Narcissism Part II

[longtire]

Go with your gut. If your inner voice says: "This is untenable and intolerable," then honor it and make your move. My only real advice to you is proceed as though all bets are off and life is to become entirely new. Should that change, and reconcilitaion (the real and honest kind) become possible, so  much the better. But do not proceed as though it is part of your plan - that will only backfire.

I truly believe that my path leads in a different direction from hers.  Now that I can feel compassion and even love for her I believe that I've sort of earned the right to leave.  It was always my choice, but I've learned what I needed to learn here.  After all these years of wanting to go, now I'm also ready to move on.

I am glad that my essays of self-discovery (basically what much of these now 26 pages - at least the non-argumentative parts - are based on/started by) are resonant for you. Hearing (reading) you state so is validating and much appreciated, although i do feel confident about my strategies and positions as they regard my own growth and potentials, with or without supporting/contradicting voices. I am learning to like the sound of my own voice, for better or worse. Practicing, refining, stretching tone and volume to measurable yet comfortable levels.

I feel that sharing my story with others and having them share with me is the most important thing in life, only below taking care of myself.  I'm glad to hear that my validation (of your perfectly valid experience) helps you feel good.  Through reading, I've come to realize that no matter how confidant and self-connected you are positive strokes from other people always help and negative attacks always hurt.  Also, I feel very validated by your appreciation.  It's been a long time since I heard feedback that my talking and sharing is a help.

In that sense, we should feel a cetain gratitude to our persecutors (If I may wax completely philospophic for a moment). Without them, we are actually much less likely to bring ourselves nearer to completion.
T

I understand this and can appreciate that I wouldn't be where I am if it weren't for ALL of my previous experience.  My heart still feels too much sadness and hurt to embrace this fully yet.  I am greatful, but not happy about feeling greatful.  Does that make sense?

[Anonymous]

(thanks, bludie - for getting it!)

longtire:

It makes perfect sense. I have often said: "I could have lived an entire lifetime without learning any of this crap and been pretty damn happy!"  I'm not sure that anyone or anything could ever get me to say "It has all been WORTH IT.". Damn doubtful.

However, here I am. Mud, mudpies - lemons, lemonade.

I will always mourn my innocence, my paradise lost (not that it ever really was, just that absurd pride of strength and whatnot). However, I
YAMMWHATIYAM -a bit more educated than before - and not just about my most recent heartbreaks, but about my entire history as a human being.

I think true illumination does not come without a price. And I further think, though it may be considered arraogant and narcissistic by some, that it is only when we think we have the power of absolute righteousness to our anger and our dismay, that we truly make ourselves blind to the real lessons inherent in our ADULT experiences (important disrinction).

I think that you, longtire, are well on your way to the ZEN necessary to make this about you - not in the narcissitic sense, but the healthy and self-affirming sense.

Of course, I have several glasses of the grape supporting this particular entry - be that as it may,

T

(More for you, Dear GFN, later).

[bludie]

After all these years of wanting to go, now I'm also ready to move on.

Longtire, this statement helped me. Although my situation doesn't compare to the duration of yours, I really like how you framed this. It removes us from victim mentality and puts the whole saga within the realm of choice; reflective (rather than reactive) choice. You have come a long way since your first post, I do believe. No matter what you decide to do - stay or go - you have reclaimed yourself through all of this. Very important and empowering. Way to go.

I think true illumination does not come without a price. And I further think, though it may be considered arraogant and narcissistic by some, that it is only when we think we have the power of absolute righteousness to our anger and our dismay, that we truly make ourselves blind to the real lessons inherent in our ADULT experiences (important disrinction).

This means we can choose to come full circle with whatever pain, unhappiness or disillusionment we've experienced. Pain can be inevitable but suffering (and blame) is optional. When you first began posting, T, you emphasized that the labeling wasn't necessary in finding one's voice. For many posts you have expanded and built on this idea. Although at first I was uncomfortable with some of it, I now think I may have gleaned the intent of your previous posts. Perhaps it's as simple as realizing that despite being persecuted or hurt, steeping oneself in righteous anger and indignation prevents learning the true lesson. Then we're doomed to repeat it.

bludie

[serena]

Longtire

You seem to have come a very long way in a short time.  I think it's fantatic that you can feel compassion for your wife but still realise that you probably need to move on.  It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I hope you retain your inner strength and self-esteem during the process.  Good luck - and look after your daughter along the way, as I am sure you will!

[longtire]

T, bludie, serena, and everyone else,
I may have spoken too soon.  Now I am back thinking that I want to take one more shot with a "confrontation" in the next joint counseling.  I feel like taffy in a taffy pulling machine.  First I'm stretched this way then I'm stretched that way....

[bludie]

Longtire,
Bless your heart. Part of this process, I do believe, in finding our voices is to be okay with what we decide. Even if it leads us down a path we don't like, we at least have the recognition that WE made our OWN choice.

So no explanation needed on your part, as far as I am concerned. It's no small thing to end a marriage. Just try to be true to yourself in this process and honor the voice you've been successfully cultivating here.

My best to you,

bludie

[Anonymous]

Perhaps it's as simple as realizing that despite being persecuted or hurt, steeping oneself in righteous anger and indignation prevents learning the true lesson. Then we're doomed to repeat it.

Exactly! My postulations are based on the idea that as long as we remain attached to using linguistic symbols of those feelings, we're more likely to miss opportunities to see past those symbols and into ourselves, which is where all the real answers lie.

I've been building and expanding on all this quite organically, in the sense that on a daily basis, either the ideas I generate at the time of posting lead to a new behavior, or a new behavior leads to a new idea.

A good example occured this weekend:

We were working on a new song - and such is his habit (under many circumstances), my husband would ask me a question then immediately interrupt my answer, instead playing or singing or talking about whatever it was/is before I could actually get in a word. As is also the norm, this repeated several times within a few minutes, and I was starting to get really annoyed. Ususally, one of these things woulld happen under these circumstances: I would either go silent and simmer and think about what a narcissistic bastard he is, how only his thoughts are important blah blah blah, how "He doesn't love me enough tomlisten to me! I'm so hurt!" or impatiently re-direct him "Would you PLEASE let me SPEAK and FINISH MY WHOLE THOUGHT before you you say anything else!!!".

This time, however, I just put my head down on the piano and started to laugh, and just said: "You're killing me. This is so funny".

At first, he was a bit horrified, "Don't laugh at me, I have a problem and you shouldn't let it affect you. (heard this before -  my problem if I can't accomodate his problem, right?".

But I just kept laughing, and said: "Since I have feelings and cannot help but be affected by your problem, these are my choices of response, as I see it:

1. Get mad but don't speak, and then quit working with you because I get derailed by the resentment (Evil N symbol).

2. Get all hurt then feel like a big talentless loser and get derailed by feeling unloveable (unapprecaited, abandoned Martyr symbol).

3. Be confrontational about it,  making both of us too mad to work (righteous Martyr vs. Evil N symbol, move over Wrestling Federation).

or

4. I can laugh, because if this were a scene in a movie, it would truly be funny (think Woody Allen symbol).

I'm choosing to laugh, because of all the choices above, it seems most healthy, and I'm really sick of the other choices. You could try laughing, too. And when I'm absurd, you can can laugh then, if you want, instead of getting mad."

Of course, he immediately dug into defensive mode, but instead of rising to the bait one way or the other, I just kept laughing. "I'm sorry, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let this eat me up. You can get eaten up if you want, but I'm choosing to see this for what it is: Funny. I'm not going to take this personally, and I'm not going to take responsibility for it either. I've just decided that the button you're pushing is the laugh track, not the angry track or the bitter tears track or the I'm Worthless track. They're my buttons, I can decide which one is going to be pushed! And - I love you dearly, and would rather laugh than get angry or hurt and decide that I don't enjoy loving you.""

It took a little while, but he eventually came around and said "You're right, it really is the only sane course of action under the conditions. It does make me feel bad, but the other responses would maybe even make me feel worse. I do have this problem, and maybe if I learn to laugh nore and get less defensive, it can improve."

I guess what I'm illustrating is that I decided that I AM IN CONTROL of how much I get hurt, because theses are MY feelings, and MY buttons and I get to dictate which buttons are available to be pushed. His problems belong to HIM, not to me. If my laughter pushes his buttons, HE can decide which of HIS buttons is to be pushed. I do not have to be responsible for HIS buttons, nor he MINE.

Sounds kind of quirly and wierd, maybe, but I found the whole situation illuminating - and we are well on the way to completing a very good new song.

T

[Anonymous]

I've been building and expanding on all this quite organically, in the sense that on a daily basis, either the ideas I generate at the time of posting lead to a new behavior, or a new behavior leads to a new idea.

Thanks, GFN (Good Freind Now?), for all your kind comments/questions suggestions. Theya re great food for thought. However, I did want to quote myself above, just to let you know that each tiem I write - I not only am making confessionals and observations about myself, but that each post generates a new inspiration and/or new view. I actually think I'm doing okay, and slowly seeing the results that I've been looking for - getting out past the second wave, so to speak.

A liitle at a time, every day, I am doing just one small thing more toward valuing ME to the extent that I not only should but DESERVE.

It's working out.

T (Tender, Twit, Trouble, Tangible Results!)

[Anonymous]

Longtire:

We all have a right change our minds. As said above, dissolving a marriage, no matter how troubled, is no small undertaking and should not be approached impatiently.

Go with your gut, even if your gut says something new or contrary today. Even consult with your gut on the hour and take data, looking at the  statistics over time before deciding which hypothesis holds up (could seriously be worth a try).

As in my post above, if you can decide that YOU own your feelings and their associated buttons, you might be able to find better clarity.

I think you are a remarkable person to try so hard as you do to see not only the problems outside of you, but also those within. Few people can mange that very effectively, and when we have old, old habitual behaviors and respose patterns, it's very analogous to a couch potato suddenly getting up to bid for the decathalon gold - ambitious.

Feels good when you at least finish, though, even if a medal isn't waiting for you at the finish line.

Keep training -

T

[longtire]

With the help of my old therapist, I realized that what has been holding me back from making a committment is also the same thing that has caused me to be so angry when dealing with my wife recently.  I've been holding on and unwilling to admit that all the dreams and hopes that I had for this relationship are really and truly gone now.  I let them go last nite with tears and now my path seems clear, without reservations.

I have learned the lesson that if I'm having trouble making up my mind, its because there is still something there that I haven't dealt with yet, which does need to be dealt with.  Once I've done that, my choice and my course becomes clear.

[Anonymous]

Hello T and Longtire and all reading:

...my husband would ask me a question then immediately interrupt my answer,

I would either go silent and simmer and think about what a narcissistic bastard he is, how only his thoughts are important blah blah blah, how "He doesn't love me enough tomlisten to me! I'm so hurt!" or impatiently re-direct him "Would you PLEASE let me SPEAK and FINISH MY WHOLE THOUGHT before you you say anything else!!!".

I had a similar experience and my response wasn't as effective as yours.  I said:  "I really don't like it when you interupt me and I really wish you would stop doing that".

This was a true statement expressing my thoughts but I don't think it diffused the anger the way your laughing did.

...these are my choices of response, as I see it:

1. Get mad but don't speak, and then quit working with you because I get derailed by the resentment (Evil N symbol).

2. Get all hurt then feel like a big talentless loser and get derailed by feeling unloveable (unapprecaited, abandoned Martyr symbol).

3. Be confrontational about it, making both of us too mad to work (righteous Martyr vs. Evil N symbol, move over Wrestling Federation).

or

4. I can laugh, because if this were a scene in a movie, it would truly be funny (think Woody Allen symbol).

I think there may be another choice or two here.  When the problem first occurrs, what about something like this:

"I feel hurt and insulted when I am interupted as I am speaking.  I doubt you are trying to hurt or insult me but that's how I feel.  Would you please try harder to allow me to finish speaking before you start?"

5.  I can Express my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person to have respect for them. (have a voice symbol).

And if that doesn't work, and the person continues with the same behaviour, I can say:

"I'm starting to get right ticked off.  I know how hard it is to break a habit but please understand that if you continue to do this, it will drive me away from this conversation/song writing session".

6.  I can RESTATE my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person one more time to have respect for them. (have patience symbol).

7.  And if that doesn't work........I can leave the room, suggesting I will come back later and we can try again.  I can go for a walk to help diffuse my anger. (calmly exit symbol).

Ofcourse, I didn't do any of this either.  And your way certainly reduced the tension very quickly.   It's expressing our actual pre-anger feelings and trying to help the other person understand the harm their behaviour is causing......that seems like the important thing to do when trying to have a voice and it might even help correct the problem??  It doesn't matter who's problem it is.......if it gets corrected......that's the goal, right?
And expressing our feelings calmly, rather than holding them in and allowing them to simmer and stew and eventually boil over, or eat away at us,  is what so many who have been abused.....seem to have such a hard time doing, do you think?  Maybe interupting was the only way to be heard...for those who's disposition was to keep trying, rather than just shut up and feel hurt, insulted and then angry?

Aren't those feelings are what build and make the problem worse, if not released?   Laughing was definately a great way to deal with this situation.  Sometimes, it may not be appropriate to laugh.  Some people might feel that we are laughing at them and that might upset them even more.  More importantly, I think, voicing our feelings gently, clearly, calmly, etc....and trying to let the person know that we don't believe they had the intention to cause us to feel that way.....is really communicating.

Thanks, GFN (Good Freind Now?)

That's a nice definition of those letters.  Thankyou T.

GFN

[Anonymous]

I have learned the lesson that if I'm having trouble making up my mind, its because there is still something there that I haven't dealt with yet, which does need to be dealt with. Once I've done that, my choice and my course becomes clear.

Longtire:

I think it's true that we linger so long as we have yet to learn/gain whatever it is we're seeking. Sometimes, it takes a long time for that to become clear. Ironically, vascillation can be a good sign that we're nearing a conclusion, if only because we now know what the choices really are.

I do think, however, it will probably be a while before you feel totally resolute all the time. OFten we have to make choices before all the data is in - at some point, we have to end the experiment and accept the hypothesis as theory, if data collected over time shows results to be entirely consistent. In good science, we know that the absolute answer will never appear, but we rely on theories like Gravity (it's still a theory, in science) to guide all the rest of our explorations, accepting it as a "working truth", if not an "absolute truth".


GFN writes:

"I really don't like it when you interupt me and I really wish you would stop doing that".

"I feel hurt and insulted when I am interupted as I am speaking. I doubt you are trying to hurt or insult me but that's how I feel. Would you please try harder to allow me to finish speaking before you start?"

"I'm starting to get right ticked off. I know how hard it is to break a habit but please understand that if you continue to do this, it will drive me away from this conversation/song writing session".


I can RESTATE my feelings calmly, with empathy, and ask the person one more time to have respect for them. (have patience symbol).

And if that doesn't work........I can leave the room, suggesting I will come back later and we can try again. I can go for a walk to help diffuse my anger. (calmly exit symbol).

IF I HAD A NICKEL...!!!!!

Tears are in my eyes, I'm laughing so hard at the thought. Of course, his narcissistic tendencies are pretty strong, so the above methods have little real effect, an he can easily twist and turn and escape the message (can anyone say deflect and project?). Also of course, the more I've gone through this, the more sensitive my negative buttons have become. The above "game" has been played for years and years on end - in discussions (anything remotely personal, anyway - other converstions are extremely rewarding, he's a brilliant guy in many ways, and brains make me hot), in arguments, in working situations, in "request" situations, you name it. When using the above measured and polite methods, it often takes as much as two hours to get my point across (or never, as I have to give up at some point), so adept is he at the twisting and turning etc.

I just finally decided to laugh, is all. When all else fails, go to the movies. This was absolutely the fastest and most effective means I have discovered in 14 years (i12, if you don't count the first two honeymoon years) to get him to cut to the chase, have a five minute or less discuission, and move on. Sounds wacky, but it really, really worked.

All those above methods would work most of the time with most people. They DO NOT work with my husband most of the time (sometimes, but not so often). He actually latches onto polite intervention as a deadly insult to his character, accusing me of condescending to him or treating him like a child (thus the more recent personal defaults of simmering, internalizing, or impatience - I'm tired of endless conversations with no results, and even more tired of being treated like "the enemy" when I'm trying so hard to be considerate).

One gets mightily sick of trying to be polite and nice when even that fails. It's been so tough, I've even started to get rapid heartbeat and sweaty palms any time I need to say something remotely personal, working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes, etc...but it has not worked. In fact, the more careful I am, the worse his response. He then tells me to stop talking like a lawyer! Accusing me of trying to be perfect and better than him! It's been no-win, until now.

Maybe it's just the element of surprise at work - I'm pretty damn sure that a) he wasn't giving any thought to his behavior/my feelings at the time, and b) he certainly wasn't expecting me to just simply crack up.

I think in a way, it actually gave him a little more humanity (is his eyes) than any of the above polite stuff, because for whatever reason, that always makes him feel like he's getting a "talking to". Especially when I pointed out the movie correlation - that scenes like this are classic comedic situations. So why not laugh? He GOT that; understood that if he were watching the situation from the outside, he would be laughing, too.

So for now, I'm going with it, as long as it works. IF it starts to fail, I guess I'll just try for a new "surprise". Meanwhile, I'm free of heart palpitations and sweaty palms, and my anxiety can take a much needed holiday.

T

[Anonymous]

Hiya T and all:

One gets mightily sick of trying to be polite and nice when even that fails. It's been so tough, I've even started to get rapid heartbeat and sweaty palms any time I need to say something remotely personal, working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes, etc...but it has not worked. In fact, the more careful I am, the worse his response. He then tells me to stop talking like a lawyer! Accusing me of trying to be perfect and better than him!

"I feel hurt and insulted...."
"I'm starting to get right ticked off...."

These are expressions of a person's feelings.  Are you saying that you don't express your feelings to your husband because when ever you do, he becomes defensive, accusatory and rude?  You feel extremely anxious prior to expressing your feelings?  You choose your words real carefully but can't just say what you feel?  What do you feel like afterward?

It must be very difficult to have a relationship with a person who will not allow you to express what you feel and who responds like this when you do?  If you can't express your feelings to him, what do you do with them?

...working out every single word carefully so as to avoid stepping on his toes..

What about your toes?  Who's being careful not to step on them?

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Not ignoring anyone; have had the flu. In bed for days, dizzy, headache, bodyaches, sore throat, fever, chills,coufh - you name it, I got it.

Soon.

T

[joannwllc]

Hello,

I am new to this site and I also find Dr. Grossman's articles enlightening and helpful.  The "Voicelessness" mantle is much more powerful and meaningful to me than "Narcissism" because it speaks to the true suffering involved in these relationships.

When I read the posts, I am not overlly concerned with what noun or pronoun people use, but with the meaning of what they are trying to say.  This, I think, is far more important than how it is said.  The pain is real, the anger is real, the recovery is long.

I am no expert on Narcissism, but I believe it has many faces, some more ugly than others.  I suspect that with most who have suffered the bad behaviors of a Narcissist, will agree that the pain usually far outweighs the joys with these folks.  In my own case, I don't believe my mother is anywhere near as damaging as some, but the damage to me was deep and long lasting.  It took decades to reach the place I now inhabit within myself.  The truth is, in one way or another, much of my life has been devoted to her and recovering from her.

I am fairly far along in my own journey and I, too, am looking for answers and information which may not be found entirely on this site.  That may be more than we should expect.

I am grateful to have found any site which helps me to better understand that which I was so alone with for so long. And if my sharing helps someone else along the way, I am grateful.


Good luck with your quest, Jo