Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

Hello All:

I use to teach 4th grade.  Some of the things kids do to each other is amazing.  You are correct in stating that some of it is developmental.  I think sometimes 6 year olds are the worse.  They are so arbitrary in their relationships.  First they like you and your their bestest friend, they don't like you.  It constantly runs hot and cold with children.

The trick is in communication and helping children navigate the pitfalls so they won't drop through the sinkholes when they are teenagers.  Patz

[Anonymous]

So true, patzy-sue - it's all lord of the flies, whether we like it or not. Kids are not civilized by nature, and those who are hungry for power becaue they have no healthy power within the family will do whatever they can to get it. They're not bad per se (royal pain to adults), bu ti's quite the job to respect how important it all is to them while helping them keep perspective.

I think the worst thing in the world is to outright dismiss the importance of it to kids on either side of the bully fence - to them, it's life and death. For my daughter, a snub from a peer carries the same weight as would being fired to me.

T

[Anonymous]

T!

He loves you soooo much he faces the demons and fights them off!
That is wonderful!  (I'm assuming he loves you or he would care less if he lost you, friend or not, right?).

He is and was often loving and tolerant (but sometimes moody and impatient..

Sounds like me and everyone that looks like me (but I don't think I bully...there are better ways.... ).

"Love can move mountains."

...the girlfriend was just a prop to help him make himself feel better...

He violated your trust!!!               How are you doing with that?

Code: [Select]

She was my "friend", and opportunistically inserted herself...

Your friend betrayed you!!!               How are you doing with that??

Doubly whammy!!!

Those are traumatic events to experience.

  It's not perfect, but it's better - and it gets better in fits and starts all the time.

I'm glad things are going that way now.  Sending you another huge large big hug.

GFN

[Anonymous]

I'm assuming he loves you or he would care less if he lost you, friend or not, right?).

Yep. And vice versa.

He violated your trust!!!        How are you doing with that?

I've adjusted and forgiven now - but it took years for the anger to leave. At first, I thought about it and was devastaded/furiuous all the time (making me no peach to live with, either).

I'd say it was about three years before I no longer felt angry when I thought about it. I still think about it sometimes, but no so frequently.

Your friend betrayed you!!!       How are you doing with that??

Feeling educated. With her, I REALLY should have seen this betrayal coming. She was, before my husband, unfaithful to her husband with her brother-in-law (husbna'd sister's husband), and was indulging in heavy make out sessions (at least, maybe more) with former HS classmates while coordinating a high school reunion. She was a self-centerd hypochondriac and liked to drink pre-bottled mudslides as a chaser to her vicodin.

Somewhat, she was a friend of convenience. We were neighbors with kids near the same age who played together several times a week (she also had a teen-aged step-daughter who babysat for us periodically). She was not stupid, and rarely did the mudslide and vicodin trick to noticeable effect, at least not around her kid. And she was able to provide some adult entertainment/conversation in an otherwise kind of cloisterd at-home Mom life. I did care deeply about her, although it bothers me to think about it that way now.

Lacking that I voice, I was too dismissive of her behvaior: Poor woman is so unhappy, I wish she could find a way to be happy without hurting herself, let me be supportive and helpful and maybe she'll feel better, instead of : This woman is a remorseless harpy and I should back away - far away. But, lacking an ability to listen to my inner voice (of course, Mother always told me it was WRONG, not to trust myself), so attached to my idea that all people were basically good and I could trust anyone who claimed to be my frined, I could not see the warnings.

I think it was when I gently suggested that she should cut ties wth the brother-in-law (but we're SOULMATES!!!! I hate that word/phrase) before she really hurt herself, let alone everyone else, that she decided I was fair game.

Oddly, she once told me how my husband was not "good-looking enough (he's perfectly fine - not brad pitt, but not don knotts either)", that her husband was really handsome and that was important to her. I suppose this comment made me think I was immune.

I guess my husband looked a lot better to her when his band was charting No1 for months of MP3 & B-Sonic, getting tour offers in Belgium and Canada. At that point, he was her SOULMATE, I guess.

Just before all this went down, she tried to "catch" me, I guess, in some bad behavior. She started questioning me about a friend of mine -  a talented young artist/musicain (still my/our friend to this day, though he now lives in NYC and comes down to visit/record once in a while, bringing his girlfriend of nearly 4 years) - asking if I had ever considered sleeping with him and did I think I might?!!?  - I always replied honestly, saying: No - he's too young and a valuable friend, and I love my husband and would never betray him, no matter how many problems we have.

Apparently, she started coming to visit my husband when I would go out with friends once a week or so.

I know what was going on within a week after he told me it was over, but I could not allow myself to think it out loud for a couple of months. My denial factor was off the charts.

I still struggle with it, but not so much with my husband, because he has worked to change, to make reparations, to show remorse.

I don't talk to him about it much anymore (we did a lot of that in the first year or two after), usually just in passing,

 I'm struggling with the ways in which I've changed, the parts of me gone that I loved; that others loved: the creative energy, the fun-loving self, the laughing girl, the pool shark, the builder of sheds, the quick-witted tease, the happy prankster.

I'm ungodly serious now and prone to deep depression that lingers, rather than passes in a week. Where I should howl with laughter I smile a wan smile and nod. I THINK it's funny, but less often FEEL it.

I often wonder which changes are permanent, and if they are not, how damn long will it take?

T

[Anonymous]

Hi T:

He violated your trust!!! How are you doing with that?


I've adjusted and forgiven now - but it took years for the anger to leave.

So do you believe he will never do such a thing again?  Stupid question, because if you didn't believe that, you wouldn't stay with him, right?

You've worked through the issue, as far as I know, the way it usually goes. Struggled with the feelings that violation generated, let go of the anger, which helps to you to forgive, and have accepted you husband's attempts to change, to make reparations, to show remorse.

His doing those things allow for a greater chance for that trust to be rebuilt and for both of you to heal.  It doesn't erase the violation but it does help to repair the damage, am I right?

With your friend, it is not so easy eh?  She took advantage and then even called to complain about her pain when she was dumped!  Expecting you to be empathetic???  How crazy is that???

The fact that she was messing around on her own husband was definately a red flag that you must have missed but I bet you won't again.  Still, that's all the responsibility you can take for what happened.  The rest of the blame lies on the shoulders of the betrayers.

You care about your husband and he hurt you.  He cares about you and so he is trying to fix what he did (in himself and by making amends to you too).  This seems tolerable and easier to adjust to.

You cared about your friend, felt and showed empathy for her, and she hurt you.  She hasn't taken responsibility for her behaviour and she has done nothing to acknowledge the hurt she caused you (never mind showing remorse or making amends).  This is harder to take.

On the other hand...she seems to be acting without empathy for anyone, even herself.  Her self-destructive behaviours (the booze and drug mix, promiscuity, infidelity for the man she married, etc) indicate she is in a poor state and has real problems, one of which is a lack of empathy.

Maybe your wound feels like your friend hurt you....didn't value the friendship...you...gave to her....didn't consider your....feelings and had no respect for you...or your marriage?

But look at her.....she doesn't have any of that for herself.  She doesn't act like a friend to herself.  She is trying to numb her feelings (with the med/drug mix and the sex).  She has no respect.....for herself or her own...marriage.

So really.....can we expect her to think more of you than she does of herself?

It's so hard not to take such a thing as betrayal like that personally.  But it's really not anything to do with you.  The only thing you did was try to help someone in need (and trusted that person to be a friend).  Next time you run into someone who reminds you of her, will you run with the wind, or offer friendship and empathy but withhold trust?

There is still pain from the trauma which has been repressed and causes the depression.  It will come out.  We all want a quick fix.  There isn't such a thing.  It's hard to be as patient with you as you are being with others.

As to rebuilding those parts of yourself that you feel are gone, they may be sleeping?  The laughter thing is very important, imo.  Something that takes work.  Try to seek out stuff that makes you smile, look for the funny things that happen, and consciously apply your will toward getting that laughter back in your life.   I think you will find more of your old self returning, if you do that because it's sounds like you were a happy go lucky person, for some time, and the pain of what's happened has suppressed that happy girl/woman/lady/child???

Between releasing the pain (you have a very good avenue in your music)and looking for the joy in your life, it's gotta do you some good.

GFN

[bunny]

T,

Your "friend" sounds like quite a piece of work.

I used to have friends (so-called) who were even more f***ed up than I was. I guess it made me feel more stable.

I knew a woman like your "friend." She was trying to seduce every man, even if she didn't want him. She was married. She also seduced women into friendships for supplies she could get from them. She thought she was sooooo great and could 'get' any man. She was deeply troubled emotionally and had big problems in her life. Yet most men were flattered by her attentions and she probably could seduce most of them, even if only for an evening, before they realized what a drain she was.

Anyway, sorry this happened to you. I'm curious about one thing. Your H, a rock star, only had one woman throw herself at him?

bunny

[T]

No, a good few - but he enjoyed the attention and let it go, laughed with me about it later (we both had those experiences, as performers often do. You get used to it.). He's also a quiet man, an accomplished guitarist/arranger/all round musician, but not  a "front man" type. A Musician's Musician, so to speak, who did not spend much time schmoozing with the audience.

The singer/leader got most of that attention and reveled in it, renting limos to go party with stoned girls in mini skirts, Xing themselves into oblivion. In fact, my husband hated the project that was so successful. To him, it was trite bubblegum, and the ridiculous amount of posturing that the (moderately, promising, almost) successful band mates indulged in was just plain stupid.

This woman, however, wanted my life, not him - I was/am a decently respected singer/songwriter. part of the musical community, doing photo and artwork for other artist's records, etc, had a somewhat successful husband in "the business" (her husband was a successful electrician - less glamorous, to her). She lied (we later discovered, comparing notes after the fact) to him about some of the things I said/did about him/myself/us (and vice-versa) as a means of making him vulnerable to her advances and deepening any existing natural rifts and divides between us.

She tried writing/singing/inserting herself into said communitiy after she got her hooks in and broke us up, but none of the work was meaningful or up to any kind of skilled literary or musical standard (I heard some much later, and admit I almost fell off my chair at how bad it was), and no one in the community had any respect for her as a person. My husband later began to feel ashamed of the affiliation, and he lost the respect of quite a few people.

I, meanwhile, got shut out of the community, because as a "choice", his skills were more useful, so that was natural. Plus, I was on the receiving end of a few threats should I attempt to go anywhere - not to mention that I really didn't want to see them together.

In the end, we both lost some standing. After an experience like this, it is, among others who have not done this kind of crap (at least not publicly), as if you have the plague. No one wants to catch it.

Four years later, after everyone starts to feel comfortable that it's not going to happen again, things are beginning to improve in that area.

It's been really tough.

T

[T]

GFN:

Learning to trust him again was not easy, but not as hard as you might think. He has no previous history, in any realtionship, and until the manipulations from outside, an abhorrence on his part of infidelity.

And - of - course - he has worked hard, made sacrifices and reparations, and demonstrated not just simple remorse, but deep shame that he could harm me and H in such an unjustifiable way. Plus - and importantly - he made public statements to that effect to a few key people, in front of me. Brave, in my book.

The woman, as you said, is capable of no kind of real introspection, thus cannot ever repair herself.

I think a critical turning point in all this was when, as she talked about the "soulmate" relationship with her brother-in-law, I said" For your own sake, please stop before you wake up one day to find that you can't look at yourself in the mirror. Please consider how confused yourchildren would be if you were to leave your husband for their uncle, and how hurt and confused the enitre family would be. If he's really your soulmate, and your marriage is beyond repair, stop this relationship now, dissolve your marriage and wait a couple of years. If he is your soulmate, then the spark will still be there. But please stop before you hurt yourself and everybody else."

She did break it off, and it was about 2 months before my husband announced he was leaving. I think she hated me for confronting her with even the gentlest of truths.

Trust in the at large world has been difficult to manage. I have yet, aside from some gay friends, to feel that real trust in anyone again (even then it's pretty "qualified"). I don't laugh it off if I am approached by men (I used to be "charmed, I'm sure, but no thanks"). It makes me angry now. I don't trust unmarried straight women who haven't got strong, self-motivated identities - and I have no sympathy for anyone, ever, who twists truth to justify infidelity or any other violation or disrespect of others.

It is maybe harder for me than for some, those who did not have my childhood, because my rebellion against my mother was partially a deliberaste innocence - I refused to let HER poison my mind about other people - I refused to view the world as manipulative and mean-spirite4d, to the point where I failed to see it when it was real. I guess I took that too far, so am now in a prolonged orphan state, to go the Jung route.

I do miss me, and I think others do, too. I'm not as much fun as I used to be, I don't write/compose as often as I used to, and have all but given up photo work entirely. In essence, my passion is gone.

I hope to get it back some day, I really do. I often think I do not recognize me at all.

T

[bunny]

Here is where I look at "who I'm dealing with."

Okay, the following is kind of simplistic. The two dilemmas can definitely coexist and often do. But usually one of them is more dominant in the person's operations. And the person is NOT consciously thinking all of these things. Although they might think some of it.

The borderline dilemma sounds something like, "I dislike it when people try to put limits on me, everyone is abandoning me, there can never be enough people for me to attach to shallowly, I am out of control, I'm going to destroy everything and there will be nothing left, I hate myself, no one will bother to rescue me, I'm going to destroy myself through (name your poison), etc."

The narcissistic dilemma sounds like, "No one understands me. I'm so alone with this. No one gets how I'm struggling here with no help. I'm not going to make it without more (people, drugs, alcohol, affairs, work, etc.). I hate everyone, I'm going to make everyone as miserable as I am, etc."

As I said, there's more to it, but this encapsulates some of your friend's mindset as she goes through her day.

If I knew an unstable woman who was messing around with her BIL and I felt she had more of a "borderline" dilemma, I would avoid saying anything to her about why it was a bad idea. She would just take it as a direct attack and would set about to destroy me in retaliation. What I'd say is, "I can't really hear about your BIL anymore." If she insisted on knowing why not, I'd just repeat like a parrot, "I can't. I've thought about it and I can't hear it anymore." Yes, she'd be angry. Yes, she'd have a fit or two. Yes, she would try to make me go back on this limit. But I wouldn't. Borderlines really, really need limits set with very little explanation. The explanations just make it worse.

If I thought she was more of a narcissistic dilemma-type, I'd say, "Gee, it must be really hard on you to struggle with this." Even though she'd acted like it was no struggle at all. My goal would be to make her curious about what she was doing. Narcissistic dilemmas are partially about blocking curiosity.

some thoughts off the top of my head...

bunny

[bunny]

Re: giving up things you loved to do and wondering where it all went.

Is it possible that you're "showing" your husband and others how hurt and devastated you are, that they have literally destroyed your joie de vivre. I.e., a concrete expression of how it's affected you to the core? If so, that's quite understandable. But you may phase that out at some point.

You can experiment and do one of the things you used to enjoy and see if you can get into it again. I think action might be the key here. Another thought off the top.

bunny

[T]

Thanks, bunny, for your thoughts. I have had no contact with this woman in four years, and hope never to again (she moved out of the neighborhood) - so her state of mind is unimportant to me. I am simply working on processing and accepting my hurt and shock - and my feelings of stupidity for having been unable to face what was really going on.

Should she be motivated to darken my door with the most sincere, matyred apology ever, I would not consider listening for a moment. I'm not counting on that, either.

Washed my hands of her, indeed.

I have been trying more lately to get back into my groove. Partly, I feel so sad when I start that I stop. Actual performing (as opposed to writing - hard to be clever and literary when you're so shocked and numb) still makes me feel good - very, very good, so it's not hopeless.

It's just slow, and I still have some raw wounds that are easily salted. Hell, even sugar burns sometimes. Weak, I know, but where I am.

I suppose this is why I started posting in the first place - find my voice(s) again, if I'm lucky. Change the language of pain to the language of poetry, if I work at it enough.

thank you, bunny.

T

[Anonymous]

Hi T:

Trust in the at large world has been difficult to manage.

No wonder.  The one you love violated it and a so-called friend did too.

This definately takes a good chunk of joy out of life because it hurts so much.   I liked it a whole lot better when I was unaware of the wolves of this world (so what if they dwell in it....I liked it better when they snuck around in the shaddows and stayed out of my way).

There are still lots of people who are worthy of trust.  We just have to be careful about choosing who they are, right?  And that's what makes one cautious and doubtful.  The trick, I think, is to not judge every one by a couple of examples, which is a lot easier said than done, after having experienced such betrayal.

Take care of you, T, and the rest will come back.

GFN

[T]

GFN:

You are so right - and my mother, too - and father and brother, by virtue of being enlisted for her cause. Perhaps (oh, hell - definitely) even before my husband and (insert favorite horrible name here), there were these trust issues, only now magnified by this experience.

Sounds like you have a bit of that at-large trust issue, too (forgive me, going out on a limb), as it seems you don't trust others in your circle/community/family to recognize lies and smears (or could it be potential exposure of shameful secrets?) from your nemesis.

Am I seeing this right?

I think about this/you, and must admit knowing nothing keeps me from being able to provide much in the way of useful comments, aside from general support.

Is there no way you can rid yourself of this painful scenario? Get another job? Move to a new neighborhood or town? Create a new social circle? Paint the house and change your name, plant a flag of sovereignity in the front yard? Wacky, I'm sure, but could any of these gestures be worth a look?

Without giving more information than is comfortable, can you describe how/why the link is so impossible to break?

You seem such a fine and balanced person, and strong, too, so it is puzzling...

(I didn't ask these things of you before, since luego and others seemed to be working at it - didn't want the too many cooks problem).

T

[Anonymous]

Hello T and all:

...there were these trust issues, only now magnified by this experience.

So the issues developed from childhood.  I think you said you over did it in the opposite direction than what your mother was trying to get you to believe (that the world is awful and full of nothing but nasty stuff, manipulative people, (in other words:  trust no one), which you didn't believe, so you didn't see it when it was real...or something like that (I'm too lazy to look back at the posts).

To me that seems sensible.  It's sensible to see the world as not simply full of awful, nasty, manipulative, untrustworthy etc people.  It's not just full of that.  There are lots and lots of good, kind, caring, trustworthy people in the world too.  And unless you decided that absolutely everyone in the world, no exceptions, is nice, then your thinking was more realastic than you might have realized, and certainly more so than hers.

But... you ran into some people who broke your trust in them, and now......after all you've been through....you are going to rearrange your thinking and decide that yes.....the world is mostly full of awful, nasty, manipulative...wait a minute...no, no.......untrustworthy people???  Are you going to regress to her kind of all or nothing thinking??
Single women are danger.  Only gays are safe.   Right?
Just a perspective to think about....hope I'm not offending you.

As for me....I know what it feels like to have my trust violated (understatement).  But for me....I still feel a very strong sense of trust.  I believe most people are good (and some are seriously messed up) and I think most people are trying to behave well but don't always succeed.  I still believe in friendship, I just don't believe in certain friends (the ones who betrayed me).  I do think trust is earned and not to be handed out blindly to just anyone, but at the same time, I believe people are worthy of earning my trust, unless they demonstrate clearly that they are not.
I don't go searching for the bad in people and if I see it, I will often offer a hand, if it seems safe enough to do so.  I do look for the good and find it.
These are things I trust and have trusted.  So in a way, those who betrayed me......failed...because they haven't destroyed my trust.  Never thought of that before this very moment.

I have done some things to improve my own life, alter my scenario....

I moved my residence.
I joined a new group (for social interaction and community work) which I really enjoy.
I cut all ties with the person and those the person associates with (except for my children, ofcourse).
I gathered friends from afar, closer to me by increasing my communication with them (you know...how we drift appart from friends who move away...even those we felt we were really close with.....but when we get together...it feels like they were never gone???  Some of mine did that...moved away,  and I'm resurecting those friendships or should I say......working to stay closer to those friends (those immune to my "abuser").
I am actively persuing my own interests in the arts (much more so than prior to this situation) and using them to release my repressed feelings.
I'm working on improving all facets of my health (physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc)....Joined a gym for the first time in my life!!!!  Quit smoking almost a year ago!!!  Stuff like that.
I got a new puppy....I love my dog, who is getting older and I will be distressed when she passes away.  So I decided to get a new puppy and train it, etc, while my dog can tolerate such a commotion.  This pup keeps me active and is really a joy!!!  (and my dog is amazingly gentle and loving toward the pup!!!)  All very nice, so far.
I've set limits with some people and widened some with others and now I'm in a space where I feel it is safe to put most of my energy into my own recovery from the traumas I've suffered, this past while.  I think I did what was necessary while in crisis, to preserve my sanity,  but it feels like now....I'm really picking up the pieces.

It took 4 years before I could wear makeup again (because I cried so often and unexpectedly and I would end up a big smear....heehee...smear campaign....working real well......yep!!!).
Truly, I have done all I can and continue to for those I care about but this past year......I'm doing more for me because.... it's time.   Everyone else is doing quite nicely and I'm still struggling to pass go.

Like you, T, I am not who I was and I want me back.  Some of me is back but not most.  Still....a positive thinker....I believe I will get most of me back and my life will be full of joy again, soon.

I can't rid this person from the earth, nor can I have any effect on their behaviour, but I can choose to look forward and have faith, as I always have, especially since I know.....this won't last forever.  Nothing does.

You seem such a fine and balanced person, and strong, too,...

Thankyou T.  We are all fine, balanced, strong people....some days, aren't we?  Sometimes I'm just as crumby, off track and weak as any old putt putt.

I'm sorry, T, I can't seem to think of how to describe how/why the link is so impossible to break, without giving you more information than is comfortable.

You wrote:  

...knowing nothing keeps me from being able to provide much in the way of useful comments, aside from general support.

You have no idea how useful some of your comments have been, nor how much I do really appreciate your support.  Thankyou T.

You wrote, regarding your writing:  

I have been trying more lately to get back into my groove. Partly, I feel so sad when I start that I stop.

What if you write about the way you feel so sad?  Write about starting and stopping?  Some real....blues....maybe??  Maybe get some of the pain out, even if it is not stuff you would perform for anyone??  Maybe you'll surprise yourself??

GFN

[Anonymous]

I think you said you over did it in the opposite direction than what your mother was trying to get you to believe (that the world is awful and full of nothing but nasty stuff, manipulative people

Actually, no - it was a "cognitive dissonance" trick, of sorts - my Mother would continually portray/proclaim herslef to be trustworthy (not describe others as untrustworthy so much), but that was not consistently/rarely true. My rebellion was to override my temptation to trust no one, as I refused to be victimized to the point where ALL PEOPLE became my mother, in my eyes....if you can follow that. In essence, I knew my Mother was/is not normal in that way, so worked at extending trust even when instinctively tempted to withold it, in an effort to keep perspective.

I just overshot on the last one. Badly. I KNEW the truth long before I could face it. I had set up a fairly rigid academic demand system, such that I needed "hard evidence", not just (even well-founded) suspicion, to suspend trust. Unfortunately, due to the extremity of the modeling of my mother and the extremity of my resistance to it, my filter for BAD wasn't good enough - it got through the holes because they were too big.

Single women are danger. Only gays are safe. Right?

Not precisely, but almost. Single women without well-defined indentities of their own, especially those drawn to "glamour professions", are an auto-reject right now. Where there's one, there's usually more. I think I'd been really naive about this previously, thinking of it as "cute", sort of. A couple of people have recommended I see "Single White Female"; they say it pretty well illustrates the identity-usurpation angle the (insert expletive) was working. I haven't, though - but maybe I'll go ahead and cross that bridge and see. Calling Netflix...

It was a truly harrowing experience.

I've undertaken some of the same things as you - actually many of them, especially as regards personla health and well-being, during separation. It seems I got off track on some of them due to the struggles of reconcilliation. Socailly, it was a good while before I could feel comfortable being around anyone who had seen/been with them together. That was a major hurdle, and still causes some discomfort.

I've always had many gay friends, male and female (I'm an Honorary Lesbian - because I'm fun and don't give a crap about it all - in the place we play most), probably in part due to the fact that I share some of the same political/cultural predilictions. Although I did not previously feel "safer", I sure as heck feel less unnerved when a lesbian approaches my husband with comments about music or anything else. And - since hubby is not the tiniest bit gay (though not homophobic, either), he is neither attractive nor attracted to gay men.

It's not all that black and white, but I am developing a more refined sense of caution. Even if I'm currently erring on the strident side, it does help me find the balance point between that and my previous naivete.

What if you write about the way you feel so sad?

Dribs and drabs have come a couple of those "sad" songs, over the last few years. See (listen) here for mp3  "Spit it Out" from 2003:
Spit It Out (hit refresh if it does not play at first). One of the worst vocal performances ever (I sound as weak as I felt), but it was hard to sing at the time. Need to recut, but hey. there it is, and some folks even like it as is.

T