Author Topic: Narcissism Part II  (Read 53585 times)

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #210 on: February 03, 2005, 01:19:52 PM »
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Sometimes the only way around "it" is through "it", I think. Bruising and hurtful as that may be, at least you get to the other side eventually. Just hanging around in a perpetual hope that "they" will see the error of their ways and stop whatever "it" is can prolong the inevitable, sometimes.


Sorry T, I'm trying pretty hard to basically say the same thing as you've just said above. This isn't an easy thing for me to do and I am a bit involved here. Problem is GFN thinks there isn't any conceivable way through it. She's said that here. I've tried to point one way out, above.

cheers Guest

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #211 on: February 03, 2005, 01:30:05 PM »
S'Okay - glad we cleared that up.

I guess this is where the purely behvaioral approach comes in - when the whys and wherefores cannot be addressed further and action is all that's left.

Cheers to you, too, Guest. And hugs to Dear GFN, whatever her choice of action may ultimately be. She will know in her own heart what to do, when the time is right.

T

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #212 on: February 03, 2005, 04:02:35 PM »
Hello all,

I asked what you would do, Changing Guest, if you could control other people's behaviour.

Your answer:  
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I'd apologise, genuinely and sincerely.

I'd realise that emotionally I'd put my husband before my children...etc,etc
.

This doesn't answer the question at all and I don't know why you think I've put my husband before my children or how you can decide that etc?

My answer:  If I had a magic wand and could control other people's nasty, harmful behaviour, I would definately wave it around and put a stop to such things.  But that is a hypothetical, impossible dream.  I can't control other's behaviour and I know it.  I find that frustrating sometimes, especially when their behaviour is hurting me, or those close to me.  I can only deal with my own feelings and behaviour and do as T has said:  tough it out, go "through it" (or get away from it..if that is a possibilty).   I do hope that my abuser will some day make positive changes, but I'm not banking on it, or even optomistic about it.

I read your post and I see many assumptions and sorry to say, judgements.

and then...
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I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter, I really don't.


That might be the best idea.  I thought the topic of discussion was the use or uselessness of the technique, coping mechanism, tool, whatever it's called-- of positive suggestion/statements, and the benefits/lack of in modifying behaviour?

T wrote:  
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Hopefully, GFN will not be offended, either, even if she finds my reply overly simplistic given the complexity of the situation.


Not in the least, T.  

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And hugs to Dear GFN, whatever her choice of action may ultimately be. She will know in her own heart what to do, when the time is right.


Thankyou T.  I'd rather call you non-T.

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #213 on: February 03, 2005, 04:10:39 PM »
GFN: who's love would you rather live the rest of your life with:

your husband's

or your childrens'?

It's that simple a choice. Yes it is. I don't need an answer. It's okay.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #214 on: February 03, 2005, 04:29:29 PM »
Guest:

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GFN: who's love would you rather live the rest of your life with:

your husband's

or your childrens'?


Lucky for me I don't have to make that choice.

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #215 on: February 03, 2005, 04:37:13 PM »
It's about time you used that particular skill, well done. The truth is too much sometimes, here. We don't want to know okay? Please don't talk about it here any more, please don't refer to things you can't talk about. And I won't. And she's not an N. She's damaged, like many of us. Truce.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #216 on: February 03, 2005, 04:50:44 PM »
Guest:

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It's about time you used that particular skill, well done.


Well thankyou Guest!  I wish I knew what you were talking about but I appreciate the compliment anyway, I think.

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The truth is too much sometimes, here. We don't want to know okay?


We who?

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She's damaged, like many of us.


Damaged?  Like broken goods?  Us?  Who?  What?

You are not broken Guest (since you said..us..I assume you are including you).  You're still here posting!  You may have wounds that need care but they will heal.

I accept your truce...although I'm not sure we were at war.  Were we?

I hope things are going well for you in your life, Guest, and I hope you will talk about your wounds and receive kind, understanding, helpful responses that will help to heal them.  I wish you the best.

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #217 on: February 03, 2005, 05:23:22 PM »
GFN - I think we have too many Guests in the House. Changing guest seems to be luego in a new groove (welcome back from your sadness, if I'm right) - but I am not familiar with the "new" guest.

Luego/Clint/Paella/Gawain/whatever, please settle on something so we can keep track.

New Guest, please choose some kind of sign off, if only to help reduse confusion and to help us establish a relationship with you, if that is what you want.

T

(Trouble-When-I-Need-To-Be, Tender-When-I-Can...How about that?)

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #218 on: February 03, 2005, 05:36:37 PM »
Yes, T,

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(Trouble-When-I-Need-To-Be, Tender-When-I-Can...How about that?)


That's much better, imo.

Giggle For Now
Gone For 'Notherbit
Get Freaking Nasty (just kidding)

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #219 on: February 03, 2005, 09:42:01 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous

As I tell my daughter when she has trouble with peers and the gossip chain: It sucks that you have to go through this now, and I wish I could fix it, but this is the nature of 5th grade. Remember, though, that people have short memories. If you just suck it up for a few days, someone else will inevitably do or say something that makes someone else's foibles the center of attention for a while. It's just the way it is.

T


For goodness sake T! What are you teaching your daughter by this attiitude? "Ride it out till the abusers move on to new supply."

You are actually training her to not confront and challenge abuse. To not have that 'I' voice you so often speak of.

That is quite a contradiction to so many of your self-posts here.  So, you don't believe in encouraging and guiding and supporting your daughter to stand up for her own rights or her own dignity? That's how it reads to me. By this attidude you are moulding her to have the same difficulties in life that you are currently facing.

Can't you come up with more creative and proactive solutions for your daughter to employ when she faces adversity at school than simplistically saying 'just suck it in'?

A variation of that same attitude is a very outmoded male style of parenting, usually with their sons which produced men who wouldn't and couldn't get in touch with or share their feelings.

T! You're supposed to be a thinking person/parent. That's what you claim. Have you thought this strategy through to it's obvious conclusions? What if she carries that attiude you are reinforcing forward into her adulthood? What about when she marries? Will you say if she tells you that her husband is treating her badly 'Just suck it in'? Would that be sufficient then?


School days and early socialising is where we can really help our children to understand and manage relationship dynamics. Wise and involved parents use their kids mini-dramas at school to discuss and develop healthy relationship skills.  

'Just suck it in' is lazy and simplistic.  I wonder how her head and tummy is feeling for those few days while she is sucking it in? I wonder if it is affecting her sleep or eating over those few days? Of course, I guess if she's successfully sucking it in, you probably wouldn't know the answers to these questions.

'Just suck it in'. Simplistic lazy answers from simplistic distorted psycholgy an empowered child do not make!  

Any benefit to the child or growth of the child is both limited and accidental when this is their foundation.

Joseph

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #220 on: February 04, 2005, 09:20:52 AM »
Joseph:

thank you for your concern. As I did not give too many details or illuminate the history of all the times I have helped her find constructive and creative ways to "fight back", I guess I can see why you may feel that I'm engaging in some "bad parenting".

It is a little more complex than my post would suggest.

Although there have been many times when she (with or without a little help) has been sucessful in redirecting bully-types who are picking on her directly (and she does not hesitate to stick up for herself under those conditions), the illustration I used in my post was drawn from 2 specific situations:

1 - Serial Reproduction Rumours:

First Statement: H was talking to her friend G today (factual).
Second person/statment: H likes (in that scary boy-girl way) G.
Third Person/Statement: G and H are going together.
Fourth Person Statemnt: G and H were holding hands at recess.
etc, etc.

Only the first statement is true, but due to the dramatic nature of fifth grade romantic fascinations, the significance, meaning and intesity of H & G's relationship has been magnified in extremis. If one person (the second person in the chain) decides to embellish a bit for entertainment/nefarious purposes, the rumour quickly snowballs - and even by the end of the first day it is all true in the minds of said dramatically motivated fifth graders - except for those who know her and G well. As I explained to H, in many cases, these kids are secretly wishing they were in exactly such a relationship, and are using the idea of her and G as a fantasy substitute. Maybe not fair, but really, really typical.

It would be a waste of time for H to approach each and every child who has heard the rumour and protest, since she, G and those closest to both of them know the real truth anyway. In this case, as other kids observe for the next few days, the truth will out itself without her help, since she and G are simply friends and talk and play sometimes but not always, and certainly are not holding hands and gazing longlingly into each other's eyes on the playground. She need only reply factually if confronted with any of the above statements.

Plus - as I said - give it 2-3 days and someones else will become the center of attention and it will be forgotten.

On the second day after receiving this advice, she came back laughing and said, "You were right - now everybody's talking about so-and-so, and that's not really true, either. It's all so very silly."

2. Factual rumours about private things:

H started menstruating a couple of months ago. She of course decided to tell her "best friends", and soon (as not too many fifth graders can sit on such a "secret" for long, especially girls who are thinking about when it will happen to them), "everybody knew", causing much tears and distress for H.

In this case, I had to talk to her about the idea that if you TRULY want it to be a complete secret, then you cannot, at least in the fifth grade (and often into adulthood), tell even your best friend. Once you make that mistake and your secret is out, there is nothing you can do other than adjust to the fact that you made a mistake and now everyone knows your business. And again, as soon as someone else starts (H is the first in her school this year), that will be the big topic. At this point, you can only be patient and wait for the cameras to pan elsewhere.

The point I was making was about social damage - sometimes, it is really beyond our control and has a life of its own. However, truth will almost always win out, even if it takes a while.

I hope this helps your perspective some.

T

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #221 on: February 04, 2005, 10:05:11 AM »
I should add that I do not view these typically fifth-grade behaviors as abusive. These behaviors, while a royal pain, are very developmentally normal. These kids are acting out/rehearsing for adult situations, imagining being in love in a "safe" way, for example , and also learning to fight back where appropriate, but also maintaining one's composure while others act like fruitcakes and over-dramatize every little bit of sensation that comes down the pike.

One anecdote re: "true" bullying you may appreciate:

When in 3rd grade, Hannah was daily encountering a younger student who was enjoying calling everyone, including H, "ugly" H was not only appalled at the statment, but also by the fact that this was a second-grader (she still like s to think of younger children as inevitably innocent and sweet).

We came up with a pretty humorous solution that actually worked. The child never did say it to H or even in fron of H again:

Child X: "You Ugly."
H: "I know, it stinks but I gotta live with it. But hey - you're ugly, too. Wanna start an ugly club? Then we won't have to be lonely anymore. You can be president!" H is actually very pretty, and the other child was not at all ugly, either, so this highlighted the pointlessness and silliness of the statements.

Silence followed, and H never did hear that from her again, although eventually they talked "nicely" to each other while waiting in car-pool.

We did, however, discuss how unfortunate it was that his child had probably learned this from a sibling or, possibly and even worse, an adult in her life.

Anytime we discuss "true" bullying, we not only examine the effects on the receiver, but also the motivations of the bully. She had a few experieces this year with another girl in her class, who was constantly belittling and insulting to H and others. Fist, we talked about how this behavior was not exclusive to H, so it wasn't really personal. We then discussed how awful this girl must feel about herself if she had toptear down others to feel powerful. Then we discussed practical solutions.

H first tried being very direct, as in "This is just mean and what you're saying isn't even true. Stop.". This did not work, so Hannah decided to try a variation on the above scanario - she would just say "Okay, X, whatever you say", calmly and without any emotional reaction, and walk away. That worked. Sometimes, bullies just give up if you don't get upset, since mostly what they want is to feel powerful - they really don't dislike the victim (they don't care who they pick on), they just want to make someone else feel small so they can feel big.

X no longer bothers her, and has in fact become friendly. H has come home saying "Wow - X has really changed. She's actually nice now, and even compliments me."

No one solution applies in every situation. What I try to teach H is to read others for their motivations, and let that be her guide in determining which solution will be most effective. And I remind her the that she can always choose not to play; disengaging altogether is sometimes the only solution, although you can ususally find a way to stop bullying cold.

It's not easy, and sometimes requires us to engage in some manner of tit-for-tat, but that is not usually a good solution - only serving to amplify the situation. However, if H can be confident about who she is, the value of her skills, her value as an individual person - then in really won't matter one way or the other in the end.

As I explained to her, the bullies I knew in school, top dogs though they were at the time, have not gone on to any remarkable achievements in adult life. The ones I've heard since about are in dead-end jobs, have problems with marriages, alcohol, money and everythig else. Do what you can without becoming a bully yourself, but all else fails, keep this understanding close to your heart: The Abusees are the ones who have gone on to great things, because instead of inflating their own egos at the expense of others, they have expanded their minds and capabilities for their own benefits, leaving those sad, sad bullies in the dust.

Sometimes, it's just the way it is.


Know your friends, but know your enemies better.

T

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #222 on: February 04, 2005, 12:20:00 PM »
Hi T:

Back to the title of this topic, sort of, (also relates to bullying, as I suspect was your husband's behaviour too, right?)

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In my husband's case, there was a long period when I believed that change was not possible, that he would never come to understand how his behavior (the result of his inner terror) was harmful and unjustifiable, nor ever face himself and take responsibility for his actions and his own self-perceptions.

However, he ultimately did do all those things.


How did your husband do these things?  How did he get to that point?
What helped him get it?

GFN

PS:  The biggest parenting skill is communication, isn't it?  It really sounds to me like you're nailing it just fine!!  I love the name you picked for your daughter!  It's beautiful!

bunny

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #223 on: February 04, 2005, 12:48:02 PM »
My niece (2nd grade) has told me some appalling things that kids say to each other. It sounds like they are mimicking their parents and it sounds pretty bad when children say bossy and mean things. But it's normal. When she tells me about distressing things that happen at school I've empathized with her feelings of anger, hatred, jealousy, etc. Then she thinks of her own solution to the problem. But she's a lot younger than 5th grade so it's not as complex yet.

bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #224 on: February 04, 2005, 02:07:12 PM »
Bunny, I had forgotten just how wacky fifth grade can be! My mother was so different with me - mostly just saying "turn the other cheek" and not talking about solutions or giving credence to my angst. I feel vindicated knowing that I can be a help to my daughter - by realistically letting her know when she's a contributor to her own problem, but also letting her know when it's not about her and she doesn't deserve it - and best of all, helping her learn to handle it. More and more, she comes home with stories of how she thought quickly and on her feet when bulllied, whithout my help.

In one case, a boy was picking on her everyday in the hall, in front of his buddies, trying to make himself look important. She just looked at him one day, in front of the same friends, and said "I can see you really need my attention right now. Perhaps yopu don't get enough at home? What can I do to help?". Although I think in one way, it was a little harsh (maybe it was true, poor thing), it was also extremely effective and not a little bit funny. She said he turned bright red and didn't speak to her again for a week. Now he just behaves respectfully. And his buddies have remained respectful also. She says that boy is her friend now, sometimes. They play softball at recess.

Yes, GFN - bullying is a problem with my husband. It isn't constant, never was except for the year he ran off abruptly and had his meltdown (It defies imagination, the things he did and said at that time). Before that, I never named it as such, I just kind of got through the moment, either by dissolving or lashing back, and then got back to life afterwards.

He is and was often loving and tolerant (but sometimes moody and impatient, too - as he still is), but sometimes the bullying creeps back in if he's feeling nervous or uptight. I think on some level, he was never prepared for open conflict as a child (unlike me, who had conflict on an hourly basis, practically), so resorts to bullying (the child's way) rather than discussion, openess, and negotiation to get his points across.

What caused him to change his ways significantly, if imperfectly, was the realization that he was subjecting himself to serious personal losses. He states that the "golden moment" was when he realized that I would not ever be his friend again (I certainly thought that was the case at the time, and was staying as distant as humanly possible). At H's (slipped up ther, didn't I? That name is her father's pick, actually, but it is a good one) softball game, I brought the glove he had always used, smiled in front of others, but did not smile when I gave it to him at the car after the game, even as he was trying to be smiley with me. It was then, he says, that he realized that expecting me to care for him, like him, respect him et al was ridiculous, given what he was doing and how he used any and every means to justify it.

At that point, he went and got a therapist. This helped some, and the continuing explorations we share about the dynamic patterns of our childhoods also help, especially if he is escalating. This usually brings him back under control, if I can remember not to curl up into a ball, to stand up head-to-head and let him know that bullying won't be tolerated but that his feelings do matter, and then to address it with patience and understanding.

I wasn't able to convince him to change (I had already given up and was working at moving on) by negotiating, but I think the fact that my boundaries were clear, I had washed my hands of it all and didn't want anything to do with him more than was necessary, and wouldn't talk to him about his life ("I have nothing to offer yopu on this or any other subject aside from H's concerns. Perhaps you should talk to your girlfriend, instead") made him take notice.

To be hones, I was shocked when he called me some weeks after that softball game and asked if he could come talk to me - if I could get a sitter so that H wouldn't have to listen. I questioned him about his motives (I'm not interested in another rehash of the past, thank you. You have a life you seem to like (I really didn't believe that, BTW), why don't you just enjoy that and leave me out of it?), but he sounded very sincere and pretty chagrined in hi tone, so I decided to listen.

He came to see me that night. We sat in the living room (all his photos put away in drawers, except for the one in H's room), and he proceeded to tell me, crying, that he was sorry, That he had done some horrible things because he felt so out of control. That the girlfriend was just a prop to help him make himself feel better, but it hadn't worked. Nor had the rock star times(he was quite successful for a little bit). And that he was tired of tryiong to think he was right when he knew he was hurting so many people, especially me and H. And lastly, that he had ditched the girlfriend

(who - imagine this - had the gall to call me and complain how this was hurting her children!!!! Another story - you want N? I can give you N!!!! Perhaps I never speak of her, really, because I am not past my labeling and still sometimes give her too much power in my own mind. She was my "friend", and opportunistically inserted herself when his success was imminent and our marriage strained).

He said he knew he had no right to ask, but that I remained the best friend he had ever had, and could I think about trying again.

We both cried a lot that night, and many other nights to come we would cry more.

So we tried, a little at a time, for a few months, eventually moving back in together.

It's not perfect, but it's better - and it gets better in fits and starts all the time.

I feel relieved - because to me, he is also the best friend that I've ever had. That was the greates loss for me.

T