the evening have young children so it's not practical for them, plus I'm only seeing those who are also shielding so that cuts the numbers right down as well.  I do think being tired (which I am today) makes me much more prone to feeling depressed and alone.  That along with winter approaching is problematic, I think.  I think I'm just going to have to focus very much on keeping healthy and busy wherever possible.  I am going to see my sister next week which I'm looking forward to; she's been shielding all this time as well so we decided to do it before the kids go back to school in case the numbers rocket again.  We're both in relatively low number areas so assuming that stays the same son and I can start taking bus rides to different places to go for walks and I think that will help a bit.  Plus I can start getting on with my re-designing the house stuff from next month and that will be good as well.  We'll all get through it, won't we :) x

bean2

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2020, 04:52:51 PM »
Hops,
I seriously thought I was reading a story about my own parents...except, there are no trees we are in a desert (so no gutters to clean)....but ya, my parents are in their 70's and this is their life.  They live on a 20 acre ranch in the Middle of Nowhere.

I am always talking my husband into helping them (no they don't live with us- yet). 

I do think it's a lot like taking care of a toddler.  My mom is an N my Dad is just a flying monkey co-dep.  Ever wonder what happens when the Narcissistic gets old????   I wonder this every day of my life.

I mean...who will SAVE THEM??  (not me not me not me..I hope)

bean

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 05:10:10 PM »
Save yourself, Bean!

I walked right into the propellers (10 yrs f/t caring for Nmom).

I regret it genuinely in my lifetime "regrets" column.

BUT. On a spurchul inner-peace level, it took all 10 years to figure out many layers I didn't understand before...and ultimately (very ultimately) I realized that learning more about her childhood and my own personal work about compassion, etc. -- added up to me completely forgiving her. I found peace.

That has lasted, and I think in the long run (for me) -- it's been worth it. ALL our "unfinished business" was done with on my end (no full understanding from her of course, but I had also learned she couldn't help it). So I grieved while she was still alive for the mother she wasn't, accepted the mother she was, and was released.

YMMV!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2020, 10:18:00 AM »
Just realized how cognitively dissonant what I wrote above was.
I both regret the decade caring for Nmom and don't regret it because at the end I had peace?

Pondered then realized...this is true.

I regret it.
I don't regret it.

And I imagine it'll always be that way.

WHO SEZ life isn't paradox?

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 10:27:49 AM »
Just realized how cognitively dissonant what I wrote above was.
I both regret the decade caring for Nmom and don't regret it because at the end I had peace?

Pondered then realized...this is true.

I regret it.
I don't regret it.

And I imagine it'll always be that way.

WHO SEZ life isn't paradox?

hugs
Hops

It can be both, can't it?  Although it does feel kind of weird.  My mum doing the things she did meant I lost her, but it helped me grow.  Also nearly killed me at times but I think I came through it a better person (certainly a self aware one!).  So I get that you can both regret it and not regret it at the same time.  I glad you got peace from it eventually, it probably would have been harder to come to terms with if you'd done all that and not found any kind of resolution for yourself xx

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2020, 04:05:59 PM »
I hear you, Tupp and Bean:

When a current friend or acquaintance unburdens himherself about worry for their aging parents and asks about my experience...I tell them both things. I regret it. Nmom's nature took a huge bite out of me and I believe the cumulative stress of caring for her has shortened my lifespan. I don't regret it. That is more my way of finding a jewel in a cow pat. Pretty stinky process, but the jewel is real.

It really was TERRIBLE stress (factoring in also working for Nboss and the rest of my toxic family situation). I got psychologically stronger in some ways because of it, because the last of my delusions (good intentions = ability to change others, as in getting love from a turnip OR rational information = persuasive to others, as in Nmom, these are your safest options) were ground away. I do have inner peace after it all but what a price. Living with stress so intense that you fear you'll die before the elder you are responsible for is an actual risk. Lots of people who aren't well off die taking care of elders.

Maybe I could have continued my growth and found more inner peace and a bit easier life anyway, without that torturous decade? I'll never know.

But the peace and sense of fully understanding her (and gradually, myself) were a big gift in my life. They're still here. The daughter part of my identity (like the mother part also became...my D also has wide streaks of Nism I stopped denying) had to be entirely rewritten. (A decade earlier, with my father's decline and dying at home, there was no inner conflict over the stresses of caregiving. That man was so selfless and cooperative there was no resentment or unfinished business whatsoever between us, only love. It was exhausting but refilled me simultaneously. I used to describe that time as "a dance of the soul.")

If they ask, I usually advise people NOT to take it on unless first, they have a loving and trusting relationship with the parent. [That was denied to you Tupp, not because you don't love but because you HAD to disconnect to survive for yourself and your son. I would have done the exact same thing because I believe you did not underestimate the further damage she could cause you. Hard as it's been, you MADE IT.] And secondly, if they have resources so they can shield themselves from the worst of the physical wear of it by hiring loads of help. That wasn't me, so back pain/damage was acute and became a chronic limitation that plays out now in my attempts to enjoy gardening or get through a day without pain. I picked her up over and over when she'd slip or fall. She was never hurt (heavy, well-padded woman) but my spine with already-herniated disks was wrecked. It would've been better to persuade Mom into assisted living instead of enabling her to continue in a big old house letting it go unpainted and minimally maintained because she blew her funds. My bad.

One last thing about the column LW, though, is that just as I benefitted in the very long run in an economic way (my small inheritance helped me afford most of my house, a wonderful thing since my career had evaporated) -- so has the LW. She moved home due to chronic illness, so despite her frustrations with her father, she had safe housing. I did too.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 03:20:01 AM »
Nodding all the way through, Hops.  It kind of catches me between two places.  I do feel that we (as a society) treat older people and unwell/disabled people terribly, expecting them to endure pain and loneliness that no-one should be expected to put up with.  Without family and/or significant funds, as you say, it's very difficult to cope with difficult times in life.  Add to that that you often find other family members happy to sit back and do nothing whilst one person gives up their job/social life/health to look after another, and then add in complex or abusive family relationships - it's a minefield, isn't it.

I do feel, having been through my own experiences, that people should look to the future from a relatively young age (60's, I reckon) and just have a think about whether there are things they could do to make life a bit easier in the future, should it become necessary.  Downsizing a bit, moving to an area with more of the things they enjoy doing, moving somewhere with better public transport in case driving becomes a problem, and so on.  I'm not suggesting that people should make radical changes the day they turn 60, but to just start thinking about options a, b and c in case they need to start making changes.  Health doesn't always give you a good warning that it's on its way out so I think just knowing that you can sell your house and move somewhere without stairs or that you've got enough in the bank to pay for help if you need it can be a good thing.

Which brings me on to my mum, who has had multiple opportunities but really burnt every bridge.  Five kids, all of whom lived nearby at one time.  10 grandchildren, and now 6 great grandchildren.  A very comfortable income level - lots of equity in the house (which is far bigger than they've needed for many years).  And lots of savings.  Everyone avoids her; she's just made everyone's life a misery every chance she's had.  They've apparently spent every penny on holidays and going out a lot and I get the 'spend your inheritance' idea, who doesn't want to have a good time?   But I've also seen the reality of older people having to rely on council funded care and it's not pretty.  I'd rather have a bit in the bank to pay someone than have to rely on the local authority, even if that only meant being able to afford nice ready meals and a new microwave.  I have worried in the past that I would end up taking care of her.  Even after everything she's done, I wouldn't feel comfortable thinking of her sitting in the house alone all day, unwell and unable to get out.  But I think I've got good enough boundaries now to just arrange care from a distance and be content to know someone else is looking after her.  I get what you say about regretting it and not regretting it at the same time.  I feel I've learned a lot from everything we've been through, but I do wonder if I could have learned the same lessons in a less destructive way, as you mention.  I would also advise people to think very carefully about devoting themselves to care for someone else full time.  Even with your own child, my advice to anyone with young children would be to seriously think about other countries where they may be able to work and afford to pay someone else to come in.  It's so expensive here that you need to earn a fortune to pay for help.  It's just out of most people's pocketability and local authority provision is awful.  I suspect most people would just think I'm a mad old bat :)  C'est la vie.  I'm glad at least you got your little house to yourself and that Nboss and Nbrother are no longer in the picture, either xx

Hopalong

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Re: great Carolyn Hax moments
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 09:54:37 AM »
I hear you, Tupp. One issue with Nmom is that she never learned (or was taught) anything about how to manage her assets or plan for her future. She got the impression from my Dad that she could re-mortgage the house if she needed funds, and she'd done it three times by the time I moved back (because the nice, kind bankers were so helpful....grrrrr). She could have sold her house but the main reason she didn't is that she loved it and assumed she could stay there forever with somebody taking care of her (me), but had no savings at all for its maintenance. She really made some foolish decisions, like giving away my father's entire collection of antique maps because the university was going to make a big fuss over her, when she could have had them auctioned for several years' income. On my paltry salary (big chunks of it going to care for my D and by the end, for Nmom too) I couldn't have it painted, new roof, pther things needed, etc. It's on an upscale street but was disheveled by the time it sold. But it has beautiful bones and to my amazement pulled a pretty decent price just a couple years after the crash.

Pleases me now when I drive past to see how much the young couple have done to it, it looks elegant again. And there are children there, which makes me happy.

Tupp, I'm glad your mother has enough resources to survive. Since your sister is still in contact with her, can she be the one to arrange any care in the future so you don't need to?
(BTW, was really happy to read you had a pleasant visit, by choice, with her. Sounded like you really stayed in the present moment and looked at her without triggers, just observing her as a human being and interacting lightly, and allowing it to feel good.)

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."