Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

Ah, yes - up to me, GFN. Working every day, getting closer all the time.

As for talking with my husband, Bunny, we're pretty close when we're not in conflict. In our case, it's helpful to talk about it. We do respect each other when one declines, but that really doesn't happen. We've always been pretty open about these things. He needs to know I love his sad, twisted liitle boy as much as I need to know he loves my sad, twisted little girl. We help each other this way: by acknowledging and accepting those un-pretty parts as deserving of love, too...or so it is as long as we aren't BEING those sad, twisted liitle people. I never touch it under those conditions, I wait until things are better.

My top mind, the non-reptilian grown up mind, is pretty darn sound. Underneath, it's a tricky jungle, where sometimes a branch is a branch, and sometimes a branch is a waiting anaconda (poetic description, not hallucinations!!!!!).

T

[bunny]

I don't mean that you shouldn't talk with him about your daughter, about yourselves, your childhoods, etc.  I meant to say, I would leave alone the question of what he does in his therapy. I think that there is a boundary on a spouse's therapy. If he brings it up, that's one thing. But for you to bring it up is crossing a boundary. You may think it's not and that's okay. I happen to believe that this boundary is best left alone for the sake of that person's therapy. Maybe I totally misunderstood that this was what you were going to ask.

The reason I was advised to not talk about my MIL is that she is indeed a very powerful person in his life, he is extremely enmeshed with her (dead or alive), and that any discussion about her will send him to a place that is completely emotional. It won't help the marriage. Only let therapists talk to him about his mother, and let them take the fallout. It's way over my head. I happen to agree with this and it seems to have worked.

bunny

[Anonymous]

You must have misunderstood - I had no plan to ask him what was said or done specifically, although sometimes he volunteers som of this, but instead to ask him if addressing this stuff was benefical to him. Sort of a different question.

Agina, we're pretty open, although only rarely does either of ask specific questions about "what the therapist said".

T

[Anonymous]

GFN - about ‘negative thoughts’. Someone who was beaten as a child goes on to beat their own child because, they say, ‘it never did me any harm’. One day they beat their child and think ‘this is wrong, I’m being bad and cruel’. Is that a negative thought? Should they push that thought from their minds and repeat the denial ‘it never did me any harm’? Or is it a positive thought? Or is it just a thought? For your consideration.

You said

My objective is to feel better.

I understand this and I'm going to back right off, I don’t think you want me asking about your motivations, fears etc. From what you’ve said, you seem to have a good idea of what the future holds, you are resigned to whatever happens to your relationships with your children and there seems to be no way that the situation with your current ‘abuser’ is going to change. So it seems straight in your mind to me and I can also see given this that ‘feeling better’ is a logical objective.

My objective is to understand, myself and others. I don’t want to control others’ behaviour, in fact I think behaviour is like boats on an ocean. I’m interested in why the boats move as they do, what makes the waves move and what’s underneath the surface. I think our objectives are very different.

Guest For Now. Why ‘For Now’? I admit I thought you might be a member I know from quite a while back. I’ve been asking questions half-based on that idea. Now I realise it doesn’t matter to me, something changed.


T - luego (later, dude) got sad and tired I’m afraid and Guest with no name was thinking of Clint Eastwood as The Man With No Name in the Sergio trilogy, spaghetti westerns shot in Italy? No, Spain! More ‘paella’ westerns perhaps. Fantastic music, haunting, comical, soul-soaring stuff. So achingly manipulative music that it becomes ironic, but ironic with real emotion, the tragic-comedy of life itself. Yeah. Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit makes me cry, talking of emotion. What makes you cry?

Changing Guest?

[Anonymous]

Hello All, Hi Changing Guest (CG?),

Previously, I wrote:

It's good to deny negative, nasty, unrealistic thoughts about oneself, I think. It's different if I have said or done something wrong and know it (then I might look harder at the why's and how to prevent again's--but even then....berrating myself with derogator thoughts won't "solve the problem").

Someone who is beating their child is doing something wrong.  The key words above are "and know it" and "unrealistic thoughts", in regard to the situation of someone beating their child.  If they believe the beatings they received as a child didn't do them any harm then they do not know that the behaviour is wrong.  If suddenly, they learn that their behaviour is wrong and their first thoughts are..."I'm bad and cruel", is this realistic and will it help them to change?

The behaviour is bad and cruel.  The lack of knowing that something is wrong is ignorance.  But the person who is unaware that they are doing something wrong is not bad or cruel.  That person is ignorant of facts.  If they continuously repeat, over and over to themselves:  "I'm bad and cruel", will this help them to change their behaviour?

Some might argue it could.  Yes possibly, and it could also accelerate it.  "I'm bad and cruel anyway, so I might as well keep behaving badly and cruelly", may be their next, repetitive, unrealistic thought.

Instead:  If the first time they realize that they are doing something wrong...they say to themselves:  "I didn't know that!  Oh no!  What have I done?  I've behaved very badly and cruelly!  But I can change!  I'm not a bad or cruel person.  I will do all I can to change my behaviour."

Will this have an effect on their behaviour?  Isn't it the behaviour, in this case, that needs attention, that is the problem.  Will berrating one's self-esteem by repeating negative words to oneself help or hinder this process?

CG wrote:  

I don’t want to control others’ behaviour

That is impossible.  We can only control our own behaviour, which you probably know and meant to say?  I believe, one of the best ways to do that, to control our own behaviour, is to be kind to ourselves.  We've been treated badly enough already.

also:  

My objective is to understand, myself and others.

How do you know that this is not also, one of my objectives? My suggestions on behaviour modification and positive thinking seem to have struck a nerve, for you, possibly?  I won't ask you any details but it might be something to consider, if you wish.  I don't think we're so different.  I do think the technique sounds too simple to work but from personal experience, I have found it only to be a help.

Even if one does do something wrong.....the best way to fix that is to work on the behaviour, not beat oneself up about it.  We have been programmed to believe that we deserve punishment because we are bad, horrible, evil, stupid, whatever....(and that we were the problem in the relationship with people who behave like N's, our abusers).  They wanted us to think negative things about ourselves, if we did not behave perfectly and for most, they succeeded in teaching us to think that way.  It is impossible to behave perfectly, so they had an easy job convincing us and planting their stuff in our heads.  Do you think many of us have this in common?  I do.  We need to teach ourselves, reprogram ourselves, to think differently, in order to improve our emotional statis and our view of ourselves, imo.

I see your point about understanding our behaviour and that of others.  I'm not sure if you believe I have tried to do that, or not, or how you came to your belief?

I do like concrete information, stuff that can be done to help repair damage and to improve emotional well-being.  That's what really attracted me to the "technique" to begin with, because my self-esteem was very low and I felt like such a loser that I wanted to die.  Learning to simply repeat positive statements to myself and to catch myself  using unrealistic, negative descriptions about and to myself....helped improve my state greatly.  Understanding how I got to be in that state to begin with was enlightening but didn't repair a thing for me.

Guest For Now. Why ‘For Now’?

This just feels right, for now.

[Anonymous]

GFN, wrote:

CG wrote:

Quote:
I don’t want to control others’ behaviour

That is impossible. We can only control our own behaviour, which you probably know and meant to say? I believe, one of the best ways to do that, to control our own behaviour, is to be kind to ourselves. We've been treated badly enough already.

But GFN has written throughout this thread:

the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are.

the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour

I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over.

all implying that if you could, you'd control their behaviour.

when the abuse was in remission

are you in nursing or similar?

[Anonymous]

- luego (later, dude) got sad and tired I’m afraid and Guest with no name was thinking of Clint Eastwood as The Man With No Name in the Sergio trilogy, spaghetti westerns shot in Italy? No, Spain! More ‘paella’ westerns perhaps. Fantastic music, haunting, comical, soul-soaring stuff. So achingly manipulative music that it becomes ironic, but ironic with real emotion, the tragic-comedy of life itself. Yeah. Billie Holiday singing Strange Fruit makes me cry, talking of emotion. What makes you cry?

I have brought my own self to tears playing that one several times. Never a more naked, wrenching and honest peom - and the jusxtaposition against the delicately simple and beautiful melody/chords makes it all the more powerful. The Monster and the Angel carry the truth in four hands...as it is within for most of us, should we only look and see.

Unitl a few years ago, nothing much made me cry, aside from fury - and then only a tiny tear or two. No big sobbing, snotty, drooling releases, just a bone-dry well with a liitle condensation near the lip. I was tough as nails. After a harrowing marital experiecne four years ago, I cried every day for a year and frequently thereafter - much to make up for, in my estimation. I stopped crying as a child, perhaps by age 11 or so, as it was useless - no one heard it as pain, only as a reason to attack, a weakness, a flaw.

What makes me cry now is repeats of that with my husband, who becomes alarmed by cracks in my armor (not what he was used to previously), sad movies and novels, Mark Twain's essays on war and marginalization, the child down the street whose mother hits him with fryng pans (now in a group home), the parts of my life lost to the experieces of the last few years (and all the years before), my fear that I will not be able to do, in my newfound weakened and cry-baby state,  all that I need to do for myself, my daughter, my life. I might cry if someone serves me Paella, as I hate tomatoes and chicken wings, but probably not.

I cry for the kid who stopped crying.

Learning to simply repeat positive statements to myself and to catch myself using unrealistic, negative descriptions about and to myself....helped improve my state greatly. Understanding how I got to be in that state to begin with was enlightening but didn't repair a thing for me.

Again, I think both approaches are valid - but I'd like to add that I think they work best in conjunction, applied as needed/appropriate to the moment. To wax all arty for a moment, a a marriage of form (behavioral) and function (psychoanalytical).

T

Now and then there was a little thirst for something
back when dangerous hope grew green and tall
on just a sliver on sunlight and a thimble full of mist
when the reservoir was full

There was appetite
but never, no, not ever hunger
we'd drown in slow delight to find
it was enough to taste the water, spit it out

but now the well has gone bone dry
and raindrops, they startle
against bare stone
at the end of a long, black road...

[Anonymous]

quick note back because I've got to get going.

I think my wording may have been off a bit.

I feel frustrated knowing that I can't contol anyone else's behaviour other than my own.  I know that there is no way to stop the person from behaving as they choose (in my case, causing harm to me etc).   That is up to them.  I have the knowledge and understanding of this fact and my own feeling to deal with...which is frustration, etc.

I'm afraid that the harm being caused might end up being severe.

I don't believe I was implying anything.  I wish the person would come to their own understanding of the harm they are causing to others and attend to their own behaviour.   If I could control their behaivour???

What would you do?

GFN

[Anonymous]

What would I do? Really? Really?

I'd apologise, genuinely and sincerely.

I'd realise that emotionally I'd put my husband before my children. I'd realise that this was a mistake and yes, we all do things we regret. One mistake doesn't make us bad. You are not bad or wrong, if anything you try too hard to make it okay for everyone. Sometimes we have to make tough choices.

I'd realise that the people I would most love to have by my side when I'm dying are my children. Because I am going to die.

We take responsibility for our actions,
we recognise when we have made mistakes,
we apologise for those mistakes,
and we are forgiven by those who love us, and who want our love.

Your children want your love.

We recognise when we have to choose between people, because not everyone sees things as we do. We protect and care for our children first. That is our primary job on this planet.

I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter, I really don't.

[Anonymous]

Accept, then rebuild your psychic "house" with new locks for which he has no key.

Trying to "stop" him or minimize his potential future damage by playing ball, IMO, will not protect you - it will only prolong your agony. Let him, even encourage him, to do his worst, then his power over the future thereafter is gone.

If he is still holding cards, let him play them and preferably soon. As soon as he does so, he has given away the last of his real power to make you miserable.

Only then can you truly move on. You may be more miserable for a while, but it will be comparatively short-lived, as he will not be able to do more. The threat will be gone.

As I tell my daughter when she has trouble with peers and the gossip chain: It sucks that you have to go through this now, and I wish I could fix it, but this is the nature of 5th grade. Remember, though, that people have short memories. If you just suck it up for a few days, someone else will inevitably do or say something that makes someone else's foibles the center of attention for a while. It's just the way it is.

I grant that adult memories are longer, but it works basically the same way.

That's what I would do. Accept it, face it, then pick up my own pieces and get on with life. Start repeating "Nerves of Steel" to yourself, in preparation. And to hell with the rest of them, so short-sighted and shallow as to buy into his crap. They may ultimately learn the hard way, just as you have.

T

[Anonymous]

T, please, GFN's 'abuser' is not her husband (or partner). This is an exceptionally complex situation.

[Anonymous]

I gathered that, but I think the same principle can apply anywhere, spouse or not.

That is what I would do, in any case. Which was the question, no?

Everyone has to find their own way, for sure - I would not have ventured a suggestion such as this in absence of the direct question.

T

[Anonymous]

(Are you sure you attributed the right post to me? Mine is signed T, I don't know who the other poster with the "husband" reference is - no offense to that poster intended).

[Anonymous]

If he is still holding cards, let him play them and preferably soon

T - GFN's 'abuser' is gender neutral at this point. It is GFN's story and I do not intend telling her story.

Your advice does not make sense given GFN's story on your thread.

Guest

[Anonymous]

Arbitray gender choice, since is not stated. From what I have gleaned, GFN feels threats of further emotional harm and social intimidation (as she attributes a lot of power to do so to the "they"), but is not forthcoming on the details. In the absence of such details, these are the most saleint thoughts I can offer. I only expect that she will apply them if she sees any possiblity that it fits her situation. I would not feel harm if she chose to ignore the advice, as my picture - and yours (unless you have a PM thing going on and have more information, and no  - I'm not asking) - are incomplete.

Sometimes the only way around "it" is through "it", I think. Bruising and hurtful as that may be, at least you get to the other side eventually. Just hanging around in a perpetual hope that "they" will see the error of their ways and stop whatever "it" is can prolong the inevitable, sometimes.

Did I offend you somewhow by giving my answer? I certainly did not intend to. Hopefully, GFN will not be offended, either, even if she finds my reply overly simplistic given the complexity of the situation.

T